Is Double Predestination Biblical?

[atpollard]

<sigh>
Then it should be no problem for you to quote some verses saying that faith in Jesus is a consequence of man's choice. I won't hold my breath...

P.S. If a heart surgeon gives you a new heart, is it the surgeon pumping blood round your body, or the new heart he gave you?

Just for the record, you know @fastfredy0 is a HARD DETERMINIST (a point he and I have debated). I am just saying that his comments need to be read with that in mind.

Did you BELIEVE or did God FORCE YOU to believe?
So people do BELIEVE and the question IS "why?" ... which Ephesians 2 answers [because God did something!]

 

[Arial]

Again, eternal salvation is not in context. here Not is the sovereignty of God. it is all concerning Israel

Did you ever notice that the whole Bible is about God? Is in fact God speaking through men and revealing himself? Paul tells us point blank, it is about God's sovereignty.

 

[Arial]

so I do not see it as you do. So your going to leave. (which is fine, if you do not want to discuss no one is forcing you to )

Hilarious. And an accusation that comes from assuming you are capable of peering inside the mind of another. And a very odd thing for someone to say who puts people on ignore when they won't agree with him.

 

[Rescued One]

The ability to receive is a gift.

Not everyone will receive. That's why Jesus said, if you do not believe you are condemned already. If you do believe you are no longer condemned. You are in essence born again

If God does not love everyone. the bible is not true. He is a god of perfect love that we can not comprehend. and will not until we see him face to face.

Everyone likes to focus on Gods sovereignty. he is sovereign, but even more, he is love.

I see his essence in this way

He is perfect love
He is perfect justice
He is perfectly sovereign.

All of these work together to make him who he is.

As I see it......

the problem is the universalist says God is perfect love. they reject his perfect Justice
The Problem with the fatalist is they say God has perfect justice. Yet is limited or selective on his love

As for as Gods sovereignty goes. It works within the boundaries of perfect love and perfect justice. He is allowed to do as he wishes. and his wishes will not counter his perfect justice or his perfect love.

ALL of the Bible is the word of God.

Psalm 5:4-6

4For You are not a God who takes pleasure in wickedness;
No evil dwells with You.
5The boastful shall not stand before Your eyes;
You hate all who do iniquity.

6You destroy those who speak falsehood;
The LORD abhors the man of bloodshed and deceit.

 

[Whatever]

so you work on saving yourself?

No, I am already saved. I work on denying ungodliness and worldly desires. Not indulging the flesh.

The Westminster Shorter Catechism:
Q. 35. What is sanctification?
A. Sanctification is the work of God’s free grace, whereby we are renewed in the whole man after the image of God, and are enabled more and more to die unto sin, and live unto righteousness.

 

[Rescued One]

Does God believe for you?

Is it him believing in you or you believing (trusting) in him?

I heard there was a group of people who belief it is the faith of God that saves us.

God gives us faith in Christ and Jesus saves us.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

No, I am already saved. I work on denying ungodliness and worldly desires. Not indulging the flesh.

The Westminster Shorter Catechism:
Q. 35. What is sanctification?
A. Sanctification is the work of God’s free grace, whereby we are renewed in the whole man after the image of God, and are enabled more and more to die unto sin, and live unto righteousness.

Ok good

Because you can not cleanse yourself or purify yourself to be saved

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

God gives us faith in Christ and Jesus saves us.

That’s different than saying God believes

 

[Rescued One]

Ephesians 2

1And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2in which you used to walk when you conformed to the ways of this world and of the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit who is now at work in the sons of disobedience. 3All of us also lived among them at one time, fulfilling the cravings of our flesh and indulging its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature children of wrath.

4But because of His great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in our trespasses. It is by grace you have been saved! 6And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with Him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7in order that in the coming ages He might display the surpassing riches of His grace, demonstrated by His kindness to us in Christ Jesus.

8For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance as our way of life.


God will not save everyone.

 

[Rescued One]

That’s different than saying God believes

Why would you say God believes. If someone said that, it wasn't I.

 

[Whatever]

I heard there was a group of people who belief it is the faith of God that saves us.

There is a passage or two in the King James where people say it means this.

King James
Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference

It sounds like Paul is saying we are saved by the faith of Jesus Christ.
But all newer versions change it to what it means

New King James
Rom 3:22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference;

 

[fastfredy0]

Does God believe for you?

Is it him believing in you or you believing (trusting) in him?

I heard there was a group of people who belief it is the faith of God that saves us.

Christians (the elect) are caused by God to believe (trust) in Him?
Empirical evidence proves that individuals do not solely self determine their salvation as shown by survey's showing children tend to follow the religious beliefs or non-belief of their parents. This evidence does not prove God is or is not the ultimate cause, it proves individuals are not the sole ultimate cause and thus proves "free will" to be at most limited.

 

[fastfredy0]

<sigh>
Then it should be no problem for you to quote some verses saying that faith in Jesus is a consequence of man's choice. I won't hold my breath...

<sigh> let's go back to the basics of the English language
definition of choice/choose: an act of selecting or making a decision when faced with two or more possibilities

The empirical evidence is indisputable the all Christians "selected/made a decision" to belief salvificly

... are you saying you are a Christian and have not "selected/made a decision/choosen" to belief salvificly

<end of sigh>

Aside: now, the ultimate (first) cause of any Christian choosing to belief salvificly is God ... I can give verses if you want

 

[fastfredy0]

I was going to "ha,ha" but then I wasn't sure if that was humor or sarcasm!. Ha, ha. Prophecy skills not ready for the title I guess.

It was humor. I have a high degree of respect for your view point. Granted, prophetess was an exaggeration of my admiration.

 

[Rescued One]

Just worried about you.

[MOD EDIT: Quoted post now deleted.]

I'm okay. I've been a Christian for decades.

 

[fastfredy0]

Just for the record, you know @fastfredy0 is a HARD DETERMINIST (a point he and I have debated).

Because of your knowledge and great intelligence I should be given some sort of handicap to give me a chance of winning. Maybe you should only speak in Greek which would cause most to ignore your points ????

 

[David1701]

Just for the record, you know @fastfredy0 is a HARD DETERMINIST (a point he and I have debated). I am just saying that his comments need to be read with that in mind.

Did you BELIEVE or did God FORCE YOU to believe?
So people do BELIEVE and the question IS "why?" ... which Ephesians 2 answers [because God did something!]

I agree with what you said.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Why would you say God believes. If someone said that, it wasn't I.

Someone said it. That’s what I was responding to sorry if you misunderstood

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

There is a passage or two in the King James where people say it means this.

King James
Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference

It sounds like Paul is saying we are saved by the faith of Jesus Christ.
But all newer versions change it to what it means

New King James
Rom 3:22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference;

Yes a John from another chatroom would always say this. I never understood it (he also believed Jews were saved by law and would be again in the future. So there are those people out there

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Christians (the elect) are caused by God to believe (trust) in Him?
Empirical evidence proves that individuals do not solely self determine their salvation as shown by survey's showing children tend to follow the religious beliefs or non-belief of their parents. This evidence does not prove God is or is not the ultimate cause, it proves individuals are not the sole ultimate cause and thus proves "free will" to be at most limited.

I honestly do not know a single person who thinks they are the sole cause of faith in Christ. Everyone I know can give a testimony of many things that led them to faith