What is the Mark of the Beast on the Forehead vs the Hand?

[Josheb]

I would offer.

I think simply a lying sign to wonder after rather than believing all things written in the law and prophets................

Imadisagree

Everything written in Revelation was written to believers and what was written about the "mark" was written to believers by a believer for the purpose of the believers' recognition. While the mark could well be a false messiah kind of mark (one standing in juxtaposition or even opposition of the phylacteries) it remains a sign to believers. It would be a curious think to predicate their recognition of an outright lie. I am more inclined to see it as a perversion of (already established) truth.

 

[Josheb]

In the 1st C. A.D., worshippers of gods and servants were often marked on the hand or forehead;

Yep.

however, I do think that it's worth paying attention to the principles involved, because they tend to be repeated in cycles, throughout history. In modern times, it's certainly possible that a chip in the hand or implant in the forehead, could be needed to buy or sell and could be a necessity to participate in the devil's kingdom.

I reject that premise because the book opens and closes with specific temporal marker "near" and the opening explicitly states some of the events have passed, and some exist at the time of the writing. While I do not reject the Idealist view of patterns cycling in human history, that does not preclude the specific first-century relevance. Whatever the mark was it must be something that could and would have been understood by the original author and his original readers. That can't be computer chips.

Some people are already getting chips in the hand (for company ID, entry to secure doors, etc.); and there are experiments ongoing with brain implants. It would also tie-in with the WEF's transhumanism agenda.

That has nothing to do with Revelation 13's mark. We'd have to ignore all the temporal markers, all the audience affiliations, the plain meaning of words and/or how scripture itself uses those words, and many of the most basic precepts in exegesis to consider computer chips as a possibility.

Revelation being (mostly) past does not preclude its circumstances from reoccurring. The possibility of reoccurrence does not preclude a preterist eschatology. The partial-preterist view can be followed by the idealist view, but the reverse cannot be true. Curiously, I'm in the middle of re-reading Vern Poythress' guidebook on Revelation, "The Returning King," and I find his critique of preterist views inaccurate. I think he erred assuming one or the other is a necessity, when he could have a partial-pret reading and also keep his Idealist eschatology.

 

[CrowCross]

Some people are already getting chips in the hand (for company ID, entry to secure doors, etc.); and there are experiments ongoing with brain implants. It would also tie-in with the WEF's transhumanism agenda.

The world is slowly becoming acustomed. The technology is arriving.

 

[CrowCross]

When are where did this happen in the preterist interpretation of scripture?

Rev 16:2 So the first angel went and poured out his bowl on the earth, and harmful and painful sores came upon the people who bore the mark of the beast and worshiped its image.

 

[Mr GLee]

Imadisagree

Everything written in Revelation was written to believers and what was written about the "mark" was written to believers by a believer for the purpose of the believers' recognition. While the mark could well be a false messiah kind of mark (one standing in juxtaposition or even opposition of the phylacteries) it remains a sign to believers. It would be a curious think to predicate their recognition of an outright lie. I am more inclined to see it as a perversion of (already established) truth.

Thanks for the reply

His mark not sign . He warns of natural unconverted mankind (the number of man 666) needing a sign before they will believe .

The sign is do not believe in signs to wonder after as if it prophecy. . trust prophecy.

Lying wonders, the voice of Satan . His only voice

No sign was given to wonder after .

The word mark used nine times in Revelation .The word sign once .

It the (mark )is shown being used properly in Genesis, the foundation of the word mark. The doctrine not founded in the last chapter Revelation.

Genesis 4:15 And the Lord said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the Lord set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.

Heaven and earth will pass away but the mark of his word ("Let there be" and it was good) will never pass

In effect the Holy Spirit informed Cain under the influence of the father of lies .Mark my word, what I say comes to pass

David in efect said in the Psalms. If mankind does remove the foundation of a doctrine . What can they do ?

Psalm 11:3 If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do?

 

[Mr GLee]

In the 1st C. A.D., worshippers of gods and servants were often marked on the hand or forehead; however, I do think that it's worth paying attention to the principles involved, because they tend to be repeated in cycles, throughout history. In modern times, it's certainly possible that a chip in the hand or implant in the forehead, could be needed to buy or sell and could be a necessity to participate in the devil's kingdom.

