Is There a Contradiction?

[Josheb]

Does it refer to believers...in whom there is no condemnation? I don't believe they will stand before the Great White Throne. The Bema Seat is a different issue...different judgement.

Prove that position, please.


Please prove it in a manner that does not conflict with the following statements found in scripture....

Ecclesiastes 12:14
For God will bring every act to judgment, everything which is hidden, whether it is good or evil.

Every act, even the good ones, not just the evil ones.

Matthew 12:35-37
The good man brings out of his good treasure what is good; and the evil man brings out of his evil treasure what is evil. But I tell you that every careless word that people speak, they shall give an accounting for it in the day of judgment. For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.

Both the good man and the evil man will have to give an account in the day of judgment.

Acts 17:29-31
Being then the children of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and thought of man. Therefore, having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent, because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead.

The world will be judged, not just that portion that denied Jesus.

Romans 2:12-16
For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

Romans 14:10-12
For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God; for it is written, “As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.” So then each of us will give an account of himself to God.

1 Corinthians 3:11-15
For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work. If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

1 Corinthians 11:32
But when we are judged, we are disciplined by the Lord so that we will not be condemned along with the world.

2 Corinthians 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive compensation for his deeds done through the body, in accordance with what he has done, whether good or bad.

Galatians 6:7-8
Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap. For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.

There are many statements like the above in Paul's epistolary. I've kept the list brief for the sake of space. Every single one of those passages was written by a saint to the saints about the saints.

2 Timothy 4:1
I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom: preach the word....

Both the living and the dead get judged.

1 Peter 4:17
For it is time for judgment to begin with the household of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God?

The house of God is judged first!

Hebrews 12:25
See to it that you do not refuse Him who is speaking. For if those did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, much less will we escape who turn away from Him who warns us from heaven.

James 3:1
Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we will incur a stricter judgment.

1 John 4:17
By this, love is perfected with us, so that we may have confidence in the day of judgment; because as he is, so also are we in this world.

All the other epistle writers agree: the saints get judged, too.


Revelation 20:11-12
Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.

The Lamb's book of life is examined for whose names are and whose names are not written therein. Those whose names are written in the book of life..... are judged from the things written in the books, according to their deeds and that judgment is explicitly stated to occur before the great white throne.

Does it refer to believers...in whom there is no condemnation? I don't believe they will stand before the Great White Throne. The Bema Seat is a different issue...different judgement.

Please prove that position.

 

[Tambora]

One would also need to consider that many people of faith (Enoch being among them) are listed in Hebrews 11 and verse 13 says ......

Hebrews 11:13
These all died in faith, not having received the things promised, but having seen them and greeted them from afar, and having acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth.

 

[Red Baker]

Is there a contradiction between these two verses?

Hebrews 9:27 BLB
And inasmuch as it is apportioned to men to die once, and after this, judgment, 28 so also Christ, having been offered once in order to bear the sins of many, will appear for a second time, apart from sin, to those awaiting Him for salvation.

Hebrews 11:5 BLB
By faith Enoch was translated not to see death, and he was not found, because God had taken him up. For before the translation, he was commended to have pleased God.


The first verse states men is apportioned to die once but the second states Enoch did not see death.

Brother, there's no contradiction, just an exception that God has a right to make, as he did in the life of his servant Elijah.

And if not, then how are these two verses reconciled so as not to contradict one another?

It is written:

Hebrews 11:5​

“By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.”

Enoch's life of faith proved that he was a righteous person, one that posses eternal life. His translation to heaven without going through the valley of showdown of death, was not escaping death of his body per se, because that body of sin and death he escaped from by God translating him before he died, which he would have if God has not chosen to translate him.

All men escape death in the true sense of the word once they are born again, and posses eternal life, rather of not they actually do or not.

John 11:26​

“And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?”

Yes, Lord I believe this!

Assuming Enoch believed in Christ, how is it he was able to be translated (transformed?) without the apportioned death and judgment of Hebrews 9:27, and then be raised from that death (ala 1 Corinthians 15:36)?

Of course he believed in Christ.

Jude 1:14​

“And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,”

Enoch posses eternal life, as all of the saints have, whether OT or NT, and by being in Christ by election of grace from the foundation of the world ~ God views each of them as having already being put to death and raised from being dead in Christ and treats all of his elect in this manner~OT and NT....Ephesians 2:4-6.

