Is Double Predestination Biblical?

[ReverendRV]

They've become an endangered species. I think one was seen scuttling through the woods recently, grubbing for roots, but corroboration is lacking.

I remember talking Travelah into taking Provisionists on; he did it for a week or two, then stopped. I get the feeling that Arminians don't care, because Provisionists fight Calvinists and leave Arminians alone...

 

[David1701]

I remember talking Travelah into taking Provisionists on; he did it for a week or two, then stopped. I get the feeling that Arminians don't care, because Provisionists fight Calvinists and leave Arminians alone...

He also might have become exasperated with the Provisionists, who refuse to acknowledge the many Scriptures that defeat their false teaching. In any case, Arminianism is closer to Provisionism than it is to "Calvinism".

Travelah was also not noted for his patience...

 

[Whatever]

he also believed Jews were saved by law and would be again in the future. So there are those people out there

The believe that a temple will be built in Jerusalem and they will go back to animal sacrifices and the Aaronic priesthood.
Some articles I just found.
This was in September 1922
From Texas to Israel: Red heifers needed for Temple arrive
A Christian farmer in Texas raised the prized heifers which are essential for priests to serve in the Temple.

01-28-2025 Christian Broadcasting Network
'The First Time After 2000 Years': Israel's Biblical Red Heifers Attract World Attention
SHILOH, Israel – In September 2022, the arrival of five red heifers in Israel caught the world's attention. Now, more than two years later, those cows are being cared for in ancient Shiloh and continue to attract international visitors.
Moriah Shapira is the manager of the visitor center at ancient Shiloh. She told us why the red heifers are so important.
"Here in Shiloh for the first time after 2000 years, we have real kosher red heifers, which is really exciting," she explained.
Jewish tradition maintains that the red heifer ashes are needed to rebuild the Third Temple. Some Christians believe a Third Temple would pave the way for the end times.

[MOD WARNING: Post content not relevant to thread. Please do not divert the conversation to unrelated matters (see rule 4.3).]
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[Whatever]

Christians (the elect) are caused by God to believe (trust) in Him?

NKJ
Psalm 110:3 Your people shall be volunteers In the day of Your power; In the beauties of holiness, from the womb of the morning, You have the dew of Your youth.

ESV
Psa 110:3 Your people will offer themselves freely on the day of your power, in holy garments; from the womb of the morning, the dew of your youth will be yours.

Philippians 2:13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

Both work and works are the same word energeō to be active, efficient: - do, (be) effectual

 

[David1701]

Have you visited “Berean Apologetics Ministries”?
I find BAM to be the antithesis of CCC (It is where I go to take a beating when I am feeling a shortage of hate for “Calvinism” and need to rattle some cages.)

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[MOD EDIT: Tried to add a link to the Berean Apologetics Ministry discussion board but it would not work. I am guessing that it doesn't like the *.forum domain name.]​

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[Edit: I had deliberately left out a link since many Forums frown on linking to other forums.]​

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Shortly after it started, I visited as a guest. I was banned after two posts.

Civic got me reinstated, and I later became a member; but, the lack of objectivity on that forum meant that I didn't stay for long.

 

[Rescued One]

I remember talking Travelah into taking Provisionists on; he did it for a week or two, then stopped. I get the feeling that Arminians don't care, because Provisionists fight Calvinists and leave Arminians alone...

"Prevenient Grace: Arminianism teaches that prevenient grace is necessary to enable the human will to choose salvation, effectively countering the effects of total depravity. Provisionism, however, downplays or outright rejects the need for prevenient grace, arguing that the gospel itself, when empowered by the Holy Spirit, is sufficient to elicit a response of faith."

Look up: Provisionism vs. Arminianism.

 

[John Bauer]

"Prevenient Grace: Arminianism teaches that prevenient grace is necessary to enable the human will to choose salvation, effectively countering the effects of total depravity. Provisionism, however, downplays or outright rejects the need for prevenient grace, arguing that the gospel itself, when empowered by the Holy Spirit, is sufficient to elicit a response of faith."

Look up: Provisionism vs. Arminianism.

That is why I feel the urge to take every instance of "Provisionism" and change it to "Pelagianism"—because it IS Pelagianism, just under a new name.

 

[makesends]

I honestly do not know a single person who thinks they are the sole cause of faith in Christ. Everyone I know can give a testimony of many things that led them to faith

I have had more than one tell me that it depends entirely on their choice, and cannot happen any other way. What would you call that?

I even had one tell me that it 100% depends on them choosing Christ.

 

[Rescued One]

I have had more than one tell me that it depends entirely on their choice, and cannot happen any other way. What would you call that?

I even had one tell me that it 100% depends on them choosing Christ.

Yes, some people insist that we have to receive Christ as if we can decide for or against that. If God gives me faith, I have faith.