Some people are already getting chips in the hand (for company ID, entry to secure doors, etc.); and there are experiments ongoing with brain implants. It would also tie-in with the WEF's transhumanism agenda.

Forehead in the bible speaks of the mind or will, hand or finger of God . . the work of the will . Both to will and to do His good pleasure Philippians 2:13

Exodus 28:38 And it shall be upon Aaron's forehead, that Aaron may bear the iniquity of the holy things, which the children of Israel shall hallow in all their holy gifts; and it shall be always upon his forehead, that they may be accepted before the Lord

Ezekiel 9:And the Lord said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.

Exodus below, using a ceremonial law a shadow of the unseen hand and will of God.

Exodus28 : 35 And it shall be upon Aaron to minister: and his sound shall be heard when he goeth in unto the holy place before the Lord, and when he cometh out, that he die not.And thou shalt make a plate of pure gold, and grave upon it, like the engravings of a signet, Holiness To The Lord.And thou shalt put it on a blue lace, that it may be upon the mitre; upon the forefront of the mitre it shall be. And it shall be upon Aaron's forehead, that Aaron may bear the iniquity of the holy things, which the children of Israel shall hallow in all their holy gifts; and it shall be always upon his forehead, that they may be accepted before the Lord.

 

[CrowCross]

His mark not sign . He warns of natural unconverted mankind (the number of man 666) needing a sign before they will believe .

The sign is do not believe in signs to wonder after as if it prophecy. . trust prophecy.

Why do you not trust the prophecy that says people will have to receive the mark to buy and sell?

 

[David1701]

Yep.

I reject that premise because the book opens and closes with specific temporal marker "near" and the opening explicitly states some of the events have passed, and some exist at the time of the writing. While I do not reject the Idealist view of patterns cycling in human history, that does not preclude the specific first-century relevance. Whatever the mark was it must be something that could and would have been understood by the original author and his original readers. That can't be computer chips.

That has nothing to do with Revelation 13's mark. We'd have to ignore all the temporal markers, all the audience affiliations, the plain meaning of words and/or how scripture itself uses those words, and many of the most basic precepts in exegesis to consider computer chips as a possibility.

Revelation being (mostly) past does not preclude its circumstances from reoccurring. The possibility of reoccurrence does not preclude a preterist eschatology. The partial-preterist view can be followed by the idealist view, but the reverse cannot be true. Curiously, I'm in the middle of re-reading Vern Poythress' guidebook on Revelation, "The Returning King," and I find his critique of preterist views inaccurate. I think he erred assuming one or the other is a necessity, when he could have a partial-pret reading and also keep his Idealist eschatology.

Yes, partial-preterism and cycling patterns are compatible.

 

[David1701]

Forehead in the bible speaks of the mind or will, hand or finger of God . . the work of the will . Both to will and to do His good pleasure Philippians 2:13

Exodus 28:38 And it shall be upon Aaron's forehead, that Aaron may bear the iniquity of the holy things, which the children of Israel shall hallow in all their holy gifts; and it shall be always upon his forehead, that they may be accepted before the Lord

Ezekiel 9:And the Lord said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.

Exodus below, using a ceremonial law a shadow of the unseen hand and will of God.

Exodus28 : 35 And it shall be upon Aaron to minister: and his sound shall be heard when he goeth in unto the holy place before the Lord, and when he cometh out, that he die not.And thou shalt make a plate of pure gold, and grave upon it, like the engravings of a signet, Holiness To The Lord.And thou shalt put it on a blue lace, that it may be upon the mitre; upon the forefront of the mitre it shall be. And it shall be upon Aaron's forehead, that Aaron may bear the iniquity of the holy things, which the children of Israel shall hallow in all their holy gifts; and it shall be always upon his forehead, that they may be accepted before the Lord.

Yes, I know. There is a physical aspect and a symbolic aspect.

 

[Josheb]

His mark not sign .

what does that mean?

He warns...

Warned, not warns.

