Looking At T.U.L.I.P. By Calvin

[David1701]

That, “God is everywhere present and filling all things”, is a quote from where? Can you show a reference? Specifically, can you show a context that demonstrates how the quote relates to the argument?

You are right there is no ladder. You are not right that no way to God is required.

Well, actually, there is a ladder, and his name is "Jesus".

Gen. 28:12 (KJV) And he dreamed, and behold a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven: and behold the angels of God ascending and descending on it.

John 1:51 (EMTV) And He said to him, "Most assuredly I say to you, from now on you shall see heaven opened, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of Man."

 

[Josheb]

“God is everywhere present and filling all things”

No ladder required.

I take it you're neither Calvinist, Arminian, Catholic, nor Orthodox. All of them are one-pointers. So are you Traditionalist? Pelagian?

 

[Josheb]

That, “God is everywhere present and filling all things”, is a quote from where? Can you show a reference? Specifically, can you show a context that demonstrates how the quote relates to the argument?

You are right there is no ladder. You are not right that no way to God is required.

Hmmm... maybe rethink that because God's omnipresence literally means He is everywhere and everywhere all at once. GoKart made the mistake of assuming God's omnipresence means he's reachable by sinful, fleshly, and finite effort without a ladder.

 

[makesends]

Well, actually, there is a ladder, and his name is "Jesus".

Gen. 28:12 (KJV) And he dreamed, and behold a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven: and behold the angels of God ascending and descending on it.

John 1:51 (EMTV) And He said to him, "Most assuredly I say to you, from now on you shall see heaven opened, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of Man."

Ha! Well, you got me on that one! I do hope you realize it was a vision.

 

[makesends]

Hmmm... maybe rethink that because God's omnipresence literally means He is everywhere and everywhere all at once. GoKart made the mistake of assuming God's omnipresence means he's reachable by sinful, fleshly, and finite effort without a ladder.

I wanted to hear his reference.

I'm not saying the quote is mistaken, though I think it is a little short of how the Bible presents it. It can also be very misleading, as @GoKart Mozart demonstrated. I'm still hoping for some redeeming qualities to the context of it, but apparently none are forthcoming.

 

[David1701]

Ha! Well, you got me on that one! I do hope you realize it was a vision.

Yes, of course; but, it was a type, and Jesus is the fulfilment.

 

[makesends]

Yes, of course; but, it was a type, and Jesus is the fulfilment.

Just to continue the theme, do you have Scripture saying it was a type, and Jesus is the fulfilment?

 

[David1701]

Just to continue the theme, do you have Scripture saying it was a type, and Jesus is the fulfilment?

The Scriptures I've already posted did that; and, no, they don't have to spell it out like a primary school textbook.

 

[David1701]

Since in the OT it glorifies Christ, is about Christ, wouldn't that principle suffice on that passage?

Yes, that principle would be enough, even without the NT verse that I quoted previously.

 

[civic]

Yes, I agree. There is only one way to the Father, one way to heaven. If a ladder is used to illustrate a way into heaven, then by deduction it would have to be referring to Christ, and would be demonstrating that one exclusive way; John 14:6 &c.

does the same apply with a tower built to heaven

 

[David1701]

Yes, I agree. There is only one way to the Father, one way to heaven. If a ladder is used to illustrate a way into heaven, then by deduction it would have to be referring to Christ, and would be demonstrating that one exclusive way; John 14:6 &c.

Yes, exactly.

 

[makesends]

The Scriptures I've already posted did that; and, no, they don't have to spell it out like a primary school textbook.

In other words, that is your use of what you posted....

Btw, I'm not saying you are wrong. I'm saying I'm not convinced. You haven't given me strong enough proof —just feelings.

 

[makesends]

Since in the OT it glorifies Christ, is about Christ, wouldn't that principle suffice on that passage?

That's a more reasonable answer, though it seems to me a stretch to say the ladder in a vision, with angels ascending to the heavens and descending on it, necessarily represents Christ, and is given for that reason.

Also, is it possible 'The LORD' mentioned as above the ladder, is Christ?

 

[GeneZ]

If anyone has a better site that accurately depicts T.U.L.I.P. better than this one, feel free to share. I do not think there are different variations of Calvin's T.U.L.I.P. but I may be wrong. As it is, there are different variations of Bible versions and anti-KJVOers say not all Bibles are saying the same thing and since there is no regard in keeping the meat of the scripture, I do see why it is possible that Calvin's T.U.L.I.P. may be misrepresented as well.

Five Point TULIP Calvinism Explained

From the link:

T - Stands for Total Depravity​

The belief in total depravity takes the view that sinfulness pervades all areas of life and human existence. Through the Fall of Man, humanity is stained by sin in every aspect: heart, emotions, will, mind, and body. This means people cannot independently choose God. They cannot save themselves. God must intervene to save people.