 

[Josheb]

Brother, there's no contradiction, just an exception that God has a right to make, as he did in the life of his servant Elijah.

It is written:

Hebrews 11:5​

“By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.”

Enoch's life of faith proved that he was a righteous person, one that posses eternal life. His translation to heaven without going through the valley of showdown of death, was not escaping death of his body per se, because that body of sin and death he escaped from by God translating him before he died, which he would have if God has not chosen to translate him.

All men escape death in the true sense of the word once they are born again, and posses eternal life, rather of not they actually do or not.

John 11:26​

“And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?”

Yes, Lord I believe this!

Of course he believed in Christ.

Jude 1:14​

“And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,”

Enoch posses eternal life, as all of the saints have, whether OT or NT, and by being in Christ by election of grace from the foundation of the world ~ God views each of them as having already being put to death and raised from being dead in Christ and treats all of his elect in this manner~OT and NT....Ephesians 2:4-6.

Have you read through the thread?

 

[Red Baker]

Have you read through the thread?

Glanced through them.

 

[Josheb]

Glanced through them.

It's a good post, but every single point made in Post 23 was previously addressed somewhere in the thread and that post does not address some of the content others broached. However, the basic question was answered and answered correctly. So far (as far as I can tell from the posts, with the possible exception of one contributor) everyone agrees: scripture never contradicts itself and the two verses cited in the op do not do so, either. That being said, Post 23 does not reconcile the matter; it simply asserts one verse over others.

Hebrews 11:5
By faith Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death, and he was not found, because God had taken him. Now before he was taken he was commended as having pleased God.

Hebrews 11:13
These all died in faith, not having received the things promised, but having seen them and greeted them from afar, and having acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth.

The author of Hebrews must have meant, "all but Enoch died in faith" because Enoch did not die. Post 23 brings up some commendable scriptural content, but it does not actually reconcile the stated conflict between all men having to die once and face judgment and Enoch not dying. Although I am sure we could all agree Enoch is an exception to the rule as far as the sop of human existence goes, that exception does not reconcile with the appointed death and judgment. Posters could say "Enoch never died!" as often as they like but that does not change the equally scriptural fact ALL men die and face judgement, or the fact ALL have sinned and death is the wage of sin.


If it wasn't already read, then check Post 19 to better understand the purpose of the op.
.

 

[CrowCross]

Prove that position, please.


Please prove it in a manner that does not conflict with the following statements found in scripture....

Ecclesiastes 12:14
For God will bring every act to judgment, everything which is hidden, whether it is good or evil.

Every act, even the good ones, not just the evil ones.

Matthew 12:35-37
The good man brings out of his good treasure what is good; and the evil man brings out of his evil treasure what is evil. But I tell you that every careless word that people speak, they shall give an accounting for it in the day of judgment. For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.

Both the good man and the evil man will have to give an account in the day of judgment.

Acts 17:29-31
Being then the children of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and thought of man. Therefore, having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent, because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead.

The world will be judged, not just that portion that denied Jesus.

Romans 2:12-16
For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

Romans 14:10-12
For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God; for it is written, “As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.” So then each of us will give an account of himself to God.

1 Corinthians 3:11-15
For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work. If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

1 Corinthians 11:32
But when we are judged, we are disciplined by the Lord so that we will not be condemned along with the world.

2 Corinthians 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive compensation for his deeds done through the body, in accordance with what he has done, whether good or bad.

Galatians 6:7-8
Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap. For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.

There are many statements like the above in Paul's epistolary. I've kept the list brief for the sake of space. Every single one of those passages was written by a saint to the saints about the saints.

2 Timothy 4:1
I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom: preach the word....

Both the living and the dead get judged.

1 Peter 4:17
For it is time for judgment to begin with the household of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God?

The house of God is judged first!

Hebrews 12:25
See to it that you do not refuse Him who is speaking. For if those did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, much less will we escape who turn away from Him who warns us from heaven.

James 3:1
Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we will incur a stricter judgment.

1 John 4:17
By this, love is perfected with us, so that we may have confidence in the day of judgment; because as he is, so also are we in this world.

All the other epistle writers agree: the saints get judged, too.


Revelation 20:11-12
Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.

The Lamb's book of life is examined for whose names are and whose names are not written therein. Those whose names are written in the book of life..... are judged from the things written in the books, according to their deeds and that judgment is explicitly stated to occur before the great white throne.

Please prove that position.

