Justification by Faith Alone

[brightfame52]

I think you two are getting into the weeds about how to say something you both basically agree on.

Consider what @Eleanor affirms, here:

--I could get wound up with her, disagreeing on the first phrase of that! Even the Arminian and Pelagian will protest that faith is not a work, not a performing, (but they don't mean it how we do (to include both @Hazelelponi and @brightfame52 ).) They earnestly believe that faith is not a work, but they claim it is OUR faith given us by God by God convincing us (or other words that amount to the same thing) by which they mean that faith is not belief except by us willing to submit to Christ (or other words to that effect).

But I don't disagree with her, except with her arrangement of words. We both believe the same thing there. I think we all four believe the same thing on this. But maybe I'm missing something. None of us believe in libertarian free will.

We dont agree, for the elect are born Justified by God by Christs blood, while they are n unbelief.

 

[Eleanor]

If you make anything a condition, its works ! Even if its Faith

That would be your theology. . .which is not the NT theology.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Now what are you talking about ? If you condition Justification b4 God on a requirement, its works works works

Faith is not a work—it's the God-given means by which we receive Christ, not something by which we earn Him.

Romans 4:5 couldn't be clearer:

“To the one who does not work but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness.”

Faith isn't presented as doing something for God, but as trusting in what God has done.

Ephesians 2:8–9 says,

“For by grace you have been saved through faith—and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.”

If faith were a meritorious work, it would give room for boasting. But Paul says the entire package, including faith, is God’s gift. It excludes boasting, not invites it.

Moreover, Philippians 1:29 says,

“It has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in Him but also suffer for His sake.”

Faith is granted—not conjured up from within.

So to say plainly: faith is not a contribution to salvation, it’s the means by which justification is applied in time. Faith is poured out on and into us. Unmerited.

 

[Hazelelponi]

maybe I'm missing something.

Yes, we seem to have moved past agreement now, quite openly.

 

[makesends]

If you make anything a condition, its works ! Even if its Faith

That would depend on what you mean by condition. "Condition" can have to do with description, not just causation. With John 3, for example, it is valid to say that a being born from above is one of the conditions upon which it can be determined as to whether a person will see the Kingdom of Heaven. If he is not, he will not. Simple as that.

But you are correct, if Faith is something of man's act, mind, will or deed through which he is born again. It is only by God's doing that one is saved through Faith.

 

[makesends]

Faith is not a work—it's the God-given means by which we receive Christ, not something by which we earn Him.

Romans 4:5 couldn't be clearer:

“To the one who does not work but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness.”

Faith isn't presented as doing something for God, but as trusting in what God has done.

Ephesians 2:8–9 says,

“For by grace you have been saved through faith—and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.”

If faith were a meritorious work, it would give room for boasting. But Paul says the entire package, including faith, is God’s gift. It excludes boasting, not invites it.

Moreover, Philippians 1:29 says,

“It has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in Him but also suffer for His sake.”

Faith is granted—not conjured up from within.

So to say plainly: faith is not a contribution to salvation, it’s the means by which justification is applied in time. Faith is poured out on and into us. Unmerited.

Except for your last line, which is very clearly shows salvation is not hinged on the decision of man, I could hear at least two that have been here and gone in the past, saying that God convinced them, therefore, the faith is not a work. They would accept everything you said up until that last line, "Faith is poured out on and into us." Very nice.

 

[makesends]

We dont agree, for the elect are born Justified by God by Christs blood, while they are n unbelief.

Ok

 

[brightfame52]

Justification an act of God's Grace ! 2

#2 Those whom Christ was made sin for, by imputation, having their sins charged to Him as their Surety, they as He was for them, Justified at His Resurrection, or we can say at their Resurrection with Him ! This is True because of the testimony Rom 4:25

25 Who was delivered for[because of] our offences, and was raised again for[because of] our justification.

Folks this scripture alone should silence all opposes to the Truth of Justification before God of those Christ died for before Faith ! The testimony of the Truth is right here !

When Jesus Christ was vindicated by the Resurrection from the dead, it was not as a private person for himself, but for those whose offences he was delivered for , those of His Body the Church See Eph 5:25 !

Paul goes into some detail about this relationship in Rom 5:12ff, and then he writes in Rom 6:4

4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

That's because they were also raised up together with Him by the Glory of the Father by Union with Him, so again Christ was not raised up as an private individual, but as a federal head representative, OT Prophecy predicted this Union of Christ and His members in Union at His Resurrection Isa 26:19

Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.

Now just as Christ was delivered up for their offences, and not his personally, so likewise, His resurrection from the dead as proof of His being Justified, was not for His own personal Justification, but of those who's offences He was delivered for !

Again, this condemns all who teach that man must exercise faith in Christ to be Justified from all sin before God's Law and Justice, for that is just not so , and it detracts from the death of Christ's accomplishment and calls the Resurrection of Him a Lie !

