Kirk Cameron Rejects Eternal Conscious Torment, Embraces Conditional Immortality

[John Bauer]

Post #9 (the premise there are two completely different and entirely separate creations) deserves it's own [thread]. The assertion and defense of that position is hijacking this [thread]. The premise there is an eternal creation is oxymoronic because if something is created then it is not eternal. It might be everlasting but it's not eternal. However, this thread is not the place to discuss it. Until that digression is addressed and decided, everyone is talking past one another because we're not talking about the same creation.

That thread is now created (here).

 

[JesusFan]

Yes, it is. No one comes back from that. It is forever.

I will agree, however, that annihilation is not “eternal punishing.”



The topic is annihilation, which pertains to the final state; this parable in Luke refers to the intermediate state. Moreover, the wicked are annihilated in gehenna; this parable in Luke refers to hades.

Lake of Fire is the eternal death, but does nor mean cease to exist

 

[Josheb]

Lake of Fire is the eternal death, but does nor mean cease to exist

Does sin still exist in the new heavens and earth?

 

[JesusFan]

Does sin still exist in the new heavens and earth?

The lost still abide forever

 

[Josheb]

The lost still abide forever

Are they present in the new heavens and earth?

 

[JesusFan]

Are they present in the new heavens and earth?

is that all of creation then being reduced to just the earth?

 

[Josheb]

Does sin still exist in the new heavens and earth?

The lost still abide forever

Are they present in the new heavens and earth?

is that all of creation then being reduced to just the earth?

No.

Why in all of the heavens and the earth would the new heavens and earth be reduced to just the earth? Does sin still exist in the new heavens and the earth? Are the sinfully sinful lost still present in the new heavens and the earth?

Revelation 21:1-5
1Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea. 2And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband. 3And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them, 4and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away.” 5And He who sits on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.”

• After Satan, death, hell, and all the sinners are thrown into the fiery lake, the first heaven and earth pass away.
• A new heaven and earth appear.
• God dwells among humans and there is no more death and no more mourning, crying, or pain.
• ALL things are made new.

Does sin exist in the new heavens and earth? Are the sinfully sinful lost present in the new heavens and earth?

 

[JesusFan]

No.

Why in all of the heavens and the earth would the new heavens and earth be reduced to just the earth? Does sin still exist in the new heavens and the earth? Are the sinfully sinful lost still present in the new heavens and the earth?

Revelation 21:1-5
1Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea. 2And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband. 3And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them, 4and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away.” 5And He who sits on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.”

• After Satan, death, hell, and all the sinners are thrown into the fiery lake, the first heaven and earth pass away.
• A new heaven and earth appear.
• God dwells among humans and there is no more death and no more mourning, crying, or pain.
• ALL things are made new.

Does sin exist in the new heavens and earth? Are the sinfully sinful lost present in the new heavens and earth?

We can understand in the fullness of the mind then of Christ, and see that they are experiencing what was required by God to do in order to stay Holy and Right Judge

 

[Josheb]

We can understand in the fullness of the mind then of Christ, and see that they are experiencing what was required by God to do in order to stay Holy and Right Judge

The lost are neither holy nor right, and neither are the obedient to what is required of them by God. In terms of their eternal disposition this op (and I) believe what is required of them is their annihilation. You think it is eternal conscious torment. I, therefore, am asking you if you think sinners, what you have called "the lost," will exist after the first heaven and earth pass away and the new heaven and earth appear where sin, death and pain no longer exist. I'm also growing increasing curious why a simply yes-or-no question isn't answered immediately with a simple yes or no.


Does sin exist in the new heavens and earth? Are the sinfully sinful lost present in the new heavens and earth?


.

 

[Josheb]

Lake of Fire is the eternal death, but does nor mean cease to exist

How can the Lake of Fire be eternal death if death is abolished and there is no death in the new heavens and earth?

And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying,
“Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men,
and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people,
and God Himself will be among them,
and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes;
and there will no longer be any death;
there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain;
the first things have passed away.”​

Eternal conscious torment would be painful, yes?

And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying,
“Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men,
and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people,
and God Himself will be among them,
and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes;
and there will no longer be any death;
there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain;
the first things have passed away.”​

Maybe it's a comfortable, warm, fuzzy, joyous kind of conscious torment .


