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Is Double Predestination Biblical?

makesends said:
Tambora said:
Hmm.
Some of elect Israel believed what Moses and the prophets wrote, some of elect Israel did not believe.
Being "elect" was no assurance they would all be believers.

Then, it seems to me self-evident that this 'elect' —Israel, as @Tambora said— is not the same elect as those God created for the purpose of making for himself a people in Heaven.
Click to expand...
Yes. Although some of this group will also be saved and be as with her gentiles brothers and sisters in Christ. part of this great body.
makesends said:
Thus, Tambora's jumping from one to the other, as though the eternal loss of some of 'elect Israel' implies the eternal loss of some of the 'elect' saved, doesn't follow.
Click to expand...
Not sure what you mean here brother
 
makesends said:
Tambora said:
Hmm.
Some of elect Israel believed what Moses and the prophets wrote, some of elect Israel did not believe.
Being "elect" was no assurance they would all be believers.

Then, it seems to me self-evident that this 'elect' —Israel, as @Tambora said— is not the same elect as those God created for the purpose of making for himself a people in Heaven. Thus, Tambora's jumping from one to the other, as though the eternal loss of some of 'elect Israel' implies the eternal loss of some of the 'elect' saved, doesn't follow.
Click to expand...
The NT does follow the same concept of the OT elect not all remaining elect.
Some will be kicked out of the kingdom.
Some will be cut off.
Some will be blotted out.
etc.
etc.
etc.

Even Jesus tells in a parable that the ones the King invited to the wedding feast didn't come (Matt 22:3).
Which aligns with many OT verses telling of those that God called but they refused to answer (such as Is 66:4).

So in both the OT and the NT not all of the elected, chosen, invited, and called by God ended up saved.
 
Tambora said:
The NT does follow the same concept of the OT elect not all remaining elect.
Some will be kicked out of the kingdom.
Some will be cut off.
Some will be blotted out.
etc.
etc.
etc.

Even Jesus tells in a parable that the ones the King invited to the wedding feast didn't come (Matt 22:3).
Which aligns with many OT verses telling of those that God called but they refused to answer (such as Is 66:4).

So in both the OT and the NT not all of the elected, chosen, invited, and called by God ended up saved.
Click to expand...
In the NT the saved have eternal life which is permanent.
 
Tambora said:
The NT does follow the same concept of the OT elect not all remaining elect.
Some will be kicked out of the kingdom.
Some will be cut off.
Some will be blotted out.
etc.
etc.
etc.

Even Jesus tells in a parable that the ones the King invited to the wedding feast didn't come (Matt 22:3).
Which aligns with many OT verses telling of those that God called but they refused to answer (such as Is 66:4).

So in both the OT and the NT not all of the elected, chosen, invited, and called by God ended up saved.
Click to expand...
Ok. Let me try this: The Elect of the New Testament, of every nation, are not the "remaining elect". The Elect nation of the OT, the Children of Israel, are not the same Elect, as what is referred to in the New Testament that God chose from the foundation of the world. God chose that nation for his particular favor, but not for eternal salvation.

There are indeed many of the Old Testament's Children of Israel that were/are indeed also of the Elect from the foundation of the world. But that is a different thing from being of that nation. That they are of Israel is incidental to the fact that they are Israel. Not all the parallels one might put on the matter apply. Not one whom God intended to be saved will be lost.
 
Tambora said:
The NT does follow the same concept of the OT elect not all remaining elect.
Some will be kicked out of the kingdom.
Some will be cut off.
Some will be blotted out.
etc.
etc.
etc.

Even Jesus tells in a parable that the ones the King invited to the wedding feast didn't come (Matt 22:3).
Which aligns with many OT verses telling of those that God called but they refused to answer (such as Is 66:4).

So in both the OT and the NT not all of the elected, chosen, invited, and called by God ended up saved.
Click to expand...
There really is not OT elect

There was a nation chosen to be Gods nation and there is all who are elect to eternal life

Ie 2 types of elect

Eternal life is eternal not conditional.
 
Rescued One said:
In the NT the saved have eternal life which is permanent.
Click to expand...
Both the OT and the NT tell of ones who were in the kingdom being kicked out, of those that believed falling away, of those in the book being blotted out, and so on and so on.
Not only do we witness it from scripture but also witness it in real life.
 
makesends said:
Ok. Let me try this: The Elect of the New Testament, of every nation, are not the "remaining elect". The Elect nation of the OT, the Children of Israel, are not the same Elect, as what is referred to in the New Testament that God chose from the foundation of the world. God chose that nation for his particular favor, but not for eternal salvation.

