Looking At T.U.L.I.P. By Calvin

[justbyfaith]

T - Total Depravity: I believe that mankind is entirely sinful apart from Christ; but that this does not prevent him from making a decision for Christ when he is pressed upon by the Holy Spirit to do so.

U - Unconditional Election: I believe that predestination is according to foreknowledge (Romans 8:29, 1 Peter 1:2).

L - Limited Atonement: I believe that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2); and that the atonement is appropriated in anyone's life by faith. Jesus said that whoever comes to Him He will in no wise cast out (John 6:37); so the argument that if I come to Christ, I may be rejected because I am not one of the elect is made null and void.

I- Irresistible Grace: Obviously, the Holy Spirit can be resisted (Acts 7:51).

P - Perseverance of the Saints: If someone has a genuine faith then they will persevere, being sealed by the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 1:13-14, Ephesians 4:30). If their faith is nominal, shallow, or lukewarm, then they can fall away (Luke 8:13). It is only the fourth type of ground in the parable of the sower that can lay hold of such promises as John 5:24 and John 10:27-30, in proper faith. Also, it is not OSAS, it is POTS. If someone goes forward at a church service or crusade and then lives like hell, it cannot be said that they were saved and cannot lose their salvation. Perseverance has to do with being a saint. 1 John 2:17 tells us that he who does the will of God abides for ever. That is eternal security for the one who abides. The clincher: those who abide in Him don't commit sin (1 John 3:6).

 

[David1701]

Lol! Ain't Mchappenin!

I think you need to come down to the station!

Hey you may like this, lol:

LOL!

 

[Sereni-tea]

T - Total Depravity: I believe that mankind is entirely sinful apart from Christ; but that this does not prevent him from making a decision for Christ when he is pressed upon by the Holy Spirit to do so.

L - Limited Atonement: I believe that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2); and that the atonement is appropriated in anyone's life by faith. Jesus said that whoever comes to Him He will in no wise cast out (John 6:37); so the argument that if I come to Christ, I may be rejected because I am not one of the elect is made null and void.

Of course Jesus will not cast out anyone who comes to him. But why and how would a person come to Jesus if they were not one of the elect? As you said, they are sinful apart from Christ. It is the Holy Spirit that draws a person to turn to Christ and be saved.

 

[makesends]

I- Irresistible Grace: Obviously, the Holy Spirit can be resisted (Acts 7:51).

Nobody is saying the Holy Spirit cannot be resisted. Irresistible Grace is a reference to the fact that the recipient of the gift of God is not even consulted, when the Holy Spirit changes their evil nature, from death to life.

 

[GoKart Mozart]

T.U.L.I.P. a more verbose way of expressing:

If picked, you're in and there's nothing you can do about it

If not picked, you're excluded and there's nothing you can do about.

It's like a big cosmic clique.

 

[Carbon]

T.U.L.I.P. a more verbose way of expressing:

If picked, you're in and there's nothing you can do about it

If you are in, there is nothing you want to do about it as far as getting out.

If not picked, you're excluded and there's nothing you can do about.

It's like a big cosmic clique.

Hopefully, you may see things differently in time.

 

[Carbon]

Amen! Thankfully, God graciously chose to save some.

Many seem to get all bent over all men getting "fair treatment" (and some are getting fair (just) treatment, if you think about it). But they mean by this that they all deserve, and/or are owed, and/or better get a chance, or it isn't fair.

Few whine and complain about the unfair treatment Christ suffered.

And the amazing part is that He chooses anyone, or even gave us a thought.

 

[GoKart Mozart]

Hopefully, you may see things differently in time.

Why would I see things differently?

This thread has spent 8 pages arguing exactly what I expressed in a simplistic (dare I say vulgar) way.

 

[Carbon]

Why would I see things differently?

This thread has spent 8 pages arguing exactly what I expressed in a simplistic (dare I say vulgar) way.

Well, at least you are a nice guy about it.

 

[Josheb]

If anyone has a better site that accurately depicts T.U.L.I.P. better than this one, feel free to share. I do not think there are different variations of Calvin's T.U.L.I.P. but I may be wrong. As it is, there are different variations of Bible versions and anti-KJVOers say not all Bibles are saying the same thing and since there is no regard in keeping the meat of the scripture, I do see why it is possible that Calvin's T.U.L.I.P. may be misrepresented as well.

Five Point TULIP Calvinism Explained

From the link:

T - Stands for Total Depravity​

The belief in total depravity takes the view that sinfulness pervades all areas of life and human existence. Through the Fall of Man, humanity is stained by sin in every aspect: heart, emotions, will, mind, and body. This means people cannot independently choose God. They cannot save themselves. God must intervene to save people.