Does sin and death exist in the new heavens and earth? Are the sinfully sinful lost present in the new heavens and earth?
.

 

[JesusFan]

How can the Lake of Fire be eternal death if death is abolished and there is no death in the new heavens and earth?

And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying,
“Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men,
and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people,
and God Himself will be among them,
and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes;
and there will no longer be any death;
there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain;
the first things have passed away.”​

Eternal conscious torment would be painful, yes?

And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying,
“Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men,
and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people,
and God Himself will be among them,
and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes;
and there will no longer be any death;
there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain;
the first things have passed away.”​

Maybe it's a comfortable, warm, fuzzy, joyous kind of conscious torment .


Does sin and death exist in the new heavens and earth? Are the sinfully sinful lost present in the new heavens and earth?
.

Eternal death is not death in the sense of physical death still abiding in the New State, but it refers to the lost abiding forever in their ruined state cut off from the very presence of God

 

[Josheb]

Eternal death is not death in the sense of physical death still abiding in the New State, but it refers to the lost abiding forever in their ruined state cut off from the very presence of God

That is not an answer to the question asked.

When a person dies physically he's dead. He's not "abiding" in the life of this world anymore. He's gone. His existence is eradicated from this life.
When a person dies in sin he is no longer alive as God made the sinless human. That good, sinless human is gone. He has ceased to exist.
You'd like to spiritualize this but when a person commits sin and becomes dead in sin scripture states the mind of flesh is dead. The word used is thanatos. It means dead. the dead sinners mind is dead. Sin and the sinful flesh and its mind is dead; it is lethal. It is not simply a move of one "state" to another in which life still exists in the other state. Sinners are walking corpses. They breathe air and pump blood but there's no life as God originally provided it in them. They are animated corpses plodding their way to their own demise. When scripture talks about their being "cut off," that simply means they cannot reach God, not God cannot reach them God is always and everywhere God. He is the God of the dead. The sinfully dead, the physically dead, and the dead dead, as well as the dead dead who are dead.
God then takes all the dead in their "ruined state" and throws them in a fire and fire destroys whatever is put into it. That is what fire does. Scripture states death is abolished. It is destroyed. There is no death in the new heaven and earth. There's no death abiding in a new or different state. Death is the ruined state and death is abolished. This ruined state you think persists forever is said to be abolished, destroyed. It is nowhere to be found in the new heaven and earth.

Post 191 is not an answer to the question asked and if it were in any way a an answer it would be the wrong answer. When I ask "Is there any sin, sinner, or death in the new heaven and earth?" what I am asking is "Do you agree with scripture?"

• Do sinners go to hell? Yes
• What happens to hell? It persists as an eternal state. No! It gets tossed into the fiery lake. Hell is an intermediate state, not the final state.
• What happens to hell when it gets thrown into the fiery lake? The lost abide in a ruined state. No! They were in the ruined state when they got tossed into the lake!!! God is getting rid of all ruin on the first heaven and earth. It all passes away. Even death is abolished.

If death is gone then so too is everything else tossed into the lake. Nothing survives it. Death is abolished. Redefining death does not change that fact. There's no more death. There's no more physical death, no more sinful death, no more spiritual death, no more abiding-in-ruin death. No more death. No more kinda dead. No more sorta dead. No more dead dead. No more dead dead dead. There's no more death. It is ALL gone.

So I am going to start over.

Do sinners die?

 

[JesusFan]

That is not an answer to the question asked.

When a person dies physically he's dead. He's not "abiding" in the life of this world anymore. He's gone. His existence is eradicated from this life.
When a person dies in sin he is no longer alive as God made the sinless human. That good, sinless human is gone. He has ceased to exist.
You'd like to spiritualize this but when a person commits sin and becomes dead in sin scripture states the mind of flesh is dead. The word used is thanatos. It means dead. the dead sinners mind is dead. Sin and the sinful flesh and its mind is dead; it is lethal. It is not simply a move of one "state" to another in which life still exists in the other state. Sinners are walking corpses. They breathe air and pump blood but there's no life as God originally provided it in them. They are animated corpses plodding their way to their own demise. When scripture talks about their being "cut off," that simply means they cannot reach God, not God cannot reach them God is always and everywhere God. He is the God of the dead. The sinfully dead, the physically dead, and the dead dead, as well as the dead dead who are dead.
God then takes all the dead in their "ruined state" and throws them in a fire and fire destroys whatever is put into it. That is what fire does. Scripture states death is abolished. It is destroyed. There is no death in the new heaven and earth. There's no death abiding in a new or different state. Death is the ruined state and death is abolished. This ruined state you think persists forever is said to be abolished, destroyed. It is nowhere to be found in the new heaven and earth.

