Is There a Contradiction?

[Josheb]

Is there a contradiction between these two verses?

Hebrews 9:27 BLB
And inasmuch as it is apportioned to men to die once, and after this, judgment, 28 so also Christ, having been offered once in order to bear the sins of many, will appear for a second time, apart from sin, to those awaiting Him for salvation.

Hebrews 11:5 BLB
By faith Enoch was translated not to see death, and he was not found, because God had taken him up. For before the translation, he was commended to have pleased God.


The first verse states men is apportioned to die once but the second states Enoch did not see death. And if not, then how are these two verses reconciled so as not to contradict one another? Scripture elsewhere implies resurrection (in Christ) is the means of transformation unto eternal life. Jesus, who is the resurrection and the life without whom no one can reach the Father or have eternal life, and resurrection implies a receding death (if there is no death then from what might that person be raised or resurrected and thereby transformed into immortality or eternal life?). Assuming Enoch believed in Christ, how is it he was able to be translated (transformed?) without the apportioned death and judgment of Hebrews 9:27, and then be raised from that death (ala 1 Corinthians 15:36)?

 

[Mr GLee]

Is there a contradiction between these two verses?

Hebrews 9:27 BLB
And inasmuch as it is apportioned to men to die once, and after this, judgment, 28 so also Christ, having been offered once in order to bear the sins of many, will appear for a second time, apart from sin, to those awaiting Him for salvation.

Hebrews 11:5 BLB
By faith Enoch was translated not to see death, and he was not found, because God had taken him up. For before the translation, he was commended to have pleased God.


The first verse states men is apportioned to die once but the second states Enoch did not see death. And if not, then how are these two verses reconciled so as not to contradict one another? Scripture elsewhere implies resurrection (in Christ) is the means of transformation unto eternal life. Jesus, who is the resurrection and the life without whom no one can reach the Father or have eternal life, and resurrection implies a receding death (if there is no death then from what might that person be raised or resurrected and thereby transformed into immortality or eternal life?). Assuming Enoch believed in Christ, how is it he was able to be translated (transformed?) without the apportioned death and judgment of Hebrews 9:27, and then be raised from that death (ala 1 Corinthians 15:36)?

By the power of faith of Christ that worked in Enoch he did not see death

The same spirit of faith that works in all of the sons of God Enioch being powerless had no faith of his wown that could lease Christ wh o worked in Enoch

2 Corinthians 4:13 We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak

Faith= power

No faith = no power

 

[Josheb]

By the power of faith of Christ that worked in Enoch he did not see death

In which case Hebrews 9:27 is not true or correct.

The same spirit of faith that works in all of the sons of God Enioch being powerless had no faith of his wown that could lease Christ wh o worked in Enoch

2 Corinthians 4:13 We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak

Faith= power

No faith = no power

Which does nothing to resolve the contradiction with Hebrews 9:27's claim every human must die and face judgment.

Give it another try.

 

[Mr GLee]

In which case Hebrews 9:27 is not true or correct.

Which does nothing to resolve the contradiction with Hebrews 9:27's claim every human must die and face judgment.

Give it another try.

There will not be two trials or double jeapordy .

All have sinned and continue daily to fall short of the power needed to live forever.

Death as to the letter of the law (thou shall not) and its suffering of hell will be cast into the final fiery judgment

The death of death. It will not rise up and condemn the new creation .Old things to include the book of law will not be remembered or ever come to mind .

Now is the time we can offer good works the better thing that acompanies salvation.

God will not forget the good works offered towards his name (power) .Hebrews 6, calls them the better thing that accompanies salvation. Faithful .Power to please

Revelation 20:14 And death and hell (suffering) were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Assuming Enoch believed in Christ, how is it he was able to be translated (transformed?) without the apportioned death and judgment of Hebrews 9:27, and then be raised from that death (ala 1 Corinthians 15:36)?

I believe there are scriptural grounds for believing Enoch to be the same man as Melchizedek, having "the power of an endless life" (Hebrews 7:16).

