My Extensive Research on Roman Catholicism

[Buff Scott Jr.]

REFORMATION RUMBLINGS
BUFF SCOTT, JR.
____________________

The Apostate System Paul
Described

Identifying This Apostate System​

Needless to say, there was no apostate system within the Christian movement until Catholicism began to germinate in about the second or third century. There were local pockets of apostasy, but no general apostasy until 2-3 hundred years later. It was at that time that Roman Catholicism bloomed to stardom. These passages do not refer to Nero and the Judiazers, because this apostate system was to develop within the redeemed community (Acts 20:29-30).​

Note the marks of this apostate system, as recorded in 2 Thessalonians, chapter 2, and then tell me which ecclesiastical institution bears these marks.​

• He will exalt himself over God.
• He will set himself up in God’s place.
• He will claim to be God.
• He’ll do counterfeit miracles and every sort of evil.
• He’ll continue his dirty work until the Lord comes again.

It is vital to understand that no apostate system in history bears these marks except the Roman Papacy. Keep in mind there was no general apostasy from the Christian faith, and no widespread abandonment of heaven’s new arrangement, during the first century. This being the case, the counterfeit system Paul described—Roman Catholicism—still exists for Jesus has not returned and “overthrown it with the breath of his mouth and destroyed it by the splendor of his coming” (v. 8).​

Who Is The “Holy Father”?​

When the Roman Empire lost its grip upon the nations, Catholicism began to blossom. From then on, its leaders sat in “God’s temple [place], proclaiming [themselves] to be God” (v. 4). That’s why this system’s popes expect to be called “Holy Father” or God himself. But here’s proof positive that Catholic popes consider themselves God:​

“That which was spoken of Christ...‘Thou hast subdued all things under His feet,’ may well seem verified in me. I have the authority of the King of kings. I am all in all and above all, so that God, Himself and I, the Vicar of God, have but one consistory, and I am able to do almost all that God can do. What therefore, can you make of me but God?” (The Bull Sanctum, Nov. 18, 1302, found in the registers of Boniface VIII in the Vatican archives, “Reg. Vatic.,” L, Fol. 387, The Catholic Encyclopedia, © 1913 by the Encyclopedia Press, Inc.)​

 

[Buff Scott Jr.]

“Holy” or “Unholy Fathers”?​

The Catholic Hierarchy has paid out billions of dollars to settle cases of sexual molestation and homosexuality. How unholy must these “Holy Fathers” (popes) become before they lose their “holiness”? How unfaithful must these “Holy Fathers” become before “the faithful” become a laughingstock of the nations? If this is what Jesus founded, I’ll settle for atheism instead. But praise His Name, He did not usher in a religious system that is and has been pregnant with all manner of evil from its very genesis. But here is more data about the Catholic Papacy and her practices and teachings:​

• It was not until after the fifth century the Roman Church was completely organized. She did not have an Archbishop until the end of the fourth century, and it was centuries later before she had Cardinals and Popes (Catholic Ency., Vol. IX, p. 61, and Catholic Ency., Vol. IV, p. 44). Yet this “Holy See” claims that her Popes and Cardinals can be traced back to the first century A. D. and that Peter was the first Pope. This is Catholicism against itself.​
• According to Ancient Civilizations, (2002, Times Books), between 327-750 A. D., Rome, Antioch, and Alexandria had Bishops who were major figures, but no pope yet. The Bishop of Rome claimed preeminence as the direct successor of Peter.​
• “The religious use of incense was unknown in the primitive Church” (Cath. Dic., p. 437).​
• “In the Middle Ages and in modern times various sects have repudiated infant baptism. It is difficult to give strict proof from Scripture in favor of it” (Catholic Dic., p. 61).​
• Infants were not baptized during the early years of the Christian community. “There is no express mention of the baptizing of infants in the New Testament” (Question Box, p. 243).​
• When the Catholic sect began to teach the doctrine of original sin in the fourth and fifth centuries, it became necessary to initiate infant baptism. “When in the fourth and fifth centuries the doctrine of original sin and consequently the necessity of baptism for all became better known, the practice of infant baptism progressed rapidly” (Legislation on the Sacraments in the New Code of Canon Law, p. 72).​
• The use of “Holy Water” and incense was borrowed from the pagans. “Moreover, the use of holy water and incense was also no doubt suggested by similar customs amongst pagans around them” (Catholic Ency., Vol. III, p. 76).​

 

[Buff Scott Jr.]