Post 191 is not an answer to the question asked and if it were in any way a an answer it would be the wrong answer. When I ask "Is there any sin, sinner, or death in the new heaven and earth?" what I am asking is "Do you agree with scripture?"

• Do sinners go to hell? Yes
• What happens to hell? It persists as an eternal state. No! It gets tossed into the fiery lake. Hell is an intermediate state, not the final state.
• What happens to hell when it gets thrown into the fiery lake? The lost abide in a ruined state. No! They were in the ruined state when they got tossed into the lake!!! God is getting rid of all ruin on the first heaven and earth. It all passes away. Even death is abolished.

If death is gone then so too is everything else tossed into the lake. Nothing survives it. Death is abolished. Redefining death does not change that fact. There's no more death. There's no more physical death, no more sinful death, no more spiritual death, no more abiding-in-ruin death. No more death. No more kinda dead. No more sorta dead. No more dead dead. No more dead dead dead. There's no more death. It is ALL gone.

So I am going to start over.

Do sinners die?

Are you holding to a form of soul sleep here?

 

[makesends]

Josheb said:

When a person dies physically he's dead. He's not "abiding" in the life of this world anymore. He's gone. His existence is eradicated from this life.
When a person dies in sin he is no longer alive as God made the sinless human. That good, sinless human is gone. He has ceased to exist.
You'd like to spiritualize this but when a person commits sin and becomes dead in sin scripture states the mind of flesh is dead. The word used is thanatos. It means dead. the dead sinners mind is dead. Sin and the sinful flesh and its mind is dead; it is lethal. It is not simply a move of one "state" to another in which life still exists in the other state. Sinners are walking corpses. They breathe air and pump blood but there's no life as God originally provided it in them. They are animated corpses plodding their way to their own demise. When scripture talks about their being "cut off," that simply means they cannot reach God, not God cannot reach them God is always and everywhere God. He is the God of the dead. The sinfully dead, the physically dead, and the dead dead, as well as the dead dead who are dead.
God then takes all the dead in their "ruined state" and throws them in a fire and fire destroys whatever is put into it. That is what fire does. Scripture states death is abolished. It is destroyed. There is no death in the new heaven and earth. There's no death abiding in a new or different state. Death is the ruined state and death is abolished. This ruined state you think persists forever is said to be abolished, destroyed. It is nowhere to be found in the new heaven and earth.

This is a good background for the clinical, "fallen short of the glory of God", involved in moral blame. Those insisting on self-determinism want the sinner to be worth something beyond what God says they are. That they are ruined already, and already condemned (John 3:18), placing them in the 'worthless' category. Their blame is clinically according to their rejection, whether or not they are dead in Adam and dead because of the wages of their own sin. We are in Adam. What more are we than that, until God places us in Christ? Who does man think he is?

This also makes good reference for the question of ECT vs Annihilation, for all sides. It supports Annihilation, if the notion of "that is what fire does" is indeed exhaustively valid, as the Annihilationist supposes. As I conceive of the 'nothingness' of the human without Christ, (whether by ECT or by Annihilationism (or by my third notion of FACT is FACT, so the best I can come up with is the FACT of the dead put to death, thus "Intensity")), the worth of the dead person put to death is no great loss, in this clinical view of the nature of sin.

But don't get me wrong. I am not saying that any human is worthless. But in comparison to the glory of God, is one who God has made for temporal purposes and for demonstration of the power of God's purity and Glory, and of mercy toward the objects of his mercy—is that person, I ask, really worth something besides the purposes to which God made him?

But maybe you or someone can better make my point.

 

[Josheb]

Are you holding to a form of soul sleep here?

Nope. I believe to be out of the body is to be with the Lord. There's no waiting room or waystation.