Justification by Faith Alone

[brightfame52]

Before Gospel Obedience and while ungodly !

Are those that Jesus Christ died for, Justified from all sin before God's Law and Justice prior to any Gospel Obedience they shall render, such as Faith and Repentance ? Yes by all means they are, or how else can it be declared that God Justifieth the Ungodly Rom 4:4-6

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

Gospel Obedience to the Truth is Godliness Titus 1:1

Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

Now if God Justifieth the Ungodly, then it cannot be after an act of Godliness ! And if it be not of works so that it can be of Grace, then it cannot be of any condition that was imposed upon the one being Justified !

Also if they [The Justified ones] are believing on Him [Rom 8:33] that is Justifying the Ungodly, then the verdict of Justification is being passed upon them while being Ungodly; Hence how can Faith, Repentance, or any Gospel ordinance or obedience be a condition to Justification before God , when its based upon Christ's Finished Work for them ?

Then once again, men that Christ died for are Justified before God apart from Faith or any obedience from them.

They are being Justified while nothing is in them but ungodliness and enmity against God , even as they are reconciled to God while being enemies, by the Death of His Son Rom 5:10, now if we are not Justified before God before we act obedience of Faith or Repentance, then we were not Justified as being Ungodly, but as Godly and Obedience, which would contradict Rom 4:5, where its plainly stated that God Justified the Ungodly !

 

[brightfame52]

Rom 3:24 says it all !

Rom 3:24

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

This verse actually teaches the Gospel of God's Grace, and it speaks of Justification before God simply premised on Grace , because of or for the sake of the Redemption that is in Christ Jesus, meaning His Death, His Tasting Death by the Grace of God Heb 2:9, each man He tasted death for , they are freely Justified thereby, and this Justification is apart from any Gospel obedience of their own, be it faith obedience, or repentance obedience, for if it had anything to do with any act of their own, then it was not freely done by God.

That word freely is the greek word dórean and means:

as a free gift, without payment, freely, something freely done (as gratis), i.e. without "cause"; unearned (undeserved); freely given (without cost) hence not done out of mere obligation or compulsion.

See Faith and Repentance are obligations, God commands Repentance Acts 17:30

30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Commanding means its an obligation, its a compulsion to be adhered to, complied with !

So If God Justified any based upon a compliance to His Command, then it was not done freely by His Grace as stated in the text Rom 3:24, simple as that !

 

[Eleanor]

By Christ ! Justification is soley by Christ, Faith points to what Christ has done, you are making faith the saviour !

You don't understand Eph 2:8-9.

 

[brightfame52]

You don't understand Eph 2:8-9.

See posts 377-382

 

[brightfame52]

Rom 3:24 says it all !2

This Justification in Rom 3:24 God does bestow or impute or charge to, or reckon to, all for whom Christ died, and this without any demand whatsover on their persons, but solely on the Gift Imputed through the Work of Christ, or the Redemption that is in Him Rom 5:18b

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon[By Imputation or Reckoning] all men unto justification of life.

Also Rom 5:19

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

This being made Righteous is by imputation of what Christ has done, its charged to the Elect's Sinner Account, and God reckons him or her, because of or through Christ, as if they had done everything that the Law of God requires, so in actuality they are these Rom 2:13

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Thats because that Obedience that Christ rendered to God's Law, all that was required of the Law of God Matt 22:37-40

37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

38 This is the first and great commandment.

39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.


This has been charged to everyone Christ died for, as a Free Gift, even while they are unbelievers and enemies ! Thats because its all of Grace they have been freely Justified !

 

[Eleanor]

See posts 377-382

Neither of which are Eph 2:8-9, which you do not understand.

 

[brightfame52]

More on Rom 4:5 Ungodly Justified !

Rom 4:5

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Folks we do not believe in Justification by Faith unless we understand that we were Justified first by God while in a ungodly and faithless state !

The statement "him that justifieth the ungodly" is true only if He does Justify them while being Ungodly, being ungodly as in the present tense, while presently being in a state of Ungodliness. The scripture proves that God's Elect, those Christ died for Rom 8:33-34, that while in an active state of ungodliness, that at the same time they were in a state of passive Justification of Life Rom 5:18b

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

The reason for this is because all for whom He died, has had a Robe of Righteousness imputed to them, For God hath made Him be unto them 1 Cor 1:30

30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

And again, this while we are being in ourselves ungodly and enemies Rom 5:10, and such scripture as these establish the fact that God's Elect whom Christ died are Justified before God prior, anterior to Faith !