Naming The Religious System​

We now know without any question the “critter” the apostle Paul prophesied of when he said a religious system would arise that would “exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshipped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple [place], proclaiming himself to be God” (2 Thess. 2:1-12). Again, there is no religion that has ever existed that fits this description except the Roman Papacy. About 300 years after the Christian community was ushered in, she raised her ugly head to deceive multitudes. She is still deceiving multitudes.​

"Holy Father"​

Catholics need to realize the term “Holy Father” is used only once in the scriptures, and it refers only to God the Father (John 17:11). Not even Jesus was called Holy Father. To apply this holy term to a mere man, such as the pope, is the worst kind of blasphemy. Again, no religious system in history fits the description Paul gives except Catholicism.​

 

[Buff Scott Jr.]

Forbidding Marriage & Certain Foods​

This is the same apostate system Paul said would forbid marriage and order their followers to abstain from certain foods. Listen to the great apostle Paul.

“The Spirit clearly says that in later [future] times some will abandon the faith [apostatize] and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons....They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth” (1 Timothy 4:1-4)

Not long after Paul’s death the “holiness” of an unmarried life began to be taught in the Christian community and eventually resulted in a celibate clergy. The ascetic practice was later extended to foods. These descriptions and symptoms of an apostasy apply only to one religious order—the Catholic Papacy. And none of these practices materialized until two to three centuries after Jesus and His apostles ushered in the community of faith. It was at that time that an apostate system, Catholicism, made her formal entrance—as per the historical record.​

Speaking Clearly​

Forgive me for being so blunt at this point, but I am compelled to speak what is upon my heart. In truth, the Catholic sect is half paganistic and half Judaistic. Even the “smoke bomb” [as I call it] priests dangle around the Eucharist is paganistic. Other ritualistic practices are just as weird and “out of this world.” These paganistic rituals do not express heaven’s wishes or symbolize God’s will. They are foreign innovations.​

 

[Buff Scott Jr.]

In A Nutshell​

We will now consolidate everything up to this point. I ask you to review the following items carefully for their authenticity, based upon the data that has been presented.​

• The Roman Catholic Church’s genesis cannot be traced back to the first century A. D.​
• As an apostate system, she developed gradually and began to be seen as a visible entity in the second and third centuries A. D.​
• She has a colorful history—one that is pregnant with immorality, sexual perversions, child molestations, and doctrinal corruptions.​
• She is half paganistic and half Judaistic, and almost zero authentic true Christianity.​
• She is the apostate system the apostle Paul predicted would develop and promote all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs, and wonders.​
• There is not, nor has ever been, any religious system in history that is pertinent to Paul’s prophesies except Roman Catholicism.​
• There were no Popes, Cardinals, or Archbishops in the first century A. D.​
• Peter is never referred to as a pope. He could not have been a pope because the apostle Paul “opposed him to his face” (Galatians 2:11-12).​
• If Peter was pope, he should have been Paul’s superior. But it was Paul who opposed Peter. Even the Catholic Bible has Paul opposing Peter.​
• The Catholic Church and her leaders violate the same scriptures they profess to have written.​
• The new covenant scriptures were composed by the apostles and first century believers, not by Roman Catholics.​
• The scriptures were composed two to three centuries prior to Catholicism’s birth.​

If listeners and viewers were so gullible as to not be able to see the difference between reporting the news and media evangelism, then I fear for our country. It is on a course that will take us back to the Dark Ages when the Roman Catholic’s “Holy See” dominated, repressed, ruled, and manipulated a large segment of the then-known world—during which time they persecuted and murdered hundreds of thousands of non-Catholics who refused to bow their knees to the Papacy in Rome.​

This is history—plain, concise history. Go to your Public Library and research the history of the Roman Catholic Church and your doubts will soon vanish. Why in heaven’s name do you think Martin Luther fled for his life? The Roman Hierarchy wanted to kill him because he saw the truth about the “Unholy See” and began to oppose it. As you know, Luther became a Catholic defector.​

