Indulgences.

[Carbon]

The Catholic Church's sale of indulgences was a major factor that triggered the Protestant Reformation. Indulgences were certificates that the church offered in exchange for money, which were said to absolve sins and reduce the amount of time a person would spend in purgatory after death. The practice was based on the idea that people could earn divine favor through human merits, especially financial ones. The church formalized the system in 1095 with two types of indulgences: plenary, which could erase all sins and punishment, and partial, which covered a lesser amount.

The practice became popular because people wanted to please God. However, some saw the practice as a form of exploitation. Martin Luther, one of the main Protestant Reformers, was particularly opposed to the sale of indulgences and criticized the practice in his 95 theses, which he nailed to the door of a church in Wittenberg, Germany in 1517, marking the beginning of the Protestant Reformation. Luther's actions, along with other factors, may have slowed or even prevented the Reformation if the public had viewed the Catholic Church as less doctrinally objectionable.

 

[Carbon]

Do todays Catholics still follow this? Do Catholics believe this is a biblical teaching?

 

[Tambora]

Do todays Catholics still follow this? Do Catholics believe this is a biblical teaching?

I hope not.

Luke 19:45-46 KJV
And he went into the temple, and began to cast out them that sold therein, and them that bought;
Saying unto them, It is written, My house is the house of prayer: but ye have made it a den of thieves.

 

[Simons]

Do todays Catholics still follow this? Do Catholics believe this is a biblical teaching?

yes and yes....they have cleaned up the presentation since Tetzel's time, but they can't admit to any actual doctrinal error, because that would mean that their Church could make doctrinal mistakes...and that, in turn, would negate their claim to an infallible teaching magisterium. they are therefore stuck with treating temporal punishment as if it was a commodity that could be bought and sold.

 

[Carbon]

yes and yes....they have cleaned up the presentation since Tetzel's time, but they can't admit to any actual doctrinal error, because that would mean that their Church could make doctrinal mistakes...and that, in turn, would negate their claim to an infallible teaching magisterium. they are therefore stuck with treating temporal punishment as if it was a commodity that could be bought and sold.

Hhmmm. I’m really interested in any scriptures backing the practice

 

[Simons]

Hhmmm. I’m really interested in any scriptures backing the practice

I don't think that there is any real support in scripture....but Catholics are able to read between the lines and find anything that they need/want in the scriptures. For a starter you could look at this: https://www.catholic.com/tract/primer-on-indulgences

 

[makesends]

Do todays Catholics still follow this? Do Catholics believe this is a biblical teaching?

No. It's made its way into the religion of the Planet Savers. The priests, and Pope Al Gore, have instituted indulgences (carbon credits)!

 

[Carbon]

yes and yes....they have cleaned up the presentation since Tetzel's time, but they can't admit to any actual doctrinal error, because that would mean that their Church could make doctrinal mistakes...and that, in turn, would negate their claim to an infallible teaching magisterium. they are therefore stuck with treating temporal punishment as if it was a commodity that could be bought and sold.

Oh good ol' Tetzel, wose actual name was. John Diezel or betteer known as Tetzel. He was of the order of the Dominicians. He had numerous honsors accumulated. Bachelor of Theology, Prior of the Dominieans, Apostolitical Comminsioner, , Inquisitor, (heritical pravilatis inquisitor,) he had ever since the year 1502, filled the office of an agent for the sale of indulgiencies. He was 63 when he started selling indulgiencies. He did pretty well at it even, in 1507, in two days at Freyberg he gained 2000 florens.

Just though I would mention.

 

[Carbon]

Tetzel was pretty arrogant. Here is one of his, whatever you want to call it.

Indulgencies, said he, are the most precious and sublime of God's gifts.
This cross (pointing to the red cross he carried) has as much effiiecasy as the cross of Jesus Christ.
Draw near, and I will give you letters, duly sealed, by which even the sins you shall hereafter desire to commit shall be all forgiven you.
I would not exchange my priveledge for those of saith Peter in heaven, for I have saved more souls with my indulgencies than he with his sermons.
There is no sin so great that the individual cannot remit it, and even if anyone (which is doubtless impossible) ravish the Holy Virgin Mother of God, let him pay, - let him only pay largly, and it shall be forgiven him.
Even repentance is not indespensible.
But more than all this: indulgencies save not the living alone, but they also save the dead.
Ye priests, ye nobils, ye tradsemen, ye wives, ye maidens, and ye young men harken to your departed parents and friends, who cry to you from the bottomless abyss: We are enduring horrible tormet! a small alms would deliver us; - you can give it, and you will not!

It's recoerded that a shudder ran through his hearers at these words, uttered by the formidable voice of the mountebank monk.

That very moment continued Tetzel, "that the money clinks against the bottom of the chest, the soul escspes from Purgatory, and fliesd free to heaven."


I'll stop there for now. Wow! Not only it this so deceiving and unbiblical but extreemly cruel and evil.

 

[Carbon]

Tetzel would also figure out who according to rank in society, what should be paid.
He examined their manner, step and atire, and demanded a sum in proportion to the apparent circumstances of the party presenting himself.
Kings, Queens, princes, archbishops, bishops, &c., were to pay according to the regulation, for an ordinary indulgence, twenty-five ducats; abbots, counts barons, &c., ten. The other nobils, superors, and all who had an annual income of 500 florins, were to pay six.Those who had an incom of 200 florins, one; the rest half a florin. &c.

 

[Carbon]

Looks like thay were making out pretty good. Money wise.

 

[Carbon]

If anyone is curios of what a letter of absolution details were, I can put it here. Just let me know.

 

[Carbon]

Not everyone was ignorant of these practices.