Calvinism insists that God must do all the work, from choosing those who will be saved to sanctifying them throughout their lives until they die and go to heaven. Calvinists cite numerous Scripture verses supporting humanity's fallen and sinful nature, such as Mark 7:21-23, Romans 6:20, and 1 Corinthians 2:14."

End of quote from link

I agree with this part but clarity in application is that although God must do all the work, in the life of the believer, they can hinder His work by sowing to the flesh in reaping corruption. just as heresy is a work of the flesh. which can also include by resorting to their own power in living the Christian life like keeping a commitment or a promise to follow Christ as if they can finish by the flesh and by their will, what was begun with the Spirit.

God will finish His work in those that build wood, stubble, and hay on that foundation that defiles the temple of God for why they will die per verses 16-17 in that day per verse 13, but their spirits are saved per verse 15 of 1 Corinthians 3:10-17 albeit left behind at the pre great tribulation rapture event for that day when they die. They will be resurrected after the great tribulation as vessels unto dishonor in His House for not departing from iniquity per 2 Timothy 2:19-21 before the Bridegroom had come, thus being damned as vessels of wood & earth to serve the King of kings on earth.

It is not a works salvation because when those are left behind for not being ready, they are still saved for why they are still in His House as God will finish His work even in them that were not ready when the Bridegroom comes.

That site is good but it misses some of the nuances, such as the fact Total Depravity does not mean utter depravity, nor does it mean humans are incapable of moral good. R. C. Sproul's (RIP) Ligonier is one of my favs, and monergismdotcom is usually a good source for Reformed doctrine but a lot of places neglect important little things, like the fact TD is specifically and solely about soteriology.

 

[ChristB4us]

That site is good but it misses some of the nuances, such as the fact Total Depravity does not mean utter depravity, nor does it mean humans are incapable of moral good. R. C. Sproul's (RIP) Ligonier is one of my favs, and monergismdotcom is usually a good source for Reformed doctrine but a lot of places neglect important little things, like the fact TD is specifically and solely about soteriology.

Thanks for sharing.

I had begun this thread to show where I disagree with for why we, as believers, should individually prove all things by the scripture with the help of our Good Shepherd & Friend to help us to do that. Even what is being taught in the church and not accept anything by face value any more.

 

[makesends]

T.U.L.I.P. a more verbose way of expressing:

If picked, you're in and there's nothing you can do about it

If not picked, you're excluded and there's nothing you can do about.

It's like a big cosmic clique.

If not picked you are already out. And you choose it with every decision, even when you think you choose for God. Always done in rebellion to God.

 

[GoKart Mozart]

If not picked you are already out.

if not picked, you are excluded

And you choose it with every decision, even when you think you choose for God. Always done in rebellion to God.

and there's nothing you can do about it.
You just said it differently.

 

[Alive]

That site is good but it misses some of the nuances, such as the fact Total Depravity does not mean utter depravity, nor does it mean humans are incapable of moral good. R. C. Sproul's (RIP) Ligonier is one of my favs, and monergismdotcom is usually a good source for Reformed doctrine but a lot of places neglect important little things, like the fact TD is specifically and solely about soteriology.

Amen on all counts. A lovely brother. We think of TP as being anemic/incapable Godward. Therefore it takes God choosing and doing.

 

[GoKart Mozart]

Actually, Biblically speaking, it's due to His counsel, will, purpose, and grace. Note Ephesians 1.

In addition, it is so that His purpose in election might stand; Romans 9:11.

I'm more into referring to it in Biblical terms, just not in the Romans 9:19-21 manner as some who seem bitter towards God and His ways would do it.

You begin as if this a rebuttal. It's not. What I understand you to be saying is that you prefer to focus on why the clique exists. Those in, or consider themselves in, will certainly prefer to speak of the merits. It has a purpose, common goals, influence, social status etc.
You are not rebutting the concept expressed "if picked" chosen or the elect.

 

[Josheb]

Amen on all counts. A lovely brother. We think of TP as being anemic/incapable Godward. Therefore it takes God choosing and doing.

What kind of ladder would it take to reach God? How long would it be and on what would we lean it so as not to fall over?

 

[Alive]

What kind of ladder would it take to reach God? How long would it be and on what would we lean it so as not to fall over?

This is a nice analogy that points to the impossible.

 

[GoKart Mozart]

What kind of ladder would it take to reach God? How long would it be and on what would we lean it so as not to fall over?

“God is everywhere present and filling all things”

No ladder required.

 

[GoKart Mozart]

But it is.

It is a rebuttal? That would mean you disagree with the "U" in tulip. You disagree with "unconditional election?"

No, I understand exactly what you were doing.

 

[makesends]

“God is everywhere present and filling all things”

No ladder required.

That, “God is everywhere present and filling all things”, is a quote from where? Can you show a reference? Specifically, can you show a context that demonstrates how the quote relates to the argument?

You are right there is no ladder. You are not right that no way to God is required.