When the day arrives that Catholicism becomes the predominant religion in America, as it is in South America, Spain, the Philippines, and other countries, that will be the day when Americans will regret having been so gullible, ignorant, unlearned, and “wet behind the ears.” But then it will be too late. Do you think for a moment the “Unholy See” in Rome would be any more tolerant toward us than they were toward non-Catholics during the Dark Ages, should they and their religion become the dominating influence in America? The answer is No!​

 

[donadams]

First error: no incense

1. Hebrews 9:4
   Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden potthat had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant;
2. Revelation 8:3
   And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
3. Rev5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

Thanks

 

[donadams]

Important to keep in mind that the new covenant was a reformation by Christ of the mosaic covenant so there will be many similarities!

Hebrews 9:10
Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

Thanks

 

[Mikeuk]

REFORMATION RUMBLINGS
BUFF SCOTT, JR.
____________________

The Apostate System Paul
Described

Identifying This Apostate System​

Needless to say, there was no apostate system within the Christian movement until Catholicism began to germinate in about the second or third century. There were local pockets of apostasy, but no general apostasy until 2-3 hundred years later. It was at that time that Roman Catholicism bloomed to stardom. These passages do not refer to Nero and the Judiazers, because this apostate system was to develop within the redeemed community (Acts 20:29-30).

Note the marks of this apostate system, as recorded in 2 Thessalonians, chapter 2, and then tell me which ecclesiastical institution bears these marks.​

• He will exalt himself over God.
• He will set himself up in God’s place.
• He will claim to be God.
• He’ll do counterfeit miracles and every sort of evil.
• He’ll continue his dirty work until the Lord comes again.

It is vital to understand that no apostate system in history bears these marks except the Roman Papacy. Keep in mind there was no general apostasy from the Christian faith, and no widespread abandonment of heaven’s new arrangement, during the first century. This being the case, the counterfeit system Paul described—Roman Catholicism—still exists for Jesus has not returned and “overthrown it with the breath of his mouth and destroyed it by the splendor of his coming” (v. 8).​

Who Is The “Holy Father”?​

When the Roman Empire lost its grip upon the nations, Catholicism began to blossom. From then on, its leaders sat in “God’s temple [place], proclaiming [themselves] to be God” (v. 4). That’s why this system’s popes expect to be called “Holy Father” or God himself. But here’s proof positive that Catholic popes consider themselves God:

“That which was spoken of Christ...‘Thou hast subdued all things under His feet,’ may well seem verified in me. I have the authority of the King of kings. I am all in all and above all, so that God, Himself and I, the Vicar of God, have but one consistory, and I am able to do almost all that God can do. What therefore, can you make of me but God?” (The Bull Sanctum, Nov. 18, 1302, found in the registers of Boniface VIII in the Vatican archives, “Reg. Vatic.,” L, Fol. 387, The Catholic Encyclopedia, © 1913 by the Encyclopedia Press, Inc.)​

There are 101 anti catholic myths and you have bought the lot.

The problem with repeating myths, is others like you repeat them.

Lets start with the fact sola scriptura is false, and you are told “ not to lean on your own understanding”
Jesus Appointed apostles to hand down the truth to their disciples. Thats paradosis “tradition”

He gave the power to bind and loose, give definitive judgement on disputes, which is how the council outed many heresies, and it’s how you have a New Testament too , the first canon was outlawed by Rome, and later councils gave the last say
Indeed the faith was passed by tradition because it cost years to copy one Bible, and few could read it.

That’s why the physucal church - the household of God - is the ” pillar and foundation of truth”
Whatever YOU think scripture means is irrelevant, sola scriptura was the doctrine that launched a thousand protestant schisms.
All the reformers disagreed with each other . The only thing they agreed on was anti rome.


So let’s see who has true doctrine.
As the Bible says only those “ who are sent” can tell you
We know what John 6 means because Jesus told John about the Eucharist , and so John passed that on to his disciples.
Those disciples left writings, so now read ignatius to Smyrneans ( or iraneus ) and you see a valid Eucharist is a Eucharist of the real body “ flesh” says Justin martyr. Valid only if presided by a bishop in succession. John 6 tell us its needed to be raised up on the last day, and for Jesus to abide in you.