A miner of Schneeberg meeting a seller of indulgencies inquired; "Must we then believe what you have often said of the power of indulgencies and of the authourity of the pope, and think that we can redeem a soul from purgatory by casting a penny inrto the chest?"

The dealer in indulgencies affirmed that it was so. "Ah!" replied the miner, "what a cruel man the pope must be, thus to leave a poor soul to suffer so long in the flames for a wreched penny!
If he has no ready money, let him collect a few thousand crowns, and deliver all these souls by one act. Even we poor folk would willingly pay him the principle and interest.

 

[Carbon]

If anyone is curios of what a letter of absolution details were, I can put it here. Just let me know.

Here is one letter of absolution. It is worthwile to know the contents of these diplomas which gave occasion to the Reformation.

"Our Lord Jesus Christ have mercy on thee, n. n., And obsolve thee by the merits of his most holy sufferings!
And I, in virtue of the apostolic power comitted to me, absolve thee from all ecclesiastical censures, judgements, and penalties that thou mayst have merited; and further. from all excesses ,sins, and crimes that thou mayst have comitted, however great and enormous they may be, and of whatever kind, - even though they should be reserved to our holy father the pope, and to the Apostolic See. I efface all the stains of weakness, and all traces of the shame that thou mayst have drawn upon theyself by such actions. I remit the pains thou wouldst have had to endure in purgatory. I receive thee again to the sacraments of the Church. I hereby reincorporate thee in the communion of the saints, and restore thee to innocence and purity of the baptism; so that, at the moment of death , the gate of the place of tormet shall be shut against thee, and the gate of the paradise of joy shall be opened unto thee. And if thou shouldst live long, this grace continueth unchangeable, till the time of thy end.

In the name of teh father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Amen.

"The brother, John Tetzel, commissiary, had signed with his own hand."

 

[makesends]

Here is one letter of absolution. It is worthwile to know the contents of these diplomas which gave occasion to the Reformation.

"Our Lord Jesus Christ have mercy on thee, n. n., And obsolve thee by the merits of his most holy sufferings!
And I, in virtue of the apostolic power comitted to me, absolve thee from all ecclesiastical censures, judgements, and penalties that thou mayst have merited; and further. from all excesses ,sins, and crimes that thou mayst have comitted, however great and enormous they may be, and of whatever kind, - even though they should be reserved to our holy father the pope, and to the Apostolic See. I efface all the stains of weakness, and all traces of the shame that thou mayst have drawn upon theyself by such actions. I remit the pains thou wouldst have had to endure in purgatory. I receive thee again to the sacraments of the Church. I hereby reincorporate thee in the communion of the saints, and restore thee to innocence and purity of the baptism; so that, at the moment of death , the gate of the place of tormet shall be shut against thee, and the gate of the paradise of joy shall be opened unto thee. And if thou shouldst live long, this grace continueth unchangeable, till the time of thy end.

In the name of teh father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Amen.

"The brother, John Tetzel, commissiary, had signed with his own hand."

—another way to take the name of the Lord in vain.

 

[Carbon]

—another way to take the name of the Lord in vain.

Sadly.

 

[donadams]

I hope not.

Luke 19:45-46 KJV
And he went into the temple, and began to cast out them that sold therein, and them that bought;
Saying unto them, It is written, My house is the house of prayer: but ye have made it a den of thieves.

Hhmmm. I’m really interested in any scriptures backing the practice

Jn 1:16-17

 

[donadams]

Not exactly correct

These were only accusations never sold indulgences
Still even if it were true does not give any authority to start a revolt!
Not a reform nothing was reformed
Christ, his church his truth were rejected and new church with new doctrine was invented!

Only accusations:

“Salvation by the shilling”

Salvation has nothing to do with indulgences!

nor do indulgences have anything to do with the forgiveness of sin!

Salvation is God’s mercy to us thru His church by grace thru the sacraments!

An indulgence is a merit of Jesus Christ thru his blood passion and death! Jn 1:16 & 1:29

Cannot sell indulgences
There were indulgences granted to those who supported the building of churches but not selling, (donations) but if you chose to make a donation you could get an indulgence, but there were and are many other ways to get them without making a donation! Not a requirement

Salvation is by grace with mercy and the forgiveness of sins, in baptism we become Christians united to God by Christ and His grace, and all sin and punishments due for sin are “washed” away, and after baptism sin can be forgiven on true repentance, but the temporal punishment due to these sins must be expiated by prayer, fasting, alms, etc. they are part of the merits of Christ which the church holds in her treasury, connected with these practices an indulgence is granted to greatly expiate the punishment, we must do penance to satisfy the divine justice outraged by our offenses.

Example: a child breaks a window with his baseball, his father forgives him totally, but the child must work and earn money to pay for the window, and we must pray, fast, alms, penance, carry our cross and practice Christian virtues to expiate the temporal punishment due to our sins, God provides for everything in His goodness and gives us ample means to do this, and it purifies our souls in this life or if not he also provides a means of purification in the next.

And we can pray for and do penance and gain indulgences for those being purified since they are in the communion of saints like us and those already perfected in heaven!

An indulgence can only be applied to the punishment due for sins already forgiven!
From Christ’s merits! Jn 1:16-17

 

[Simons]

An indulgence can only be applied to the punishment due for sins already forgiven!
From Christ’s merits! Jn 1:16-17

So here is John 1:16-17: Out of his fullness we have all received grace in place of grace already given. For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

Now I ain't Catholic....so I am not confident that my approach is correct, but I have downed a bottle of white wine, lowered my head and ran into a brick wall, clutched a Rosary whilst listening to a recording of Ave Maria and so, when I squint really hard, I think I see indulgences mentioned in those verses....but everything is rather blurry, so I can't be sure.

 

[Carbon]

Jn 1:16-17

Thats biblical proof for indulgencies?