 

[Eleanor]

More on Rom 4:5 Ungodly Justified !
Rom 4:5
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Folks we do not believe in Justification by Faith unless we understand that we were Justified first by God while in a ungodly and faithless state !
The statement "him that justifieth the ungodly" is true only if He does Justify them while being Ungodly, being ungodly as in the present tense, while presently being in a state of Ungodliness. The scripture proves that God's Elect, those Christ died for Rom 8:33-34, that while in an active state of ungodliness, that at the same time they were in a state of passive Justification of Life Rom 5:18b

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
The reason for this is because all for whom He died, has had a Robe of Righteousness imputed to them, For God hath made Him be unto them 1 Cor 1:30
30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
And again, this while we are being in ourselves ungodly and enemies Rom 5:10, and such scripture as these establish the fact that
God's Elect whom Christ died are Justified before God prior, anterior to Faith !

Everything God has decreed for time is prior/anterior to its actual occurence in time.

But in time it is not actual until it occurs, and in time justification by faith
(declaration of "not guilty," sentence of acquittal, pronouncement of sinlessness-->absence of sin not to be confused with presence of righteousness)
occurs after salvation by faith and before the imputed righteousness of Christ (Ro 1:17, 3:21-22, 5:18-19, Php 3:29).

faith --> salvation --> justification --> imputed righteousness of Christ

 

[makesends]

Everything God has decreed for time is prior/anterior to its actual occurence in time.

But in time it is not actual until it occurs, and in time justification by faith
(declaration of "not guilty," sentence of acquittal, pronouncement of sinlessness-->absence of sin not to be confused with presence of righteousness)
occurs after salvation by faith and before the imputed righteousness of Christ (Ro 1:17, 3:21-22, 5:18-19, Php 3:29).

faith --> salvation --> justification --> imputed righteousness of Christ

To emphasize what you are saying, or further describe it:

Grammatically, the Greek pluperfect, unlike the English past perfect, denotes "more than" completed action in the past. The English may include combinations such as, "we had been walking", but the Greek does not. Similarly, the Greek aorist denotes point-in-time action, whether past or otherwise. My father was a Greek master, but of a multi-lingual background. He was skeptical of these rules we have made for the meaning of tenses in different languages. He was so familiar with the New Testament that he could come up with examples for just about everything. The Aorist Subjunctive Active with which "to forgive" in 1 John 1:9 is written, he said more accurately reflects the pluperfect, in which it is necessarily implied that the forgiveness IS INDEED completed "point in time" action in the past, BUT, unlike the English subjunctive, which according to [particularly modern, I think] English-speaking mindset seems to imply that it was uncertain whether the forgiveness happened, it only (and necessarily) implies that the forgiveness is indeed contingent on the confessing —which 'confessing', by the way, is NOT a point-in-time thing, but a continuing action.

Thus, what is translated in most English versions more or less like the ESV, "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.", would more accurately be (but somewhat awkwardly), "If we are confessing our sins, he is faithful and just to have already forgiven our sins, and to have already cleansed us from all unrighteousness." (Disclaimer, FWIW—my dad was definitely in the minority, that the common English translation was doctrinally inadequate.)

Not all references to this principle are as noticeable in the Greek (or Hebrew), but it is pervasive throughout scriptures. Just one example is Romans 10:10's "belief unto righteousness" and "confession unto salvation". You have heard me say that the preposition, 'unto', there, does not mean that the decision of believing (trusting with submission, shall we say) causes Salvation, but that it is in keeping with Salvation. The ancients did not generally attribute causality to the action of men done "in keeping with" God's facts.

Thus, too, then, regardless of what has already been completed at the cross, its effectiveness is indeed contingent on (not necessarily causally, but reflexively, "in keeping with") what happens/happened at other times, points in time, or currently. Our justification was DONE at the cross, but contingent on a host of other facts/events that Scripture tells us about.

Koiné Greek is not English—not even nearly. It involves a whole different mindset and a different structure of assumptions and weights or importances of different concepts. Take, for example, the word, "Birth". To the ancient mindset, a huge range of concepts come into play just from that one word, in any sentence. A discussion about birth was understood differently, back then, compared to the same discussion nowadays. I wish it was possible to convey the importance of the difference between languages, and how they affect what/how we think. (Lol, sorry about the shameless plug—no, I won't include the link!)

"We do so because it is so."

 

[brightfame52]

More on Rom 4:5 Ungodly Justified !

If Justified before Faith, we are [if Christ died for us] Justified before our existence ! Now if scripture gives evidence of God's Elect being Justified before God before their Faith and even while being ungodly, being premised solely on the imputed righteousness of their Surety, then its very plausible, as a consequence of that same Imputed Righteousness that the Elect are Justified in the Sight of God before their actual [in time] existence, lest we conclude that the Surety Righteousness of Christ did not have that type of Merit and Excellence and transcendence in and of itself to Justify, but that it did need ones act of Faith to give it that Virtue !