Just like the Catholics and orthodox have always said ,

So unless you have that , you do not have the true faith, so do you?
do You have a true Eucharist.? listen to the early fathers.

Unkess you have the words AND true meaning you do not have the word of God, and you need the true church to tell you,
The only church that existed then !

We Catholics and orthodox have never changed the meaning of Eucharist.
Only reformers did that - Zwingli even profaned it , which led to one Eucharistic miracle. Sadly the reformers don’t even agree with each other on pretty much every aspect of faith, or the Eucharist so “ sola scriptura “ is not only false -( it’s a man made tradition, we know who made it ) it is also a provable #fail.
,

 

[Buff Scott Jr.]

First error: no incense

1. Hebrews 9:4
   Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden potthat had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant;
2. Revelation 8:3
   And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
3. Rev5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

Thanks

Donadams:

I'm not sure how your remarks are in any way aligned to my thread above. If you're trying to say that under Moses certain idols and graven images were worshipped/venerated and, therefore, certain idols and graven images under Jesus and the New Way are permissible. I apologize if I've mis-read you.

God said rather plainly in the Old Scriptures that idols and graven images are not to be worshiped/venerated or highly esteemed, and the same God has announced under Jesus the same restrictions. Anyway, feel free to clarify this matter for me, and correct me if I have misunderstood you.

 

[Buff Scott Jr.]

There are 101 anti catholic myths and you have bought the lot.

The problem with repeating myths, is others like you repeat them.

Lets start with the fact sola scriptura is false, and you are told “ not to lean on your own understanding”
Jesus Appointed apostles to hand down the truth to their disciples. Thats paradosis “tradition”

He gave the power to bind and loose, give definitive judgement on disputes, which is how the council outed many heresies, and it’s how you have a New Testament too , the first canon was outlawed by Rome, and later councils gave the last say
Indeed the faith was passed by tradition because it cost years to copy one Bible, and few could read it.

That’s why the physucal church - the household of God - is the ” pillar and foundation of truth”
Whatever YOU think scripture means is irrelevant, sola scriptura was the doctrine that launched a thousand protestant schisms.
All the reformers disagreed with each other . The only thing they agreed on was anti rome.


So let’s see who has true doctrine.
As the Bible says only those “ who are sent” can tell you
We know what John 6 means because Jesus told John about the Eucharist , and so John passed that on to his disciples.
Those disciples left writings, so now read ignatius to Smyrneans ( or iraneus ) and you see a valid Eucharist is a Eucharist of the real body “ flesh” says Justin martyr. Valid only if presided by a bishop in succession. John 6 tell us its needed to be raised up on the last day, and for Jesus to abide in you.

Just like the Catholics and orthodox have always said ,

So unless you have that , you do not have the true faith, so do you?
do You have a true Eucharist.? listen to the early fathers.

Unkess you have the words AND true meaning you do not have the word of God, and you need the true church to tell you,
The only church that existed then !

We Catholics and orthodox have never changed the meaning of Eucharist.
Only reformers did that - Zwingli even profaned it , which led to one Eucharistic miracle. Sadly the reformers don’t even agree with each other on pretty much every aspect of faith, or the Eucharist so “ sola scriptura “ is not only false -( it’s a man made tradition, we know who made it ) it is also a provable #fail.
,

Mikeuk:

In regards to my thread above, you noted, "There are 101 anti catholic myths and you have bought the lot. The problem with repeating myths, is others like you repeat them."

If all of my authoritative quotations from Catholic Popes, Bishops, and Cardinals are legitimate, and you accept them as truly honorable, then you are categorizing what you know or think to be truth as myths. Find me, then, one or more of the quotations that are myths, at which point I will reaffirm again that "Catholicism Is Against Itself."

 

[donadams]

Donadams:

I'm not sure how your remarks are in any way aligned to my thread above. If you're trying to say that under Moses certain idols and graven images were worshipped/venerated and, therefore, certain idols and graven images under Jesus and the New Way are permissible. I apologize if I've mis-read you.