 

[Mr GLee]

Warned, not warns.

A sign and a mark two different things.

warned, warns, still warning

 

[Mr GLee]

Yes, I know. There is a physical aspect and a symbolic aspect.

And there is a spiritual not seen principle called a mark.

Big difference between a sign and a mark , No signs were given Jesus said it a evil generation that seeks after one.

We have prophecy till the end of time. There is no sign to look to look for on the horizon other than the end .


Satan is still producing liying signs to wonder after like the mark 666 the number of non converted mankind .

 

[Hodgie]

There is a different view on the mark that is rather convincing:-

The real meaning of 666. “In the name of Allah. Islam”
The apostle John wrote the book of Revelation because God gave him visions of the future. At one point he was shown some type of mark that people had on their right arm or forehead and this mark identified the people who belonged to the beast or antichrist.
Revelation 13:16-18 says.
“It also forced all people, great and small, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hands or their foreheads, so that they could not buy or sell unless they had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of its name. This calls for wisdom. Let the person who has insight calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man. That number is six hundred, three score and six.”

Now the book of “Revelation” is called “Revelation” because the hidden things within it will be revealed at the appointed time that God wants them revealed. People have studied the number “666” for many years and tried to decipher it but nobody has come up with a real answer to it until a few years ago.

A man by the name of Walid Shoebat, who was a Muslim, wanted to prove the bible wrong and so he studied it. He even studied reading one of the oldest copies of the New Testament that we have. This copy of the New Testament was written in Greek, so people have always interpreted it from Greek to English. As he was reading through the book of Revelation in this old text, he came to the part that speaks of the beast and the number “six hundred, three score and six”. As soon as he saw this, he did not read the “666” in Greek but he saw something else in Arabic, as he is of this origin. It said, “In the name of Allah. Islam”
God had hidden the actual meaning of the numbers until now because scholars were reading it in Greek and not Arabic.

The "X,E,5" in this following picture are the texts that Walid Shoebat saw.

The first symbol, which is the “X” shaped symbol, is very similar to the Arabic symbol of Islam, which is, “The crossed swords”. The crossed swords or the “X” mean “Islam”. You will even see the crossed swords on some of the Muslim nation’s flags.

The last letter that looks like a “5”, if read in Arabic is “Bismillah,” or “in the name of”. You may have heard this chant said by terrorists before they do their evil act.

Now, if the middle letter that looks like an “E” is rotated anticlockwise a little, it reads in Arabic the word “Allah”.
The middle letter can be read and understood even if it is not turned but most of the time the word “Allah” is written in the “W” shape and not the “E” shape.

Arabic writing is read from right to left. So, when read in Arabic from right to left, the symbols, “666” actually say “In the name of Allah. Islam”

On TV we often see Muslims wearing this number on their foreheads to proclaim their faith in Allah. Some Isis fighters also had it on their arm.

In Revelation 13:16-17 it says, "He causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads, and that no one may buy or sell except one who has the mark or the name of the beast, or the number of his name."
This already happens in Islam. When Isis took over an area, if a person who owned a business wanted to keep trading, they had to pay a tax called "Jizya." When the time comes though, all that is needed for the prophecy to be fulfilled is for the anti-Christ to make a mandatory order for everyone who believes in Islam to wear the head banner to prove that they are true Muslims. Anyone who refuses to take the number/headscarf will be considered not to be a true believer in Allah and will not be able to trade.

Here is a great YouTube clip: Only 6 minutes:
The person speaking is Walid Schoebat. He was the Muslim terrorist (now Christian) who first read the “666” in Arabic. It is well worth watching.

 

[Hodgie]

Here are some startling similarities between biblical prophecies of the last days and the Islamic prophecies of the same last days. These prophies seem like a mirror image of each other. Satan has made a counterfeit mirror image of the last days within Islam.

· Bible: The Antichrist is an unparalleled political, military and religious leader who will emerge in the last-days.
· Islam: The Mahdi is an unparalleled political, military and religious leader that will emerge in the last-days.