Christ was intended to become our Great High Priest after the deathless order of Melchizedek. God only needed a single man to provide the origin of this deathless order that Christ would fulfill. Nobody else ever did or ever will get a translation change (like Enoch / Melchizedek) of their bodies to an endless life without first dying. The "rapture" that Paul spoke of did not include a translation-type change for those caught up to meet the Lord in the air. The Hebrews 9:27 restriction applies to all men who are appointed to die ONCE. Enoch / Melchizedek only excepted, in order to establish the pattern of the deathless order of Melchizedek.

 

[fastfredy0]

how is it he was able to be translated (transformed?) without the apportioned death and judgment of Hebrews 9:27, and then be raised from that death (ala 1 Corinthians 15:36)?

Perhaps Enoch died after his being taken to heaven.

 

[LeviR]

Is there a contradiction between these two verses?

Hebrews 9:27 BLB
And inasmuch as it is apportioned to men to die once, and after this, judgment, 28 so also Christ, having been offered once in order to bear the sins of many, will appear for a second time, apart from sin, to those awaiting Him for salvation.

Hebrews 11:5 BLB
By faith Enoch was translated not to see death, and he was not found, because God had taken him up. For before the translation, he was commended to have pleased God.


The first verse states men is apportioned to die once but the second states Enoch did not see death. And if not, then how are these two verses reconciled so as not to contradict one another? Scripture elsewhere implies resurrection (in Christ) is the means of transformation unto eternal life. Jesus, who is the resurrection and the life without whom no one can reach the Father or have eternal life, and resurrection implies a receding death (if there is no death then from what might that person be raised or resurrected and thereby transformed into immortality or eternal life?). Assuming Enoch believed in Christ, how is it he was able to be translated (transformed?) without the apportioned death and judgment of Hebrews 9:27, and then be raised from that death (ala 1 Corinthians 15:36)?

Enoch being translated does not negate the principle that it is appointed to all men to die once.
Neither does it negate the rapture.

Jesus said:

Jhn 3:13
“No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.“

Jesus was not refuting that Enoch, Elijah or Moses were in heaven, he was questioning Nicodemus on his ability to understand heavenly ideas as opposed to earthly ones. Specifically speaking of himself.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Jesus was not refuting that Enoch, Elijah or Moses were in heaven,

Uhhh, YES, He was refuting that. Neither Enoch, Elijah, nor Moses were in heaven until a particular point in time, and that specific time when perfected mankind was allowed to enter heaven's temple is referred to in Revelation 15:8. That text tells us that NO MAN in a perfected state was allowed into heaven's temple until the 7 vials had been poured out and finished. No sooner than that.

Elijah was not taken into God's presence in heaven. The LXX says Elijah "was taken as it were into heaven". He was merely transported by the whirlwind into the atmospheric heavens - the sky - to another location on the planet where Elijah wrote that letter to King Jehoram listing the kings sins and predicting the manner of his coming death (2 Chron. 21:12). This was some 10 years after Elijah's whirlwind transport into the sky.

Perhaps Enoch died after his being taken to heaven.

Scripture never says Enoch was taken to heaven. It merely says that the Lord "took him". Just where Enoch was taken, scripture does not specify. But since other scriptures say that no man ascended to heaven until Rev. 15:8 after the 7 vial judgments were finished, then we know that the Lord had not taken Enoch into heaven back in the OT.

Neither does it negate the rapture.

Uhh, YES, Hebrews 9:27 does negate what people think the "rapture" entails. None of us are promised a translation-type change of our bodies without our having physically died the one appointed time. Nobody gets off this planet without dying. Not even the believers at Christ's next return. "As in Adam, ALL die".

 

[LeviR]

Uhhh, YES, He was refuting that. Neither Enoch, Elijah, nor Moses were in heaven until a particular point in time, and that specific time when perfected mankind was allowed to enter heaven's temple is referred to in Revelation 15:8. That text tells us that NO MAN in a perfected state was allowed into heaven's temple until the 7 vials had been poured out and finished. No sooner than that.