God said rather plainly in the Old Scriptures that idols and graven images are not to be worshiped/venerated or highly esteemed, and the same God has announced under Jesus the same restrictions. Anyway, feel free to clarify this matter for me, and correct me if I have misunderstood you.

The golden censer and incense were used in the worship of God!

And there were image’s commanded by God but they were not idols or graven images

Brazen serpent

Numbers 21:9
And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.

Exodus 25:18
And thou shalt make two cherubims of gold, of beaten work shalt thou make them, in the two ends of the mercy seat.

Images are not forbidden only graven images worshipped as a god or idolatry

Thanks

 

[donadams]

I read Unam Sanctum

“One God, One Faith, One Spiritual Authority”

Pope Boniface VIII - 1302
Bull of Pope Boniface VIII

And never found these lines

“That which was spoken of Christ...‘Thou hast subdued all things under His feet,’ may well seem verified in me. I have the authority of the King of kings. I am all in all and above all, so that God, Himself and I, the Vicar of God, have but one consistory, and I am able to do almost all that God can do. What therefore, can you make of me but God?” (The Bull Sanctum, Nov. 18, 1302, found in the registers of Boniface VIII

Thanks

 

[Mikeuk]

Mikeuk:

In regards to my thread above, you noted, "There are 101 anti catholic myths and you have bought the lot. The problem with repeating myths, is others like you repeat them."

If all of my authoritative quotations from Catholic Popes, Bishops, and Cardinals are legitimate, and you accept them as truly honorable, then you are categorizing what you know or think to be truth as myths. Find me, then, one or more of the quotations that are myths, at which point I will reaffirm again that "Catholicism Is Against Itself."

The statements of Popes bishops and cardinals do not define dogma Any more than you do.

Only The Union of bishops - in council- or the pope speaking ex cathedra do that
with the - Jesus given - power to “bind and loose”. Ie give definitive answer on disputes.
Its how you have a New Testament, not the first heretical canons like marcions.

Nor does anyone in the true faith worship idols, and other nonsense you claim.

Now lets go back to basics -: the true faith was handed down. Paradosis . Tradition.
We know what it was in the first geberations, because Johns disciples wrote.

For example.
read ignatius to smyrneans.
So we know a valid Eucharist is of the real flesh, valid only if presided by bishop in succession.
They all believed it was real flesh , it’s why the romans thought they were cannibals!

All believed it till 1500 . Till the reformers tried to change it all .
Cathlics and orthodox never changed, because the truth does not change.


So do you have a valid Eucharist as above ? ? If not you are not in the true church which has never changed.


Your problem is the provable falsehood of sola scriptura - the man made tradition of the reformation.
It created 10000 schisms since even the first reformers disagree With each other on every major aspect of doctrine and have schismed ever since which is sad.



so my suggestion is listen to scripture when it says..
” lean not on your own understanding”
listen only to those who “ were sent”
So “ stay true to the tradition we taught you”
And so listen tio the “ pillar and foundation of truth” the physical church given the power to “ bind and loose”

Jesus said the gospel would be preached to the end of time. Not with a 2000 year gap till someone called buff rediscovered it.

Another suggestion is listen to the thousands of pastors and theologians who came back from all sections of protestant as a result of studying the early church.

Read my post on the roots of disagreement. The falsehood that is sola scriptura is one.

,

 

[Illuminator]

In A Nutshell​

We will now consolidate everything up to this point. I ask you to review the following items carefully for their authenticity, based upon the data that has been presented.blah, blah, blah...
​

...However, in the 1990s there was a significant anti-Catholic resurgence among some Protestants. This chiefly was due to two things:
(1) the number of ecumenical gestures Protestants, including many conservatives, made toward Catholics and
(2) a renaissance in Catholic apologetics that began to win large numbers of devout, conservative Protestant converts to Catholicism.

These two factors alarmed the anti-Catholic elements in conservative Protestantism, and a large number of new anti-Catholic books, tracts, tapes, and videos began to appear. Among the most significant of the current wave of anti-Catholic Protestants are Jack T. Chick, Dave Hunt, John MacArthur, John Ankerberg, and James McCarthy.

