Is Double Predestination Biblical?

[ElectedbyHim]

Some Reform people believe so.

I posed the following question to ChatGPT:
According to reform theology, does believing in salvation by faith + works nullify salvation?

The answer:
In Reformed theology, yes—believing in salvation by faith plus works is considered to nullify true salvation, because it undermines the doctrine of justification by faith alone (sola fide), which is a central tenet of Reformed belief.

Here's how it breaks down:​

• Salvation by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone is a core principle of Reformed theology.
• Reformed theology teaches that justification (being declared righteous before God) is by faith alone, not by works or any human effort (cf. Ephesians 2:8–9, Romans 3:28).
• Good works are the evidence of genuine faith, not the basis for salvation.

What if someone believes in faith + works?
According to Reformed theology:

• If someone truly believes that their works contribute to their justification before God, that belief contradicts the gospel.
• The Apostle Paul heavily criticizes this idea in Galatians (e.g., Galatians 5:4 – "You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.")
• Therefore, such a belief is often taken to mean that the person does not truly understand or possess saving faith, since they are trusting in something other than Christ alone.

Galatians 5:2 Notice, it is I, Paul, who tells you that if you receive circumcision [as a supposed requirement of salvation], Christ will be of no benefit to you [for you will lack the faith in Christ that is necessary for salvation]. Believing in salvation other than by Christ alone is a demonstration of lack of saving faith?

Ouch.

 

[fastfredy0]

Ouch.

Yeah. I question this position as it doesn't seem right from my emotional stand point. On the other hand, I've thought it vital enough to mention to my son and wife to ensure they were "on board" so to speak and they are. (Aside: the other son is always on board theologically where I define "on board" as agreeing with me *giggle*)

 

[Whatever]

I'm struggling with this topic. Double predestination does concern hell. My parents and siblings weren't Christians. That bothers me. Can't you understand?

I understand. I was at the bedside when both my Mom and Dad died. I doubt either of them were saved. I was bothered by the idea of them spending eternity suffering, but I still can't deny what the Bible seems to clearly say. We just have to trust the Lord that He knows what He is doing.

 

[Whatever]

I don't call that passive.

I don't think God is ever passive. He upholds everything and keeps every atom/molecule moving.
By active they mean that God actually actively does something to the elect - regenerate them.
By passive they mean that God does not have to actively make them sinners. They are born sinners along with the elect.

I think this would be the infralapsarian view. God looks at the whole mass (billions) of fallen people and chooses who He wants to save.

If you have a bowl of cherries and pick out 3 or 4 to eat, I suppose you can say you actively didn't choose the others. But most people wouldn't put it that way.

 

[ElectedbyHim]

I don't think God is ever passive. He upholds everything and keeps every atom/molecule moving.
By active they mean that God actually actively does something to the elect - regenerate them.
By passive they mean that God does not have to actively make them sinners. They are born sinners along with the elect.

I think this would be the infralapsarian view. God looks at the whole mass (billions) of fallen people and chooses who He wants to save.

If you have a bowl of cherries and pick out 3 or 4 to eat, I suppose you can say you actively didn't choose the others. But most people wouldn't put it that way.

@Whatever, glad to see you here friend.

 

[Rescued One]

Some Reform people believe so.

I posed the following question to ChatGPT:
According to reform theology, does believing in salvation by faith + works nullify salvation?

The answer:
In Reformed theology, yes—believing in salvation by faith plus works is considered to nullify true salvation, because it undermines the doctrine of justification by faith alone (sola fide), which is a central tenet of Reformed belief.

Here's how it breaks down:​

• Salvation by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone is a core principle of Reformed theology.
• Reformed theology teaches that justification (being declared righteous before God) is by faith alone, not by works or any human effort (cf. Ephesians 2:8–9, Romans 3:28).
• Good works are the evidence of genuine faith, not the basis for salvation.

What if someone believes in faith + works?
According to Reformed theology:

• If someone truly believes that their works contribute to their justification before God, that belief contradicts the gospel.
• The Apostle Paul heavily criticizes this idea in Galatians (e.g., Galatians 5:4 – "You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.")
• Therefore, such a belief is often taken to mean that the person does not truly understand or possess saving faith, since they are trusting in something other than Christ alone.

Galatians 5:2 Notice, it is I, Paul, who tells you that if you receive circumcision [as a supposed requirement of salvation], Christ will be of no benefit to you [for you will lack the faith in Christ that is necessary for salvation]. Believing in salvation other than by Christ alone is a demonstration of lack of saving faith?