Elijah was not taken into God's presence in heaven. The LXX says Elijah "was taken as it were into heaven". He was merely transported by the whirlwind into the atmospheric heavens - the sky - to another location on the planet where Elijah wrote that letter to King Jehoram listing the kings sins and predicting the manner of his coming death (2 Chron. 21:12). This was some 10 years after Elijah's whirlwind transport into the sky.


Scripture never says Enoch was taken to heaven. It merely says that the Lord "took him". Just where Enoch was taken, scripture does not specify. But since other scriptures say that no man ascended to heaven until Rev. 15:8 after the 7 vial judgments were finished, then we know that the Lord had not taken Enoch into heaven back in the OT.


Uhh, YES, Hebrews 9:27 does negate what people think the "rapture" entails. None of us are promised a translation-type change of our bodies without our having physically died the one appointed time. Nobody gets off this planet without dying. Not even the believers at Christ's next return. "As in Adam, ALL die".

At the transfiguration, Jesus coming in his glory, Elijah representing the translated ones (raptured) and Moses, the dead raised.
All coming together. Nice!

A classic example of the coming kingdom.

 

[Josheb]

There will not be two trials or double jeapordy .

All have sinned and continue daily to fall short of the power needed to live forever.

Death as to the letter of the law (thou shall not) and its suffering of hell will be cast into the final fiery judgment

The death of death. It will not rise up and condemn the new creation .Old things to include the book of law will not be remembered or ever come to mind .

Now is the time we can offer good works the better thing that acompanies salvation.

God will not forget the good works offered towards his name (power) .Hebrews 6, calls them the better thing that accompanies salvation. Faithful .Power to please

Revelation 20:14 And death and hell (suffering) were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

That still does not reconcile the assertions Enoch never died but all men must die. (btw, the second death comes after the judgment that follows the earlier death)


.

 

[Josheb]

I believe there are scriptural grounds for believing Enoch to be the same man as Melchizedek, having "the power of an endless life" (Hebrews 7:16).

Christ was intended to become our Great High Priest after the deathless order of Melchizedek. God only needed a single man to provide the origin of this deathless order that Christ would fulfill. Nobody else ever did or ever will get a translation change (like Enoch / Melchizedek) of their bodies to an endless life without first dying. The "rapture" that Paul spoke of did not include a translation-type change for those caught up to meet the Lord in the air. The Hebrews 9:27 restriction applies to all men who are appointed to die ONCE. Enoch / Melchizedek only excepted, in order to establish the pattern of the deathless order of Melchizedek.

That's very interesting. I'd like to read the case for Enoch being Mel, especially since (chronologically speaking) they lived many generations apart from one another. That would imply Enoch was "taken up" (presumably to God's presence) and then later returned to earth, which might create another contradiction because John 3:3, John 1:18 and John 6:46. There are many in Christendom that think Melchizedek was a Christophany, but that wouldn't solve the problem of Enoch not dying and facing judgment ala Heb. 9:27 (and I do not want to get far afield of this op's specific inquiry (-ies)).. Even Jesus died and faced judgment. The point Enoch is an exception is commendable (because it's true) but, while all of Post 5 is interesting and I am interested in the rationale and exegesis forming that position, it doesn't provide a reconciliation for the real or perceived conflict.

All men must die once, but Enoch didn't die. Did he die at some point that is either veiled or not stated in scripture? Has he got a death coming that isn't recorded in scripture? Upon what basis might he be the exception to the rule (a position I myself have asserted many times)?

 

[Josheb]

Perhaps Enoch died after his being taken to heaven.

Perhaps.

Where in scripture might we find some evidence for that position?

 

[Josheb]

Enoch being translated does not negate the principle that it is appointed to all men to die once.

Explain that. Merely posting it does nothing and the question asked is whether or not the verses contradict and if not, then how not?

Neither does it negate the rapture.