As the forgoing has indicated, anti-Catholicism is not static but changes over time. Even the arguments that are used against Catholics change over time. A hundred years ago, many Protestants charged that Catholics were unpatriotic because they resisted placing their children in American public schools. With the secularization of the American schoolroom, this argument has disappeared. With increasing secularism but also increasing ecumenism, it remains to be seen what shape anti-Catholicism will take in the future. It may happen that we will return to a situation like that of the first century, where Christians are persecuted indiscriminately of their denomination by a hostile, anti-Christian world.

The History of Anti-Catholicism

One of the most tenacious problems a Catholic apolog...

www.catholic.com

 

[Buff Scott Jr.]

The golden censer and incense were used in the worship of God!

And there were image’s commanded by God but they were not idols or graven images

Brazen serpent

Numbers 21:9
And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.

Exodus 25:18
And thou shalt make two cherubims of gold, of beaten work shalt thou make them, in the two ends of the mercy seat.

Images are not forbidden only graven images worshipped as a god or idolatry

Thanks

Donadams:

Here is what God says on the subject of erecting images and idols, the same passage I asserted earlier:

“Therefore, watch yourselves very carefully, so that you do not become corrupt and make for yourselves an idol, an image of any shape, whether formed like a man or a woman” (Deut. 4:15-16).

If your understanding of the Old Testament passages you inserted and quoted is correct, then you have God contradicting Himself. Is God a contradictory God? Your perception, as I see it, very definitely makes it so.

God is speaking of the images and statues and idols that are fashioned for religious, spiritual purposes! When statues or idols of Jesus, Mary, Joseph, the apostles or anyone else are made for religious, spiritual reasons, spiritual corruption and idolatry are the results. So says the God of creation. Within the confines of Catholicism, and occasionally Protestantism, are found all of the above—plus more. If this is not idolatry, I’ve lost my senses. “You shall not bow down to them or worship them” (Gen.20:5).

Common sense informs us that God is not talking about images and statues and sculptures of a political, historical, and social kind.

I would ask my Catholic friends again: What part of this don’t you understand? Even the Catholic Bible has God condemning images, statues, and idols that are made for religious, spiritual purposes. Yet Catholics violate the same scriptures they claim to support. Again, this is "Catholicism Against Itself."

But what about religious paintings? If I were to install a religious painting in a church structure, or in my home, for religious, theological purposes, as statues and images are installed in Catholic Churches, and bow down to it, yes, that would be worship or spiritual veneration. And that is precisely what has occurred with Catholic statutes and images. Or, if I were to get down upon my knees in front of a religious painting and pray to it, as Catholics pray to their statues and images, that would be worship/veneration.

One of my Catholic friends said, “There is no difference between what Catholics do and what Protestants do when they (Protestants) get down upon their knees to pray.” There’s a world of difference. Protestants bow and get down upon their knees to pray to a live and active God. Catholics bow, cross themselves, and pray to a lifeless, spiritless, and hollow piece of earthen material. Surely we can see the difference.​

 

[Mikeuk]

Donadams:

Here is what God says on the subject of erecting images and idols, the same passage I asserted earlier:

“Therefore, watch yourselves very carefully, so that you do not become corrupt and make for yourselves an idol, an image of any shape, whether formed like a man or a woman” (Deut. 4:15-16).

If your understanding of the Old Testament passages you inserted and quoted is correct, then you have God contradicting Himself. Is God a contradictory God? Your perception, as I see it, very definitely makes it so.

God is speaking of the images and statues and idols that are fashioned for religious, spiritual purposes! When statues or idols of Jesus, Mary, Joseph, the apostles or anyone else are made for religious, spiritual reasons, spiritual corruption and idolatry are the results. So says the God of creation. Within the confines of Catholicism, and occasionally Protestantism, are found all of the above—plus more. If this is not idolatry, I’ve lost my senses. “You shall not bow down to them or worship them” (Gen.20:5).

Common sense informs us that God is not talking about images and statues and sculptures of a political, historical, and social kind.

I would ask my Catholic friends again: What part of this don’t you understand? Even the Catholic Bible has God condemning images, statues, and idols that are made for religious, spiritual purposes. Yet Catholics violate the same scriptures they claim to support. Again, this is "Catholicism Against Itself."