I believe that I am saved by faith in Christ that was a gift of God. I didn't and can't earn faith.

 

[Rescued One]

More opinions

Is Salvation Nullified by the Belief of any Work is needed for Salvation?

Source: Galatians 1:6-7; Galatians 5:2-6; Galatians 3:10; James 2:10 …

Question: What is the application of these verses if one believes the source of faith is the individual rather than God. (is the verse applicable?)

R.C. Sproul: “If you trust upon anything else than Jesus Christ in addition to Jesus Christ you lose Christ, all or nothing at all. Christ does not become of less effect; he becomes of no effect if you try to add something to Him

Sproul goes on to say that he thought Arminians are saved, but barely by which he meant “as long as they don’t take their theology to its logic conclusion. They would not be Christians if they put their trust in their own righteousness”. When Sproul initially came to faith he thought it was his choice; he didn’t know of scripture that described the process.

Gill - his view of works for salvation rendered Christ unprofitable, made his death to be in vain, his sacrifice of no effect, and his righteousness useless: besides, Christ is a whole Savior, or none at all; to join anything with him and his righteousness, in the business of justification and salvation, is interpreted by him as a contempt and neglect of him, as laying him aside, and to such persons he is of no profit; and if he is not, what they have, and whatsoever they do, will be of no advantage; wealth and riches, yea, the whole world could it be gained, their works and righteousness, whatever show they make before men, God has declared shall not profit them; and trusting to these renders Christ unprofitable to them. Isaiah 55:11 So will My word be which goes out of My mouth; It will not return to Me void (useless, without result), Without accomplishing what I desire, And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it.

All of this saving work is the gift of God’s sovereign grace. Consequently, Paul concludes, I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly. In effect he was saying to Peter, “By withdrawing from fellowship with your Gentile brothers you take your stand with the Judaizers and against Christ. You nullify the grace of God by denying the need for Christ’s death, just as you did when you rebuked the Lord for declaring it was necessary for Him to suffer, be killed, and raised on the third day (see Matthew 16:21-22).

The two pillars of the gospel are the grace of God and the death of Christ, and those are the two pillars that, by its very nature, legalism destroys. The person who insists that he can earn salvation by his own efforts undermines the very foundation of Christianity and nullifies the precious death of Christ on his behalf (Galatians 2:21). John MacArthur – N.T. Commentary

Matthew-Henry: Christ will not be the Savior of any who will not own and rely upon him as their only Savior. Let us take heed to the warnings and persuasions of the apostle to steadfastness in the doctrine and liberty of the gospel. All true Christians, being taught by the Holy Spirit, wait for eternal life, the reward of righteousness, and the object of their hope, as the gift of God by faith in Christ; and not for the sake of their own works.

Tom Constable: The Galatians would be obligating themselves to obey the whole Mosaic Code if they allowed the false teachers to circumcise them. Their confidence in circumcision would reveal confidence in their own ability to earn salvation by obeying the Law. This legal approach to salvation would separate them from Christ since what He did was provide salvation as a gift. They would fall away from the grace method of salvation if they chose the law method.

Grace and legal righteousness cannot co-exist (Romans 4:4, Romans 5:11). Christ, by circumcision (Luke 2:21), undertook to obey all the law, and fulfil all righteousness for us: any, therefore, that now seeks to fulfil the law for himself in any degree for justifying righteousness, severs himself from the grace which flows from Christ's fulfilment of it, and becomes "a debtor to do the whole law" (Galatians 5:3). The decree of the Jerusalem council had said nothing so strong as this; it had merely decided that Gentile Christians were not bound to legal observances. But the Galatians, while not pretending to be so bound, imagined there was an efficacy in them to merit a higher degree of perfection (Galatians 3:3). … John 6:29 Jesus answered, “This is the work of God: that you believe [adhere to, trust in, rely on, and have faith] in the One whom He has sent.”

One who preaches righteousness through the law is compelled to deny the sufficiency and necessity of Christ's redemptive work. And by definition, to deny the sufficiency and necessity of Christ makes one a non-Christian. Vincent Cheung – Commentary on Galatians. Galatians 2:21 I do not ignore or nullify the [gracious gift of the] grace of God [His amazing, unmerited favor], for if righteousness comes through [observing] the Law, then Christ died needlessly. [His suffering and death would have had no purpose whatsoever.]”