Jesus said:

Jhn 3:13
“No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.“

Jesus was not refuting that Enoch, Elijah or Moses were in heaven, he was questioning Nicodemus on his ability to understand heavenly ideas as opposed to earthly ones. Specifically speaking of himself.

I do not collaborate with modern futurists who try to hijack others' ops and make everything about their modern futurism. I am going to report this post and ask the mods to watch you so that you follow the forum's rule about staying on topic. I am also asking all the other posters who enter this thread PLEASE DO NOT COOPERATE WITH THE OFF-TOPIC CONTENT OR ANY EFFORT TO DERAIL THIS DISCUSSION. (please take note @3 Resurrections)

If an answer to the specified inquiries of this op is possessed, then please post that explanation and please keep content reserved to that subject.

 

[Arial]

@3 Resurrections @LeviR

Please stick to the subject and questions of the OP and avoid vain speculations that are unrelated to it that hijack the thread into eschatology or anything else.

Thanks

 

[fastfredy0]

Re: Perhaps Enoch died after his being taken to heaven.

Perhaps.

Where in scripture might we find some evidence for that position?

No direct scriptural evidence, least wise that I know of ...

Indirect Evidence:

• All have sinned so there's a clean need on aisle 7 so to speak.
• Romans 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing ... implies in the flesh of everyone there is "no good thing" so again seems to be a need to rid everyone of the flesh
• 1 Corinthians 15:50 I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed- 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. NIV ... implies that need to change our earthly body. Could Enoch get a new body without the old body dying? Death is the end of the life of a person .. does my soul ever die and if not, does placing my soul in a new body count as "death" or "partial death of only the physical part of me"?

Conclusion: I don't know ... the possibility of Enoch dying later is a potential answer.

 

[Josheb]

Let me also posit another point from scripture relevant to Enoch not dying.

According to Romans 3, all have sinned (as @fastfredy0* noted), and according to Romans 6 the wages of sin is death (and eternal life is possible only in Christ). The first text necessarily means Enoch sinned and was, therefore a sinner. The second text necessarily means he did/will experience the wages of his sin (i.e., death). So, give that consideration when contemplating the intersection of Hebrews 9:27 and 11:5.









* @fastfredy0, I appreciate Post 15, but don't have a specific reply at this time. It is commendable that you would openly acknowledge no direct evidence and the "I don't know" because so few people post so forthcomingly or genuinely. Well done.
.

 

[fastfredy0]

It is commendable that you would openly acknowledge no direct evidence and the "I don't know"

Gee, I don't get many compliments for being stupid .... *giggle*

 

[Mr GLee]

That still does not reconcile the assertions Enoch never died but all men must die. (btw, the second death comes after the judgment that follows the earlier death)


.

Death the wage of sin. . is the appointment for all of mankind

Enoch a first born like Cain. Enoch heard the gospel and believed God not seen (walked with God ) born again .God took him. A picture or parable of the ressurection on the last day.

Genesis 5:22:24 And Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years, and begat sons and daughters: And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years: And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; (walking with God) for God took him(spirit)

A picture of the Father working in the son of man Jesus drawing up on the last day under the Sun .

All die suffering unto death (hell) not receiving the promise of a new body. By his stripes from the father bruising his heel we are healed, awaiting the new bodies on the last day under the Sun .Promised neither male nor female . . Jew nor gentile

Hebrews11:38-40 (Of whom the world was not worthy they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.
And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

The Gnostics gender dysfunction. teaching the resurrection has come no longer male nor female ,Jew nor gentile awaiting there new re-incarnated bodies self identified. . Imagination gone wild .The Cats Meow. Tampons in boys bathroom.

We are not what we will be when receive the new sexless bodies.