· Bible: The False Prophet is a secondary prominent figure that will emerge in the last-days who will support the Antichrist.
· Islam: The Muslim Jesus is a secondary prominent figure that will emerge in the last-days to support the Mahdi.

· Bible: The Antichrist and the False Prophet together will have a powerful army that will do great damage to the earth in an effort to subdue every nation and dominate the World.
· Islam: The Mahdi and the Muslim Jesus will have a powerful army that will attempt to control every nation of the earth and dominate the World under sharia law.

· Bible: The False Prophet is described essentially as a dragon in lamb’s clothing. (Lamb being representative of Jesus)
· Islam: The Muslim Jesus literally comes bearing the name of the one that the world knows as “The Lamb of God: Jesus Christ.” Yet the Muslim Jesus comes to murder all those who do not submit to Islam.

· Bible: The Antichrist and the False Prophet establish a New World Order (One World Government).
· Islam: The Mahdi and the Muslim Jesus establish a New World Order under Islamic Law and ruled by the caliphate (Islamic Government).

· Bible: The Antichrist and the False Prophet institute new laws for the whole earth.
· Islam: The Mahdi and the Muslim Jesus institute Islamic law all over the earth (Sharia Law).

· Bible: The Antichrist is said to “change the times.”
· Islam: It is quite certain that if the Mahdi established Islam all over the earth, he would discontinue the use of Saturday and Sunday as the weekend or days of rest but rather Friday, the holy day of Islam. Also, he would most certainly eliminate the Gregorian calendar (A.D.), and replace it with the Islamic calendar (A. H.) as is used in every Islamic country.

· Bible: The Antichrist and the False Prophet will both be powerful religious leaders who will attempt to institute a universal world religion.
· Islam: The Mahdi and the Muslim Jesus will institute Islam as the only religion in earth.

· Bible: The Antichrist and the False Prophet will execute anyone who does not submit to their world religion.
· Islam: Likewise, the Mahdi and the Muslim Jesus will execute anyone who does not submit to Islam.

· Bible: The Antichrist and the False Prophet will specifically use beheading as the primary means of execution for non-conformists.
· Islam: The Mahdi and the Muslim Jesus will use the Islamic practice of beheading for executions.

· Bible: The Antichrist and the False Prophet will have a specific agenda to kill as many Jews as possible.
· Islam: The Mahdi and the Muslim Jesus will kill as many Jews as possible until only a few are left hiding behind rocks and trees.

· Bible: The Antichrist and the False Prophet will attack to conquer and seize Jerusalem.
· Islam: The Mahdi and the Muslim Jesus will attack to re-conquer and seize Jerusalem for Islam.

· Bible: The Antichrist will set himself up in the Jewish temple as his seat of authority.
· Islam: The Mahdi will establish the Islamic Caliphate (Government) from Jerusalem.

· Bible: The False Prophet is said to do many miracles to deceive as many as possible into supporting the Antichrist.
· Islam: The Mahdi himself is said to control the weather and the crops. His face is said to glow. We can also assume that since Jesus is viewed as having been empowered by Allah to work miracles when he was here on earth the first time, he will most likely be expected to continue to do so when he returns.

· Bible: The Antichrist is described as riding on a white horse in the Book of Revelation
· Islam: The Mahdi is described as riding on a white horse (ironically from the same verse).

· Bible: The Antichrist is said to make a peace treaty with Israel for seven years.
· Islam: The Mahdi is said to make a peace treaty through a Jew (specifically a Levite) for exactly seven years.

· Bible: Jesus the Jewish Messiah will return to defend the Jews in Israel from a military attack from a vast coalition of nations led by the Antichrist and the False Prophet.
· Islam: The Dajjal, the Islamic Antichrist will gain a great Jewish following and claim to be Jesus Christ and fight against the Mahdi and the Muslim Jesus.

· Bible: The antichrist spirit specifically denies the most unique and central doctrines of Christianity, namely the trinity, the incarnation and the substitutionary death of Jesus on the cross.
· Islam: Islam doctrinally and spiritually specifically denies the most unique and central doctrines of Christianity, namely the trinity, the incarnation and the substitutionary death of Jesus on the cross.