Have not all of your sins been forgiven? Or just some of them?

Psalms 103:12 as far as the east is from the west, so far does he remove our transgressions from us.

Heb 8:12 For I will forgive their iniquities and will remember their sins no more.”

Isaiah 14:22 I have blotted out your transgressions like a cloud, and your sins like a mist. Return to Me, for I have redeemed you.

Colossians 2:13-14 When you were dead in your trespasses and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our trespasses, / having canceled the debt ascribed to us in the decrees that stood against us. He took it away, nailing it to the cross!

There's more but I trust you get the point.

Question, how can you stand before the White Throne if your sins are no more? Do you still have condemnation in you?

On the other hand there is the Bema Seat ...

1 Cor 3:10By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one must be careful how he builds. 11For no one can lay a foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ.

12If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, 13his workmanship will be evident, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will prove the quality of each man’s work. 14If what he has built survives, he will receive a reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss. He himself will be saved, but only as if through the flames.

But this judgement is for rewards....not eternal judgement.

 

[Josheb]

I don't believe they will stand before the Great White Throne. The Bema Seat is a different issue...different judgement.

Prove that position, please.

Have not all of your sins been forgiven? Or just some of them?

Psalms 103:12 as far as the east is from the west, so far does he remove our transgressions from us.

Heb 8:12 For I will forgive their iniquities and will remember their sins no more.”

Isaiah 14:22 I have blotted out your transgressions like a cloud, and your sins like a mist. Return to Me, for I have redeemed you.

Colossians 2:13-14 When you were dead in your trespasses and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our trespasses, / having canceled the debt ascribed to us in the decrees that stood against us. He took it away, nailing it to the cross!

There's more but I trust you get the point.

Question, how can you stand before the White Throne if your sins are no more? Do you still have condemnation in you?

On the other hand there is the Bema Seat ...

1 Cor 3:10By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one must be careful how he builds. 11For no one can lay a foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ.

12If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, 13his workmanship will be evident, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will prove the quality of each man’s work. 14If what he has built survives, he will receive a reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss. He himself will be saved, but only as if through the flames.

But this judgement is for rewards....not eternal judgement.

Post 27 does not answer the question asked. It was claimed Christians will not stand before the Great White Throne BUT the response to my request for proof states, "But this judgment is for rewards, not for eternal judgment." You were not asked to discriminate between differing judgments. You were asked to prove we don't stand before God in judgment. I posted piles of verses demonstrating a differential judgement. There's no dispute there. You stated we don't stand before the Great White Throne but the only verse in the entire Bible that mentions the great white throne explicitly states that judgment entails an examination of whose name is written in the Lamb's book of life. Not any book of death, but the book of life. There are two books used in that judgment and one of them is the book of life.



Revelation 3:5
He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

How does that happen without God judging whether or not the saint overcame?

Revelation 13:8
All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.

Even those whose names are NOT written in the book of life will worship Christ. Every knee will bow and confess him as Lord. We, the dead in Christ, will worship him as both Lord AND Savior, whereas those found not in Christ will not be able to do the latter.

Revelation 21:24-27
The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it. In the daytime (for there will be no night there) its gates will never be closed; and they will bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it; and nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Following the judgment at the great white throne the new city of peace descends to earth and only those whose names are written in the book of life get to enter.

We ALL face judgment. Those in Christ are judged but not condemned (Rom. 8:1) and because their names are written in the Lamb's book of life and will not be removed thereof, their reward is eternal life. Those not in Christ also face judgment. The judgment has already been rendered (according to John 3:18) but they will stand before God for sentencing. As has already been posted, everyone will have to give an account of every vain word and deed. It will not stop those in Christ from receiving their inheritance, but we will all stand before God accordingly, nonetheless. Different purposes and different outcomes does not mean two different episodes.






More importantly...... this digression risks derailing the thread so I would like you to focus on the matter of Enoch and the multiple places where scripture reports he was dead but did not die. Can you do that? Thank you

 

[CrowCross]

Post 27 does not answer the question asked. It was claimed Christians will not stand before the Great White Throne BUT the response to my request for proof states, "But this judgment is for rewards, not for eternal judgment." You were not asked to discriminate between differing judgments. You were asked to prove we don't stand before God in judgment. I posted piles of verses demonstrating a differential judgement. There's no dispute there. You stated we don't stand before the Great White Throne but the only verse in the entire Bible that mentions the great white throne explicitly states that judgment entails an examination of whose name is written in the Lamb's book of life. Not any book of death, but the book of life. There are two books used in that judgment and one of them is the book of life.