A third consequence of seeking to be justified by circumcision or any other form of the law, is that it causes a person to become severed from Christ and thereby become fallen from grace. Severed is from katarge image (Image) , which, when followed by the preposition, means to be separated or loosed from (cf. Romans 7:2, 6). Fallen is from ehpipt image (Image), which means to lose one’s grasp on something. Simply stated, a person cannot live by both law and grace. To attempt to be justified by law is to reject the way of grace.

For a believer to start living again under the law to merit salvation is, in fact, to reject salvation by grace. John MacArthur – New Testament Commentary

Galatians 5:4 is especially clear about this incompatibility: "You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace."

https://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/qna/arminians.html (are Arminians saved)

https://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/neo_gnostic.html (taking the idea that Arminians are not saved too far) It is Christ who saves through faith, not our soteriological knowledge. This, to my mind, is the most utterly insidious forms of "works-righteousness" that I have ever encountered. By cleverly demanding that for one to truly be saved they must achieve a solid understanding of Calvinistic soteriology is to "make the cross of Christ of none effect".

To further exacerbate their dissimulation, they dare to go even further. They dogmatically and shockingly assert that any professing Calvinist that does not concur with their Calvinistic neo-gnostic pretensions and believes that Arminians can be saved has "spoke peace to Arminians" thereby abrogating their own salvation. As one gleans their writings on this matter, one amazingly discovers that according to this chimerical premise, the most eminent saints in church history are apparently "lost"! A. A. Hodge, Spurgeon, D. Martyn-Lloyd Jones, Gordon Clark, Van Till ad infinitum, ad nauseum, are consigned to God's wrath by the unmitigated temerity of these neo-gnostics.

Faith must rise to trust, and trust that consists in entrustment to him. In faith there is the engagement of person to person in the inner movement of the whole man to receive and rest upon Christ alone for salvation. It means the abandonment of confidence in our own or any human resources in a totality act of self-commitment to Christ.

Re: “are Catholics who adhere to official Roman Catholic beliefs and practices saved?” The answer to this question is “no.” Why? Because the Roman Catholic Church teaches that one must have good works and observe the rituals of Roman Catholicism in order to be saved.

Question: “Work is defined as an activity involving mental or physical effort done in order to achieve a purpose or result. John 6:29 Jesus answered, “This is the work of God: that you believe [adhere to, trust in, rely on, and have faith] in the One whom He has sent.” Thus, faith is defined as a work of God. If one believes the cause of “saving faith” is oneself and not God, does this nullify that person’s supposed “saving faith”… R.C. Sproul said “maybe”. John 1:12 But to as many as did receive and welcome Him, He gave the authority (power, privilege, right) to become the children of God, that is, to those who believe in (adhere to, trust in, and rely on) His name— 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of GOD.

I do not believe that works save or help save a person. Nor do I believe that those who are saved love disobedience to God.

 

[Rescued One]

Some Reform people believe so.

I posed the following question to ChatGPT:
According to reform theology, does believing in salvation by faith + works nullify salvation?

The answer:
In Reformed theology, yes—believing in salvation by faith plus works is considered to nullify true salvation, because it undermines the doctrine of justification by faith alone (sola fide), which is a central tenet of Reformed belief.

Here's how it breaks down:​

• Salvation by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone is a core principle of Reformed theology.
• Reformed theology teaches that justification (being declared righteous before God) is by faith alone, not by works or any human effort (cf. Ephesians 2:8–9, Romans 3:28).
• Good works are the evidence of genuine faith, not the basis for salvation.

What if someone believes in faith + works?
According to Reformed theology:

• If someone truly believes that their works contribute to their justification before God, that belief contradicts the gospel.
• The Apostle Paul heavily criticizes this idea in Galatians (e.g., Galatians 5:4 – "You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.")
• Therefore, such a belief is often taken to mean that the person does not truly understand or possess saving faith, since they are trusting in something other than Christ alone.

Galatians 5:2 Notice, it is I, Paul, who tells you that if you receive circumcision [as a supposed requirement of salvation], Christ will be of no benefit to you [for you will lack the faith in Christ that is necessary for salvation]. Believing in salvation other than by Christ alone is a demonstration of lack of saving faith?

I 100% believe this!

 

[ReverendRV]

I do not believe that wotks save or help save a person. Nor do I believe that those who are saved love disobedience to God.

Ask him if Double Predestination is part of Supralapsarianism or not...