But what about religious paintings? If I were to install a religious painting in a church structure, or in my home, for religious, theological purposes, as statues and images are installed in Catholic Churches, and bow down to it, yes, that would be worship or spiritual veneration. And that is precisely what has occurred with Catholic statutes and images. Or, if I were to get down upon my knees in front of a religious painting and pray to it, as Catholics pray to their statues and images, that would be worship/veneration.

One of my Catholic friends said, “There is no difference between what Catholics do and what Protestants do when they (Protestants) get down upon their knees to pray.” There’s a world of difference. Protestants bow and get down upon their knees to pray to a live and active God. Catholics bow, cross themselves, and pray to a lifeless, spiritless, and hollow piece of earthen material. Surely we can see the difference.​

Quote einstein.
“Common sense is the net sum of all prejudice” ( learned by Protestants - insert mine)

Away from anti catholic hate practiced by buff and others, nobody could read till recent times - so the scenes of Jesus life were captured in stained glass, pictures& statues eg stations Of cross.

Guess why - So people can meditate on the journey to the cross. They worship Jesus not the picture. Obviously,

You particularly- so called Bible Christian’s - with the demonstrably false man made traditon of sola scriptura, cannot relate to earlier times. They had no Bible and even if they did they couldn’t read it. Faith was handed by word of mouth and in this case images, it Should be simple alas not for protestants with determination to misrepresent,

What God opposed was worship of Statues of calves or such as Pan. Those graven images. Obviously
You do love your misleading proof texts.

Ive asked you several times. Answer it this time,

Do you have a valid Eucharist of the real flesh valid only if presided by bishop in succession?
if you don’t you are the apostate, because we know what Johns disciples did.
So we know what Jesus meant and scripture means - because of tradition , the true faith handed down.

protestants didn’t rediscover the faith, they twisted it out of all recognition!
In Zwingli’s case profaning the eucharist to the point it bled in a miracle!

 

[Illuminator]

Donadams:

Here is what God says on the subject of erecting images and idols, the same passage I asserted earlier:

“Therefore, watch yourselves very carefully, so that you do not become corrupt and make for yourselves an idol, an image of any shape, whether formed like a man or a woman” (Deut. 4:15-16).

If your understanding of the Old Testament passages you inserted and quoted is correct, then you have God contradicting Himself. Is God a contradictory God? Your perception, as I see it, very definitely makes it so.

God is speaking of the images and statues and idols that are fashioned for religious, spiritual purposes! When statues or idols of Jesus, Mary, Joseph, the apostles or anyone else are made for religious, spiritual reasons, spiritual corruption and idolatry are the results. So says the God of creation. Within the confines of Catholicism, and occasionally Protestantism, are found all of the above—plus more. If this is not idolatry, I’ve lost my senses. “You shall not bow down to them or worship them” (Gen.20:5).

Common sense informs us that God is not talking about images and statues and sculptures of a political, historical, and social kind.

I would ask my Catholic friends again: What part of this don’t you understand? Even the Catholic Bible has God condemning images, statues, and idols that are made for religious, spiritual purposes. Yet Catholics violate the same scriptures they claim to support. Again, this is "Catholicism Against Itself."

But what about religious paintings? If I were to install a religious painting in a church structure, or in my home, for religious, theological purposes, as statues and images are installed in Catholic Churches, and bow down to it, yes, that would be worship or spiritual veneration. And that is precisely what has occurred with Catholic statutes and images. Or, if I were to get down upon my knees in front of a religious painting and pray to it, as Catholics pray to their statues and images, that would be worship/veneration.

One of my Catholic friends said, “There is no difference between what Catholics do and what Protestants do when they (Protestants) get down upon their knees to pray.” There’s a world of difference. Protestants bow and get down upon their knees to pray to a live and active God. Catholics bow, cross themselves, and pray to a lifeless, spiritless, and hollow piece of earthen material. Surely we can see the difference.​

Catholics don't pray to statues. That's a stupid canard that has been refuted a million times.

Do Catholics Worship Statues?

Do Catholics violate God's prohibition of idolatry by worshiping statues? We put this bogus claim to rest once and for all.

www.catholic.com

None are so blind as those who refuse to see.