· Bible: The primary warning of Jesus and the Apostle Paul was to warn Christians of the abundance of deceit and deception in the last-days.
· Islam: Islam is perhaps the only religion in the earth that practices deceit as one of its tools to assist its own ascendancy. It actually has a specific doctrine which allows and even calls for deception to be used to achieve its desired end.

· Bible: The specific nations pictured in the Bible as being part of the final empire of the Antichrist are all Islamic nations.
· Islam: All Muslims are commanded to give their allegiance to The Mahdi as the final Caliph and Imam (leader) of Islam.

· Bible: When Antichrist emerges, there will already be some form of system in place that will be poised to receive him as a Savior and to give allegiance to him.
· Islam: Already the second largest religion and will at present growth rates become the largest religion within a few decades. Islam is awaiting the coming of the Mahdi with a universal anticipation.

· Bible: Euphrates River will dry up which will allow the kings of the east (Muslim Countries) cross over where the river was and they will fight in Magedon
· Islam: Euphrates River will dry up. This will uncover something of great value. In the Hadiths it says Gold. There will be big battles over this treasure.

 

[CrowCross]

A sign and a mark two different things.

I agree.

Signs and wonders....and identification

 

[Josheb]

We see something like that happening in the current news today...

Christians measure news by scripture, not the other way around. The evening newscast does not define scripture.

Remember, Jesus returns twice....in the clouds at the beginning of the trib and on a "white horse" at the end of the trib.

Which has nothing to do with the rapture. The abject failure of futurists to stay on topic makes intelligent conversation with futurists impossible. It's a huge problem.

I POSTED SCRIPTURE!​

And the response is an appeal to the evening news . One would be hard pressed to imagine a greater foolishness. The mash-up of scriptures implied with "in the clouds" being "at the end of the trip" in response to pre-tribulation rapture is nonsensical.

We're supposed to be talking about the mark of the beast. The only reason the digression about the rapture exists is because someone claimed,
"The pre-tribulation rapture will have already occurred."

Why then would any Christian need have any concern about any mark? If there aren't going to be any Christians around, then why tell Christians about the mark? If there aren't going to be any Christians around, then why be concerns at all? It most certainly does not speak to the facts of scripture......

Matthew 24:9, 20-21
Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name.............. But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath. For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.

No spin necessary. Jesus said what he meant and what he said was "You will be handed over to tribulation ," AND the great tribulation was cut short for the sake of the elect lest no lives be saved (Mt. 24:22). Immediately after the great tribulation a bunch of stuff happens that would be meaningless unless there were Christians ON EARTH to see it.

Most importantly, NOT ONCE DID JESUS APPEAL TO THE EVENING NEWSCAST .

Revelation 7:13-14
Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?" I said to him, "My lord, you know." And he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Christians go through and come out of the great tribulation.

Bye.....Enjoy the trib.

Lame.

We see something like that happening in the current news today.........

I saw no mention of a mark on the head or hand necessary to buy food on the current news today and I happen to be a person who listens to about a dozen different news sources from all ends of the religious/secular and political spectrum. The idea we're supposed to measure scripture by a (secular) newscast is absurd. So absurd it should instantly tell a believe any teacher who appeals to such things ought to be avoided.


The only thing I can thing worse than subjugating scripture to the news is speculating about astronomical events. A friend of mine sent me a link to a sermon series that began last Saturday in which the teacher began by saying there will be a solar eclipse within forty days (April 8, 2024) and this solar eclipse should be considered "a sign of the times" and failure to read the sings of the times occurs at one's own (spiritual and eschatological) risk.


Matthew 16:2-4
But He replied to them, "When it is evening, you say, 'It will be fair weather, for the sky is red.' And in the morning, 'There will be a storm today, for the sky is red and threatening.' Do you know how to discern the appearance of the sky, but cannot discern the signs of the times? An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign; and a sign will not be given it, except the sign of Jonah." And He left them and went away.