Satan the murderer of the whole human race not having any spiritual gospel understanding . . wipe them all out , off with heads

2 Timothy 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

 

[Josheb]

Hi everyone,

I wrote this recent spate of inquiries here and elsewhere in the Bible Questions board simply for everyone's enjoyment. Because scripture is silent on most of these matters the answers are, necessarily, going to be ones of speculation. The inquiries were intended to provoke a little thought, some consideration of scripture, some enjoyable conversation among us, and the opportunity to discuss some things in light-hearted manner (as opposed to the more serious and sometimes rancorous topics of salvation, end times, or the Trinity).

In most of them I do not think there is an answer to the op's inquiry. This op is different. I do think there is an answer, and the answer lies in the contexts of each verse cited.

As I believe I alluded to earlier, the intersection of Enoch and the final inevitable judgment is Jesus as the resurrection. Succinctly put, Jesus is the resurrection, there has never been a moment in creation when/where he was not the resurrection and he is the only way to the Father. These are all very exclusive statements made by Jesus and they cannot conflict with anything else in scripture. As the logos, any real or perceived conflict or discrepancy between Jesus and anyone else (Moses, David, Paul, John, etc.) is decided in favor of Jesus. The Son of God trumps all others' words (assuming any conflict actually exists). In order to resurrect a person must first die. In order to die a person must first live. The normal, standard method of operation in scripture is life-----> then death ----> and then resurrection (either to eternal life or eternal death) with judgment a waypoint occurring before the eternal outcome. Therefore, Enoch must have experienced that order in some way, shape, or form and the death of which Hebrews 11:5 speaks occurs in those global contexts. Because all have sinned and fall short of God's glory and because the wages of sin is death, Enoch died. Enoch was dead in transgression. Enoch's walk with God (Gen. 5) was not a sinless walk. Neither the Hebrew weenaennu or laqach denote a lack of soteriological or physical death. It is the author of Hebrews who informs the Genesis 5 taking away to be no more. If Enoch was to see God then he had to believe in Jesus and be resurrected, and according to Paul (see 1 Cor. 15:35-44) that process entails a death. The proverbial seed must be buried and dies before it is able to be transformed into something new, different and productive. But maybe I am wrong.

What I do know is God's word does not contradict itself so the answer to this op's opening inquiry is necessarily an unequivocal, "No." What we make of the other questions is intended for mutually edifying enjoyment.

From time to time I'll post other ops like the three recent ones. They can be recognized as opportunities for light-heartedness but sincere exchange by their inherently speculative nature. Wherever scripture is silent we should also either be silent or respectfully circumspect with our speculations. As far as the three current ops go, I hope they served the intended purpose and everyone enjoyed the endeavor. I appreciate everyone's participation and commend it. I hope the opportunity to have a little light-hearted speculation and fun was realized.











.

 

[CrowCross]

Is there a contradiction between these two verses?

Hebrews 9:27 BLB
And inasmuch as it is apportioned to men to die once, and after this, judgment, 28 so also Christ, having been offered once in order to bear the sins of many, will appear for a second time, apart from sin, to those awaiting Him for salvation.

Hebrews 11:5 BLB
By faith Enoch was translated not to see death, and he was not found, because God had taken him up. For before the translation, he was commended to have pleased God.


The first verse states men is apportioned to die once but the second states Enoch did not see death. And if not, then how are these two verses reconciled so as not to contradict one another? Scripture elsewhere implies resurrection (in Christ) is the means of transformation unto eternal life. Jesus, who is the resurrection and the life without whom no one can reach the Father or have eternal life, and resurrection implies a receding death (if there is no death then from what might that person be raised or resurrected and thereby transformed into immortality or eternal life?). Assuming Enoch believed in Christ, how is it he was able to be translated (transformed?) without the apportioned death and judgment of Hebrews 9:27, and then be raised from that death (ala 1 Corinthians 15:36)?

I think one mixes apples and oranges when they present the two verses in this fashion.

Does it refer to believers...in whom there is no condemnation? I don't believe they will stand before the Great White Throne. The Bema Seat is a different issue...different judgement.

Enoch was translated and didn't see death...nor will those who are raptured as mentioned in 1 Thes 4:16

There's more to say depending on the responses.