Calvinism insists that God must do all the work, from choosing those who will be saved to sanctifying them throughout their lives until they die and go to heaven. Calvinists cite numerous Scripture verses supporting humanity's fallen and sinful nature, such as Mark 7:21-23, Romans 6:20, and 1 Corinthians 2:14."

End of quote from link

I agree with this part but clarity in application is that although God must do all the work, in the life of the believer, they can hinder His work by sowing to the flesh in reaping corruption. just as heresy is a work of the flesh. which can also include by resorting to their own power in living the Christian life like keeping a commitment or a promise to follow Christ as if they can finish by the flesh and by their will, what was begun with the Spirit.

God will finish His work in those that build wood, stubble, and hay on that foundation that defiles the temple of God for why they will die per verses 16-17 in that day per verse 13, but their spirits are saved per verse 15 of 1 Corinthians 3:10-17 albeit left behind at the pre great tribulation rapture event for that day when they die. They will be resurrected after the great tribulation as vessels unto dishonor in His House for not departing from iniquity per 2 Timothy 2:19-21 before the Bridegroom had come, thus being damned as vessels of wood & earth to serve the King of kings on earth.

It is not a works salvation because when those are left behind for not being ready, they are still saved for why they are still in His House as God will finish His work even in them that were not ready when the Bridegroom comes.

Man since the fall of Adam has been depraved. Meaning...
He can not believe unless God supplies grace to overcome his sinful flesh that will be dominating over the soul.
Without grace man is totally helpless to resist his sin nature in relation to God's Spirit. Without God's enabling power of grace man's soul will always reject God.

Its the flesh's dominance over the soul prevents man's soul from believing.

But, to say man is totally depraved? Leaves God with nothing to save.

When God saves a soul he has (positionally) crucified that man's flesh in Christ.

Again, to say man is totally depraved? Leaves God with nothing to save.
Total depravity would have to mean that the flesh and soul are each hopelessly depraved.

Man will become totally depraved when he insists upon rejecting God during times that grace was being implemented to paralyze the effects of the flesh over the soul. Paralyzing the sin nature is by grace, thus making that soul momentarily truly free to either choose for, or against God, while God was drawing him by grace.

grace and peace ......................

 

[David1701]

In other words, that is your use of what you posted....

Btw, I'm not saying you are wrong. I'm saying I'm not convinced. You haven't given me strong enough proof —just feelings.

In his dream, the angels ascended and descended upon Jacob's ladder. The NT verse says that they ascend and descend upon the Son of Man (Jesus).

Gen. 28:12 (KJV) And he dreamed, and behold a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven: and behold the angels of God ascending and descending on it.

John 1:51 (KJV) And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.

This is not "feelings", it's Scripture.

 

[ChristB4us]

Man since the fall of Adam has been depraved. Meaning...
He can not believe unless God supplies grace to overcome his sinful flesh that will be dominating over the soul.
Without grace man is totally helpless to resist his sin nature in relation to God's Spirit. Without God's enabling power of grace man's soul will always reject God.

Its the flesh's dominance over the soul prevents man's soul from believing.

But, to say man is totally depraved? Leaves God with nothing to save.

When God saves a soul he has (positionally) crucified that man's flesh in Christ.

Again, to say man is totally depraved? Leaves God with nothing to save.
Total depravity would have to mean that the flesh and soul are each hopelessly depraved.

How do you apply this to mean then?

Romans 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. 12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. 13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: 14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: 15 Their feet are swift to shed blood: 16 Destruction and misery are in their ways: 17 And the way of peace have they not known: 18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

Man will become totally depraved when he insists upon rejecting God during times that grace was being implemented to paralyze the effects of the flesh over the soul. Paralyzing the sin nature is by grace, thus making that soul momentarily truly free to either choose for, or against God, while God was drawing him by grace.

grace and peace ......................

I do not see any of us having the ability to choose Him.

John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

The Father gives us to the Son to save us as He foresees who would receive Him from those that prefer their evil deeds.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
Since faith comes from hearing the word of God ;
Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

The Holy Spirit comes from hearing the word of God

Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. 44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

Then our faith in Jesus Christ is a result of grace as the Father has given us the Holy Spirit at the hearing of the word so we can believe in Him.

Thanks for sharing. I can understand your point of view but scripture seems to reprove it & modify it some more as He chose us so we can believe.

 

[GeneZ]

...

How do you apply this to mean then?

Romans 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. 12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. 13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: 14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: 15 Their feet are swift to shed blood: 16 Destruction and misery are in their ways: 17 And the way of peace have they not known: 18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

I do not see any of us having the ability to choose Him.