 

[David1701]

I have had more than one tell me that it depends entirely on their choice, and cannot happen any other way. What would you call that?

I even had one tell me that it 100% depends on them choosing Christ.

That's called "will-worship".

Here's a parody of Amazing Grace (I don't know who wrote it), which sums up will-worship very well.

Arminian Grace
--------------------

Arminian grace! How strange the sound
Salvation hinged on ME
I once was lost then turned around
Was blind then chose to see

What "grace" is it that calls for choice
Out of some good within?
The part that willed to heed God's voice
Proved stronger than my sin

Through many ardent gospel pleas
I sat with heart of stone
But then some hidden good in me
Propelled me toward my home

When we've been there ten thousand years
Because of what we've done
We've no less days to sing our praise
Than when we'd first begun

(Apologies to John Newton)

 

[David1701]

Yes, some people insist that we have to receive Christ as if we can decide for or against that. If God gives me faith, I have faith.

I think it's important to add that the Bible does speak of us receiving Him, but after being born of God (at least in logical order, if not necessarily chronological order) - John 1:12,13.

 

[Rescued One]

I think it's important to add that the Bible does speak of us receiving Him, but after being born of God (at least in logical order, if not necessarily chronological order) - John 1:12,13.

If we are actually born of God, we DO receive Him.

 

[makesends]

If we are actually born of God, we DO receive Him.

I'm guessing @David1701 meant to say, "accept"—not "receive". There is a difference.

 

[Whatever]

I have had more than one tell me that it depends entirely on their choice, and cannot happen any other way. What would you call that?

I even had one tell me that it 100% depends on them choosing Christ.

That's called Man Centered theology. The emphasis is on man.

2 Thess 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth,

These man centered preachers can't teach on this passage without explaining to their audience that God looked forward in time and saw who was going to choose Him and so He chose them.
Their motto:
God voted for you
Satan voted against you
And you cast the deciding vote.

 

[Whatever]

"Prevenient Grace: Arminianism teaches that prevenient grace is necessary to enable the human will to choose salvation, effectively countering the effects of total depravity.

Yes. they say they believe in total depravity - the T in tulip.

But they give you total depravity with one hand and take it away with the other hand.

To them man has to be the captain of his own ship. They will not let it be God who decides. So they came up with prevenient grace as the way out. It is not irresistible and can be rejected therefore it ends up you save yourself.

 

[makesends]

That's called Man Centered theology. The emphasis is on man.

2 Thess 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth,

These man centered preachers can't teach on this passage without explaining to their audience that God looked forward in time and saw who was going to choose Him and so He chose them.
Their motto:
God voted for you
Satan voted against you
And you cast the deciding vote.

Yep. I remember hearing in church, a relatively new believer, who was 'on fire for the Lord', preaching. He somehow talked himself into saying, and caught himself, realizing it didn't quite make sense, concerning the Gospel and Christ's death: "—which is not really what God intended to happen". Poor guy. The people who had 'brought him to the Lord' had him thinking he had to exonerate God. But it made me grin when I saw him feel uncomfortable saying that.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

I haven't seen a real Arminian online in years...

I think I've mentioned this already

May be true. But I have seen some nasty arminian vs calvin threads in other chatrooms. Some of the nastiest I have ever seen.. So why they may not be arminian. The are something

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Have you visited “Berean Apologetics Ministries”?
I find BAM to be the antithesis of CCC (It is where I go to take a beating when I am feeling a shortage of hate for “Calvinism” and need to rattle some cages.)

​

[MOD EDIT: Tried to add a link to the Berean Apologetics Ministry discussion board but it would not work. I am guessing that it doesn't like the *.forum domain name.]​

​

[Edit: I had deliberately left out a link since many Forums frown on linking to other forums.]​

​

It is a chatroom, I am a member, Someone mentioned civic earlier. He is a member there.

 

[Whatever]

had him thinking he had to exonerate God

I was thinking of starting a thread on Theodicy
from Latin theo = God + Greek dikē = judgment

• A vindication of God's goodness and justice in the face of the existence of evil.
• A vindication of the justice of God in ordaining or permitting natural and moral evil

But I don't have the brain power anymore.

The main theodicy is the Free Will theory. God gave man free will, and with free will evil was a possibility.
The Greater Good theory. Allowing the fall and redeeming some leads to the greater good. (or something like that)
The Soul Building theory. God is building up perfect souls like below:
James 1:2 Count it all joy, my brothers, when you meet trials of various kinds, 3 for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness. 4 And let steadfastness have its full effect, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.

There are more I can't even remember now.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Shortly after it started, I visited as a guest. I was banned after two posts.

Civic got me reinstated, and I later became a member; but, the lack of objectivity on that forum meant that I didn't stay for long.

What do you mean by lack of objectivity? I am trying to go back through some posts to see what was up in that chatroom