The verses were posted..the reason presented...the biblical reasons prsented.

You disagree...so be it. Have a nice day standing before the White Throne.

 

[Josheb]

..

 

[Mr GLee]

I think one mixes apples and oranges when they present the two verses in this fashion.

Does it refer to believers...in whom there is no condemnation? I don't believe they will stand before the Great White Throne. The Bema Seat is a different issue...different judgement.

Enoch was translated and didn't see death...nor will those who are raptured as mentioned in 1 Thes 4:16

There's more to say depending on the responses.

When you say did not see death. Does that mean they retain the same body ? Reincarnation?

There is only one judgment .all have sinned and continue to fall short of the glory of the Faithfull Creator all the days of their lives

The second death the death of death (letter of the law) thou shalt not or you are dead . The letter will not rise up and condemn and corrupt a whole creation

 

[MattTheCricketBat]

By the power of faith of Christ that worked in Enoch he did not see death

The same spirit of faith that works in all of the sons of God Enioch being powerless had no faith of his wown that could lease Christ wh o worked in Enoch

2 Corinthians 4:13 We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak

Faith= power

No faith = no power

Yeah this is correct. We're thinking too literally about this, it's about faith.

 

[Mr GLee]

Yeah this is correct. We're thinking too literally about this, it's about faith.

Yes The law of faith.(power)

The revealing of mysteries of Christ hid in parables .Hid from the beginning of time.

The "let there be". . Literal word of the unseen Faithful, powerful Creator and "it became substance.. rudiments".

In that way the temporal seen must be mixed with the unseen eternal "let here be" Altogether as one work. Or there can be no gospel spiritual unseen understanding and remains a mystery of faith

.Faith is a work. . Him in us .Yoked with him daily burdens can be made lighter. That is. if we hear his voice and not harden our hearts.

An earthly example of faith trust .

My trust worthily wife sends out her apostle husband Mr GLee on a adventure to the Supermarket. With a writen list not to add or subtract from .Upon completing the mission labor of love I received the apostles reward two home made peanut butter cookies and a cold glass of milk .

Faith the trusting power working between two. Not as I will Father you have the shopping list and the know how of the cookies and milk reward

 

[CrowCross]

When you say did not see death. Does that mean they retain the same body ? Reincarnation?

The bible doesn't teach reincarnation....it teaches resurrection.
Those taken in the rapture will not be resurrected. Like Enoch they will keep their bodies....their bodies will become like the resurrected body of Christ Jesus. Glorified. I believed returned to the pre-fall nature.

There is only one judgment .all have sinned and continue to fall short of the glory of the Faithfull Creator all the days of their lives

There are TWO judgements. The Great White Throne and the Bema Seat Judgement. Which will you be at?

I hope you will follow the links above and learn the difference.

The second death the death of death (letter of the law) thou shalt not or you are dead . The letter will not rise up and condemn and corrupt a whole creation

 

[Mr GLee]

The bible doesn't teach reincarnation....it teaches resurrection.
Those taken in the rapture will not be resurrected. Like Enoch they will keep their bodies....their bodies will become like the resurrected body of Christ Jesus. Glorified. I believed returned to the pre-fall nature.


There are TWO judgements. The Great White Throne and the Bema Seat Judgement. Which will you be at?

I hope you will follow the links above and learn the difference.

Hi Thanks for the reply..

I would offer

Ok, Born again Christians as sons of God. They are not be what they will be when they receive the incorruptible, all die not receiving .to include Enoch .The born again example used in parables

It was then when he was lifted in a parable as a example that born again men could know they are heard on high and moved by the Father that worked in them . Emphasizing a man must be born again . . second birth

.A doctrine spoken of with Nicodemus one that did search for signs to wonder, wonder after as if it was true prohecy (oral traditons of dying mankind )

1 John 3:1Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Sons of God await new bodies that are neither male nor female, Jew nor gentile as the bride married to Christ the husband .Two literally become one new creation.

Enoch's body of death will not be reincarnated .

You could say like the Pope Formosa the Cadaver trial (AD 896). Dug up bones dressed up corruption in priestly garment and pronounced judgment. Then passed around the dead bones to be venerated .faithless fools .Paganism . "Out of sight out of mind "

In that way believers are not that which they will be and its just a matter of reincarnation.