 

[donadams]

Donadams:

Here is what God says on the subject of erecting images and idols, the same passage I asserted earlier:

“Therefore, watch yourselves very carefully, so that you do not become corrupt and make for yourselves an idol, an image of any shape, whether formed like a man or a woman” (Deut. 4:15-16).

If your understanding of the Old Testament passages you inserted and quoted is correct, then you have God contradicting Himself. Is God a contradictory God? Your perception, as I see it, very definitely makes it so.

God is speaking of the images and statues and idols that are fashioned for religious, spiritual purposes! When statues or idols of Jesus, Mary, Joseph, the apostles or anyone else are made for religious, spiritual reasons, spiritual corruption and idolatry are the results. So says the God of creation. Within the confines of Catholicism, and occasionally Protestantism, are found all of the above—plus more. If this is not idolatry, I’ve lost my senses. “You shall not bow down to them or worship them” (Gen.20:5).

Common sense informs us that God is not talking about images and statues and sculptures of a political, historical, and social kind.

I would ask my Catholic friends again: What part of this don’t you understand? Even the Catholic Bible has God condemning images, statues, and idols that are made for religious, spiritual purposes. Yet Catholics violate the same scriptures they claim to support. Again, this is "Catholicism Against Itself."

But what about religious paintings? If I were to install a religious painting in a church structure, or in my home, for religious, theological purposes, as statues and images are installed in Catholic Churches, and bow down to it, yes, that would be worship or spiritual veneration. And that is precisely what has occurred with Catholic statutes and images. Or, if I were to get down upon my knees in front of a religious painting and pray to it, as Catholics pray to their statues and images, that would be worship/veneration.

One of my Catholic friends said, “There is no difference between what Catholics do and what Protestants do when they (Protestants) get down upon their knees to pray.” There’s a world of difference. Protestants bow and get down upon their knees to pray to a live and active God. Catholics bow, cross themselves, and pray to a lifeless, spiritless, and hollow piece of earthen material. Surely we can see the difference.​

Actually no, our prayers are always directed to God the only source of grace and mercy, thru the intercession of the saints and especially the queen mother, in the line of David the king the kings mother is queen and presents the petition of the people to the king just as queen Esther did, and Mary did in Jn 2


Honor, praise, veneration, love, prayer, and devotion are not worship, not adoration!

God alone may be lawfully worshipped!

Worship requires intent, and adoration, reparation, and the offering of sacrifice!

God alone may be lawfully worshipped!

Praise of Mary and the saints redounds to the glory of God and Christ, cos Mary and the saints are what God made them, it is His handiwork (Lk 1:49 Lk 1:28) and the graces they have come from the merits of Christ’s passion and death.

2 Thessalonians 1:10
When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Mary all powerful advocate!
Help of Christian’s!

Mary ever virgin, mother of God, is all powerful in her prayers!

Mary’s prayers are all powerful not cos she is God but because her son is God!

and on becoming man He (Jesus) obeyed his own commandments

you might check out the one that says “honor Thy father and mother”

“My hour has not come”

The time set by almighty God for the public ministry of Christ had not come, Jesus Christ still performed the miracle cos his mother interceded, thus a higher law, “honor thy father and mother” if ANYONE else asked it would NOT have been done!
John 2

and cos of her intercession the disciples believed in Him!
Jn 2:11

There is another point that Jesus is making when he says: what does it have to do with you and me? My hour hath not yet come. Indicating that when it does come Mary will have a prominent role to play. See Lk 2:35

Saints are not dead!

God of the living!

Matthew 22:32
I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

Jn 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

Only one mediator?

1 Tim 2:1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;

Images are not forbidden

Idols and idolatry are forbidden

the icon-o-clast heresy was condemned by the holy apostles in the authority of Christ in the seventh century at the second council of Nicea!


What’s wrong with the sign of the cross?
What about a crucifix can Christ be portrayed as crucified?
Thanks

 

[donadams]

Do you have a list (1. 2. 3. Etc.) of the ten commandments from scripture?

 

[Buff Scott Jr.]

Donadams:

I was reviewing a few of our exchanges, and I noticed the following from you, "Saints are not dead! God of the living!
​

"Matthew 22:32 - 'I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.' "

I say AMEN to these comments!