 

[brightfame52]

@makesends

That would depend on what you mean by condition. "Condition"

Cmon you know what I mean

 

[brightfame52]

Ok

Okay, so do you agree ? Yes or No

 

[brightfame52]

@Hazelelponi

Faith is not a work—it's the God-given means by which we receive Christ, not something by which we earn Him.

Technically its not being that its a noun, but believing and receiving are works. Man is active. Once you make man active in Justification b4 God, its works.

 

[Arial]

@Hazelelponi



Technically its not being that its a noun, but believing and receiving are works. Man is active. Once you make man active in Justification b4 God, its works.

All of salvation is monergistic, including the regeneration that brings with it faith. No regeneration. No faith. Regeneration. Faith. The faith/belief in the person and work of Jesus, and that is absolutely necessary according to Scripture ("by grace") ("through faith")is a part of the work of the Holy Spirit applying the work of Jesus to us in regeneration.

We are passive as to being saved but we are not passive as saved. We actually do believe. and continue to believe. The work done in us and that continues to be done in us, is producing the fruit of salvation, of our union with Christ. The branch bearing the fruit of the vine.

We believe because he changed our hearts. We receive it because he grants it to us. "Receiving" there is not accepting something offered, but the vessel filled. His love poured into us.

 

[makesends]

@makesends



Cmon you know what I mean

I make the point because you keep doing that: You do the same with your private arrangement of facts, that we are already justified before God before we are even regenerated, because it happened by Christ's blood.

You will not accept causation of fact --indeed, God's very decree-- as a separate thing from false equivalence drawn on temporal sequence of fact, no matter how often or how well it is shown you. You are enthralled with your own lines of logic.

You want us to agree with your terms, and complain when we don't, doubling down on your statements, but you won't agree with ours. I agree it happened at the cross. It also happened when God spoke all fact into existence. It also happened when we were regenerated.

 

[makesends]

Okay, so do you agree ? Yes or No

With what? With both of you? Not if you disagree with @Hazelelponi.

 

[makesends]

@Hazelelponi



Technically its not being that its a noun, but believing and receiving are works. Man is active. Once you make man active in Justification b4 God, its works.

I started to rate your post as "cool". But, come to think of it, believing and receiving are not necessarily. From the temporal view of before-and-after, that ignores God's work --that is, that arranges God's work as only part of the equation instead of the whole thing, from beginning to end and from divinity and power to the most miniscule motion of particle and force-- and adds some component by man, you are right. But if receiving is all the work of God upon man as a vessel is filled and used, and does NOT involve man's will as causal of his faith and salvation, then believing and receiving are not works.

But, further, believing and receiving are shown as part of the 'process' in many places in Scripture, but not as acts of the will of the recipients of faith and regeneration. In such a way that I have to think to say that "believing and receiving are works" is contrary to scripture. They are only works as the synergist conceives of them and describes them --not as the Bible does.

 

[brightfame52]

@Arial

We believe because he changed our hearts

Then thats a work of righteousness, a good work following being created Eph 2:10

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Do you believe one is Justified b4 God by good works following regeneration ?

 

[brightfame52]

I make the point because you keep doing that: You do the same with your private arrangement of facts, that we are already justified before God before we are even regenerated, because it happened by Christ's blood.

You will not accept causation of fact --indeed, God's very decree-- as a separate thing from false equivalence drawn on temporal sequence of fact, no matter how often or how well it is shown you. You are enthralled with your own lines of logic.

You want us to agree with your terms, and complain when we don't, doubling down on your statements, but you won't agree with ours. I agree it happened at the cross. It also happened when God spoke all fact into existence. It also happened when we were regenerated.

Do you believe Justification b4 God, forgiveness of sins is conditioned upon our act of believing or anything we do ?

 

[brightfame52]

With what? With both of you? Not if you disagree with @Hazelelponi.

Do you agree with me on this statement:

for the elect are born Justified by God by Christs blood, while they are n unbelief.

 

[brightfame52]

I started to rate your post as "cool". But, come to think of it, believing and receiving are not necessarily. From the temporal view of before-and-after, that ignores God's work --that is, that arranges God's work as only part of the equation instead of the whole thing, from beginning to end and from divinity and power to the most miniscule motion of particle and force-- and adds some component by man, you are right. But if receiving is all the work of God upon man as a vessel is filled and used, and does NOT involve man's will as causal of his faith and salvation, then believing and receiving are not works.

But, further, believing and receiving are shown as part of the 'process' in many places in Scripture, but not as acts of the will of the recipients of faith and regeneration. In such a way that I have to think to say that "believing and receiving are works" is contrary to scripture. They are only works as the synergist conceives of them and describes them --not as the Bible does.

So believing isnt something done by the person ?

 

[makesends]

So believing isnt something done by the person ?

Your logic is solid, but ill-conceived (i.e. it is drawn on your use of language). Faith is something done in and to the elect; if one does not believe, they are condemned already. It is not their contribution to salvation.