 

[Eleanor]

More on Rom 4:5 Ungodly Justified !

If Justified before Faith, we are [if Christ died for us] Justified before our existence ! Now if scripture gives evidence of God's Elect being Justified before God before their Faith and even while being ungodly, being premised solely on the imputed righteousness of their Surety, then its very plausible, as a consequence of that same Imputed Righteousness that the Elect are Justified in the Sight of God before their actual [in time] existence, lest we conclude that the Surety Righteousness of Christ did not have that type of Merit and Excellence and transcendence in and of itself to Justify, but that it did need ones act of Faith to give it that Virtue !

It's not about giving virtue, anymore than the seed preceding the plant is about giving virtue.
It's about what God has ordained and revealed in his word written regarding his salvation from his condemnation at the Judgment.
He has revealed that salvation is through the gift of faith (Php 1:29, 2 Pe 1:1, Ac 13:48, 18:27, Ro 12:3) in Jesus Christ for the remission of one's sin (Eph 2:8-9). . .no faith = no salvation.

Gift of faith --> salvation (remission of sin) --> justification (declaration of sinlessness) --> imputed righteousness of Christ --> sanctification (through obedience in the Holy Spirit).

 

[Eleanor]

All are ungodly until they are justified (declared sinless) through faith (Ro 3:28) and the righteousness of Christ imputed to them (Ro 1:17, 3:21, 4:5, Php 3:9

 

[brightfame52]

It's not about giving virtue, anymore than the seed preceding the plant is about giving virtue.
It's about what God has ordained and revealed in his word written regarding his salvation from his condemnation at the Judgment.
He has revealed that salvation is through the gift of faith (Php 1:29, 2 Pe 1:1, Ac 13:48, 18:27, Ro 12:3) in Jesus Christ for the remission of one's sin (Eph 2:8-9). . .no faith = no salvation.

Gift of faith --> salvation (remission of sin) --> justification (declaration of sinlessness) --> imputed righteousness of Christ --> sanctification (through obedience in the Holy Spirit).

https://christcentered.community.forum/threads/justification-by-faith-alone.2068/page-19#post-121648 Please read

 

[Eleanor]

https://christcentered.community.forum/threads/justification-by-faith-alone.2068/page-19#post-121648 Please read

We are not justified by our own works (performance).

Faith is not a performance, it is a disposition, just as hope and love are dispositions, they are not works (performance).

You do not have a Biblical understanding of Christian faith.

 

[makesends]

More on Rom 4:5 Ungodly Justified !

If Justified before Faith, we are [if Christ died for us] Justified before our existence ! Now if scripture gives evidence of God's Elect being Justified before God before their Faith and even while being ungodly, being premised solely on the imputed righteousness of their Surety, then its very plausible, as a consequence of that same Imputed Righteousness that the Elect are Justified in the Sight of God before their actual [in time] existence, lest we conclude that the Surety Righteousness of Christ did not have that type of Merit and Excellence and transcendence in and of itself to Justify, but that it did need ones act of Faith to give it that Virtue !

Whoever wrote that, if indeed they meant it the way you are taking it, is employing false equivalence. They are applying, as you have been all along, temporal principles to eternal fact.

 

[brightfame52]

We are not justified by our own works (performance).

Faith is not a performance, it is a disposition, just as hope and love are dispositions, they are not works (performance).

You do not have a Biblical understanding of Christian faith.

Then that argues one isn't justified b4 God until holy dispositions are in them. Thats not good.

 

[makesends]

Then that argues one isn't justified b4 God until holy dispositions are in them. Thats not good.

There you go again with the temporal principles applied to eternal fact.

 

[Eleanor]

Then that argues one isn't justified b4 God until holy dispositions are in them. Thats not good.

Justification follows the gift of faith (holy disposition, Php 1:29, 2 Pe 1:1, Ac 13:48, 18:27, Ro 12:3), which faith saves.

Faith --> salvation --> justification --> imputed righteousness (see post #393). . .all are God's work.

 

[brightfame52]

There you go again with the temporal principles applied to eternal fact.

I dont even know what you talking about. But I know faith is a holy disposition, as is love.

 

[makesends]

brightfame52 said:
Then that argues one isn't justified b4 God until holy dispositions are in them. Thats not good.

Justification follows the gift of faith (holy disposition, Php 1:29, 2 Pe 1:1, Ac 13:48, 18:27, Ro 12:3), which faith saves.

Faith --> salvation --> justification --> imputed righteousness (see post #393). . .all are God's work.

And salvation and justification both through faith, which is not of ourselves. The three are, for all temporal purposes, simultaneously "gift of God".