 

[Rescued One]

Ask him if Double Predestination is part of Supralapsarianism or not...

Were my relatives condemned before birth?

 

[ReverendRV]

Were my relatives condemned before birth?

Ask him...

 

[Rescued One]

I spent 12 years in a cult and 2or 3 more before regeneration. Did Christians think I was not chosen?

 

[Rescued One]

Ask him...

I think he'll show up. What's your answer?

 

[Rescued One]

 

[ReverendRV]

I spent 12 years in a cult and 2or 3 more before regeneration. Did Christians think I was not chosen?

Without the Testimony you've given, Reformed Christians have no idea if you, or any, are Unconditionally Elect. Now, we know you were Chosen from before the Foundation of the World. We overcome by the Blood of the Lamb and by the Power of our Testimony. Saint James said to show him our Works, and he will know you are Saved/Chosen. Saint John said we can know we're Saved. - You have always been Unconditionally Elect; Cult or not. We are Chosen before we have done anything Bad to not deserve Election, like belonging to a Cult; or before we did anything Good to deserve Election, like Believing the Gospel...

Sorry for wanting to direct your questioning to others...

 

[Rescued One]

Without your Testimony now, Reformed Christians have no idea if you WERE Unconditionally Elect. Now, we know that you were Chosen from before the Foundation of the World. We overcome by the Blood of the Lamb and by the Power of our Testimony. Saint James said to show him our Works, and he will know you are Saved/Chosen. Saint John said we can know we're Saved. - You have always been Unconditionally Elect; Cult or not. We are Chosen before we have done anything Bad to not deserve Election; like belonging to a Cult; or before we did anything Good to deserve Election, like Believing the Gospel...

Sorry for wanting to direct your questioning to others...

You're making sense, but I'm depressed. It's not that I think I'm unworthy; it's very depressing to not have relatives who are with me. Solitary confinement.

 

[ReverendRV]

You're making sense, but I'm depressed. It's not that I think I'm unworthy; it's very depressing to not have relatives who are with me. Solitary confinement.

God bless you Sister. No matter what we say, Trust God to Comfort you. Jesus sympathizes with you...

Luke 13:34-35 (ASV) O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, that killeth the prophets, and stoneth them that are sent unto her! how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her own brood under her wings, and ye would not!


No matter what we say about God Predestining people to Hell, that's his Verse. He wanted those who wouldn't come to him. He Kept the Law of God by Loving his Neighbor. Please remember, although God Predestines; you can Trust him. Remember; it's our fault when we go to Hell...

 

[Rescued One]

God bless you Sister. No matter what we say, Trust God to Comfort you. Jesus sympathizes with you...

Luke 13:34-35 (ASV) O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, that killeth the prophets, and stoneth them that are sent unto her! how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her own brood under her wings, and ye would not!


No matter what we say about God Predestining people to Hell, Jesus said that. He wanted those who wouldn't come to him. He Kept the Law of God by Loving his Neighbor. Please remember, although God Predestines; you can Trust him. Remember; it's our fault when we go to Hell...

Thank you. I've tried to deal with this for years, but talking about it really hurts. So I'm going to take a break.

 

[fastfredy0]

By passive they mean that God does not have to actively make them sinners. They are born sinners along with the elect.

... and who/what caused them to be born sinners? Did they chose to have a sin nature (free will) or did some higher power predestine it. Just because God appears to be passive doesn't mean He didn't get the ball rolling. I drop a ball off a tower and become passive doesn't mean I wasn't active in predetermining what the ball will do.

I would also argue nothing exists passively, that God actively causes everything to exist moment to next moment:

• Col. 1:17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
• Job 34:14-15 If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath; 15 All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust.

... so your ability to exist and commit the next sin is actively supported by God continuing to use His power so that you do exist and every part of you exist. If God be passive he would "gather unto himself his spirit and his breath; All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust."

 

[fastfredy0]

Ask him if Double Predestination is part of Supralapsarianism or not...

Double predestination teaches that God proactively elects some to heaven and proactively elects some to hell—it is a balanced predestination in that God is as equally active in choosing people for hell as He is in choosing people for heaven.

God did actively create people He predetermined would go to hell. After those people predestined for hell are created God is passive as He need not do more as far as their final destiny is concerned. God remains active (Col. 1:17, Job 4:14-15) in that He ensures people destined for hell continue to live till His set time for their death and their penalty is determined by their activities on earth.