It would seem in that way to give some understanding to Gnosticism, secret prophecy, false oral traditons of dying mankind .

Satan "I will be like God" the identity thief. For instance . Just use your imagination and be what ever you desire. Male , female. sexless , fish, bird or human. . the sky the limit. The dark spirit of racism (sin) What you see is not what you get. What you see already judged as evil or dark.

The world treating racism misogamy as if it was not sin punishable by death. The source of the fall. False pride .looking to the things seen the temporal and not the the unseen eternal . the false prophecy "Neither shall you touch" creating false pride)

The spirit of the air working today with gender confusion or what the word woman means (not taught in Collège today )

Just gender confusion "101" Called; Remember how you used to play pretend .. Close your eyes count to ten .. . no Peek a Boo

Therefore over powering the faith (understanding ) of Christ that works in believers with the temporal dying things of men seen

2 Timothy 2:17-19King James Version And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity

No one has received their new incorruptible body all will in the twinkling of a eye on the last day under the Sun.

 

[Eleanor]

Is there a contradiction between these two verses?
Hebrews 9:27 BLB
And inasmuch as it is apportioned to men to die once, and after this, judgment, 28 so also Christ, having been offered once in order to bear the sins of many, will appear for a second time, apart from sin, to those awaiting Him for salvation.
Hebrews 11:5 BLB
By faith Enoch was translated not to see death, and he was not found, because God had taken him up. For before the translation, he was commended to have pleased God.
The first verse states men is apportioned to die once but the second states Enoch did not see death. And if not, then how are these two verses reconciled so as not to contradict one another? Scripture elsewhere implies resurrection (in Christ) is the means of transformation unto eternal life. Jesus, who is the resurrection and the life without whom no one can reach the Father or have eternal life, and resurrection implies a receding death (if there is no death then from what might that person be raised or resurrected and thereby transformed into immortality or eternal life?). Assuming Enoch believed in Christ, how is it he was able to be translated (transformed?) without the apportioned death and judgment of Hebrews 9:27, and then be raised from that death (ala 1 Corinthians 15:36)?

Those who are alive when Jesus returns will likewise not see death.

 

[Josheb]

Those who are alive when Jesus returns will likewise not see death.

Do you think your body being changed from a mortal and corruptible body of previously sinful of flesh into an incorruptible and immortal spiritual body is a form of death?

1 Corinthians 15:36-38
That which you sow does not come to life unless it dies; and that which you sow, you do not sow the body which is to be, but a bare grain, perhaps of wheat or of something else. But God gives it a body just as He wished, and to each of the seeds a body of its own.

1 Thessalonians 4:17
After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

Those who are alive when he returns will be alive in this corruptible, mortal body of flesh, and flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable (1 Cor. 15:50). Do you think your body being changed from a mortal and corruptible body of previously sinful of flesh into an incorruptible and immortal spiritual body is a form of death?


Do you think it is wise to base sound doctrine on the exceptions to the rule? Is it the few exceptions that define the majority texts, or the majority that determines the minority? Do you think it is wise to base sound doctrine on doctrinal interpretations of God's word? Or is it wisest to base sound doctrine on whole scripture read as written and considered in its entirety?

 

[Mr GLee]

Those who are alive when Jesus returns will likewise not see death.

Remember we have passed from death to new born again life

1 John 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

Jesus the Son of man finished the 3 day and night promised demonstration.

Some did know Christ the Holy Spirit who worked in the Son of man Jesus. That window of opportunity closed when he disappeared and died.

2 Corinthians 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

In that way it seems Christ the one good teaching master did return to rign from heaven .the time of the 1st century reformation came the vail was rent

God in 1 Samuel 8 had given over the athiest Jews to do that which they should of never desired to do .In their jealousy of the surrounding pagan nations (out of sight out of mind fools) The abomination of desolation Kings in Israel .They refused to worship under a invisible God.

 

[Mr GLee]

Do you think your body being changed from a mortal and corruptible body of previously sinful of flesh into an incorruptible and immortal spiritual body is a form of death?

New bodies . Not dying mankind's corrupted flesh and blood. . it could never enter in the new heavens and earth.

What we are is far from what we will be.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Those who are alive when Jesus returns will likewise not see death.

Not according to the Hebrews 9:27 where it is appointed unto men ONCE to die. Even when Jesus returns in our future. You are trusting in something that was never promised to you.