So according to Matthew 16:3, according to this teacher, we're supposed to know what this solar eclipse of April 8th means and the eschatological eventualities it necessitates. That teacher went on to make predictions pertaining to what would happen in the near future after the solar eclipse of April 8, 2024. We MUST read the signs of the times. He then made two contradictory claims. He claimed this teaching he was given came to him by way of the Holy Spirit and then, later in his prognostications also stated this was merely his opinion and his audience could take it or leave it as they wished. We're supposed to take or leave a message inspired by the Holy Spirit? A message that came to him by the Holy Spirit is just his opinion?

And when I asked, "What will you do when none of the predictions he made come true after the solar eclipse?" guess what happened? What happened when I asked in any in the congregation, would any of the congregation's elders follow up with the teacher and ask him why those things did not happen, and how it was he was so sure things that never happened would happen? Would there be any accountability with the teacher and those who are supposed to provide accountability?

Bye.....Enjoy the trib.

Ugh!


This is what passes for exegesis and reason in much of the Church today. The newscast, instead of other scripture, is the measure of God's word. Revelation 13 is not the first times scripture spoke of marks on the hand and forehead. Given the precedents of scripture why on earth (or the heavens) would anyone ignore scripture and look instead to the news?

Answer: Because that is what modern futurism teaches its adherents to do! Ignore scriptures precedents! Look to the news!

 

[Josheb]

Here are some startling similarities between biblical prophecies of the last days and the Islamic prophecies of the same last days. These prophies seem like a mirror image of each other. Satan has made a counterfeit mirror image of the last days within Islam.

· Bible: The Antichrist is an unparalleled political, military and religious leader who will emerge in the last-days.

Got scripture for that?

· Bible: The Antichrist and the False Prophet together will have a powerful army that will do great damage to the earth in an effort to subdue every nation and dominate the World.

Got scripture for that?

· Bible: The False Prophet is described essentially as a dragon in lamb’s clothing. (Lamb being representative of Jesus)

Got scripture for that?

· Bible: The Antichrist and the False Prophet establish a New World Order (One World Government).

Got scripture for that?

· Bible: The Antichrist and the False Prophet institute new laws for the whole earth.

Got scripture for that?

· Bible: The Antichrist is said to “change the times.”

"Is said..." Who says that, exactly? Is it scripture? If so, then please post the scripture stating, "the antichrist changes the times."

· Bible: The Antichrist.........
· Bible: The Antichrist.........
· Bible: The Antichrist........
· Bible: The Antichrist.........
· Bible: The Antichrist.........
· Bible: The Antichrist........
· Bible: The Antichrist.........
· Bible: The Antichrist.........
· Bible: The Antichrist........

You are aware the book of Revelation NEVER uses the word "antichrist," yes?

You're also aware the book of Revelation forbids adding to what is stated therein, yes?

You're also aware Islam is a perverted religion that grew out of the descendants of Isamael, a people through whom God did NOT establish His covenant (Gen. 17:19-21), yes?

Where'd you get that list (what's the extra-biblical source?)?
Why expect anyone here to find it valid?

 

[Josheb]

A sign and a mark two different things.

Then why did you bring them into the discussion as if they were synonymous or related?

warned, warns, still warning

No.


There are no marks on folks' hands and foreheads prohibiting them from buying food today. None. Lots of speculation such a thing will happen in the future but it's all speculation. The book of Revelation was written to Christians living in the first century about events that would happen quickly because the time was then near, or at hand. Much of that book had already occurred and some of it was happening at the time it was written. Of the minority portion that was in the original audience's future, none of it was said to occur millennia later and the portion that can (and/or should) be read that way has nothing to do with Revelation 13:17 or 14:9. We all see that those defending a far futurist interpretation ignore the Old Testament, copy and splice together scripture eisegetically to make it say things it does not actually state, and they appeal to the latest news casts (it we checked thread in forums a year ago, and a year from now they'll be appealing to different news casts).

It is because scripture's prophecies were fulfilled that we can have faith backed by truth. That's a completely different faith then one couched in never-fulfilled prophecy and speculation.

 

[CrowCross]

Christians measure news by scripture, not the other way around. The evening newscast does not define scripture.

Currently scripture is defining the news.

 

[CrowCross]

Christians go through and come out of the great tribulation.

True....but only those who were left behind and now believe...