That is why God must give grace (Holy Spirit controlling the flesh to dominate over the soul).

For without grace? No man could return to God as God intended that man to be.

Now grace controls our flesh and enables our soul to make choices for truth.
Later, we will have beautiful, powerful sinless bodies that will not require grace in the same manner.

Right now? We must seek and find truth to walk in by grace to escape the controls of the cosmic system of Satan over the whole world.
Satan now suckers many Christians with false doctrines that find an appeal to their own fleshly tendencies.

For the time will come when they will not put up with sound doctrine.
Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great
number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 2 Timothy 4:3

Tip toe through the TULIP with me?

 

[ChristB4us]

...

That is why God must give grace (Holy Spirit controlling the flesh to dominate over the soul).

For without grace? No man could return to God as God intended that man to be.

Now grace controls our flesh and enables our soul to make choices for truth.
Later, we will have beautiful, powerful sinless bodies that will not require grace in the same manner.

Right now? We must seek and find truth to walk in by grace to escape the controls of the cosmic system of Satan over the whole world.
Satan now suckers many Christians with false doctrines that find an appeal to their own fleshly tendencies.

For the time will come when they will not put up with sound doctrine.
Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great
number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 2 Timothy 4:3

1 Thessalonians 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. 22 Abstain from all appearance of evil. 23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24 Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.

1 John 2:20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things. 21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth......

26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. 27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. 28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming. 29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

I disagree with John Calvin for having Servitus arrested and then executed, even though Calvin prefer a different and more humane way of executing him which the N.T. never taught nor condone regardless but excommunication & withdrawing from heretics; not killing them.

Tip toe through the TULIP with me?

I am not a fan of Calvinism. I had posted this thread to show where I disagree with, thus proving everything by Jesus Christ through the scriptures.

There are some Calvinists here for why I understand the need for you to tip toe through it, but feel free to do so as the Lord leads you. God be willing, I shall follow along.

 

[GeneZ]

1 Thessalonians 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. 22 Abstain from all appearance of evil. 23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24 Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.

1 John 2:20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things. 21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth......

26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. 27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. 28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming. 29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

I disagree with John Calvin for having Servitus arrested and then executed, even though Calvin prefer a different and more humane way of executing him which the N.T. never taught nor condone regardless but excommunication & withdrawing from heretics; not killing them.

I am not a fan of Calvinism. I had posted this thread to show where I disagree with, thus proving everything by Jesus Christ through the scriptures.

There are some Calvinists here for why I understand the need for you to tip toe through it, but feel free to do so as the Lord leads you. God be willing, I shall follow along.

My pastor was an excellent scholar told us that TULIP was not totally Calvin's invention.
That a disciple of his, Theodore Beza, after Calvin's death is to take credit for organizing the problems TULIP finds itself in today.
https://www.baptistpress.com/resource-library/sbc-life-articles/the-tulip-of-calvinism/

grace and peace ........................

 

[GeneZ]

I do not see any of us having the ability to choose Him.

John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

The Father gives us to the Son to save us as He foresees who would receive Him from those that prefer their evil deeds.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
Since faith comes from hearing the word of God ;
Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

The Holy Spirit comes from hearing the word of God

Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. 44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

Then our faith in Jesus Christ is a result of grace as the Father has given us the Holy Spirit at the hearing of the word so we can believe in Him.

Thanks for sharing. I can understand your point of view but scripture seems to reprove it & modify it some more as He chose us so we can believe.

We simply choose to believe. But, He chose us when we were to believe!
He chose what we were to become when He knew we would believe!

How and why did he choose us?

Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms ​

with every spiritual blessing in Christ. For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be ​

holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, ​

in accordance with his pleasure and will." Ephesians 1:3-5​

It says something specific... That we were chosen IN HIM. In Him?

Eve was IN Adam before the Lord revealed her in the flesh.

And, we?

"For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God." Col 3:3​

​

We are now the Bride of Christ! We are hidden IN Him!

Hidden in Him just like Eve was hidden in Adam before the Lord took bone of his bone and flesh of his flesh.
Our body shall be just like His own glorious body!

On the other hand?

OT saints were not chosen before the foundation of the world IN HIM.
For they were not chosen before the foundations of the world to become the Bride of Christ.

It does not say that we were chosen to believe. It does not. Simply "chosen in Him."
It means that God chose us out from the entire number of all souls that He knew would ever believe?
To have only some He chose to be His Bride.

To make sure we ended up being the Bride of Christ? He PREDESTINED us.
Predestined us to be born and to believe during the church age.
Predestined as to be living at a time when we are to believe in Christ.

No other believers outside of the Church age were predestined to become the Bride of Christ.

God, if He wanted to? He could have chosen and predestined Moses to be born during the Church age. But, God did not.

grace and peace ....................