There are indeed many of the Old Testament's Children of Israel that were/are indeed also of the Elect from the foundation of the world. But that is a different thing from being of that nation. That they are of Israel is incidental to the fact that they are Israel. Not all the parallels one might put on the matter apply. Not one whom God intended to be saved will be lost.
Click to expand...
Both the OT and the NT have believers from both Israelites and Genitles.
Even the elect nation of Israel had both.
And both the OT and the NT writers tell of some that are kicked from the kingdom, those that believed falling away, those in the book being blotted out, and so on.
One cannot be kicked from the kingdom, fall away, or be blotted out unless they were included.
 
Tambora said:
Both the OT and the NT have believers from both Israelites and Genitles.
Even the elect nation of Israel had both.
And both the OT and the NT writers tell of some that are kicked from the kingdom, those that believed falling away, those in the book being blotted out, and so on.
One cannot be kicked from the kingdom, fall away, or be blotted out unless they were included.
Click to expand...
Call it what you want —as long as it doesn't imply that, or as long as you don't conclude that, God intended for something to happen that did not, or did not intend for something to happen that did. That is, frankly, heretical.
 
Tambora said:
Both the OT and the NT tell of ones who were in the kingdom being kicked out, of those that believed falling away, of those in the book being blotted out, and so on and so on.
Not only do we witness it from scripture but also witness it in real life.
Click to expand...
A child of God who is born of god can not fall away.
 
Tambora said:
Both the OT and the NT have believers from both Israelites and Genitles.
Even the elect nation of Israel had both.
And both the OT and the NT writers tell of some that are kicked from the kingdom, those that believed falling away, those in the book being blotted out, and so on.
One cannot be kicked from the kingdom, fall away, or be blotted out unless they were included.
Click to expand...
Isreal was given land and specific promises

Eternal salvation was not one of these promises
 
Last edited:
Eternally-Grateful said:
Isreal was given land and specific promises

Eternal salvation was not one of these promises
Click to expand...
It was for a remnant Isa 45:17

17 But Israel shall be saved in the Lord with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.

A remnant according to the election of grace !
 
brightfame52 said:
It was for a remnant Isa 45:17

17 But Israel shall be saved in the Lord with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.

A remnant according to the election of grace !
Click to expand...
The remnant is just a term to show God has not left Isreal. Ie he is not going to allow them To cease to be as a nation

And that is based on the covenant of salvation not land
 
Last edited:
Tambora said:
Both the OT and the NT have believers from both Israelites and Genitles.
Even the elect nation of Israel had both.
And both the OT and the NT writers tell of some that are kicked from the kingdom, those that believed falling away, those in the book being blotted out, and so on.
One cannot be kicked from the kingdom, fall away, or be blotted out unless they were included.
Click to expand...
Hi Tambora

One of the evidences of a genuine faith is perseverance in that faith. If you don't persevere in faith, then what have you lost? Understanding this, we have the correct context for the next part.

The *not* blotting out of names was a promise to believers that it would never happen if they overcame, meaning, if their faith was genuine (James 1:12), and not a threat to those same people that one day they could be blotted out.

OT saints were not in the Kingdom to be kicked out, but rather, in Abrahams bosom until Christs death, resurrection, and ascension. So OT writers...And Jesus said that He would not lose any of the believers given to Him by the Father. This includes both OT saints, and every believer in the NT also. (John 6:37, 39, 10:28-29.)

Dave
 
Dave said:
Hi Tambora

One of the evidences of a genuine faith is perseverance in that faith. If you don't persevere in faith, then what have you lost? Understanding this, we have the correct context for the next part.

The *not* blotting out of names was a promise to believers that it would never happen if they overcame, meaning, if their faith was genuine (James 1:12), and not a threat to those same people that one day they could be blotted out.

OT saints were not in the Kingdom to be kicked out, but rather, in Abrahams bosom until Christs death, resurrection, and ascension. So OT writers...And Jesus said that He would not lose any of the believers given to Him by the Father. This includes both OT saints, and every believer in the NT also. (John 6:37, 39, 10:28-29.)

Dave
Click to expand...
Now see God keeps us we do not keep ourselves.
 
Eternally-Grateful said:
The remnant is just a term to show God has not left Isreal. Ie he is not going to allow them To cease to be as a nation

And that is based on the covenant of salvation not land
Click to expand...
I disagree, the remnant is the election of grace which is salvation Rom 11:5-7

5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
Rom 9:27

27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
 
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