If Adam and Eve were a product of "evolutionism"....when, how and why did mankind fall?

[CrowCross]

The imperfection is not in the flesh and blood of the man but in the spirit of the man. The spirit of man comes not by procreation but by the hand of God. John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Also, it is all would sin, but it is not all were made to sin. Sin is a choice.

How would evolutionism produce a spirit?

 

[Rella]

They didn't fall, they mutated. I wouldn't play on evolutions turf, it's full of Piltfalls and other pagan superstitions.

I am not an evolutionist. I do hold a solid belief in mutations and hybrids.

But why would Adam , especially, have anything but pure man labelled on him?

7 Then the Lord God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

Leave the woman out of things because she was some kind of a mix from man and whatever. And it is not said anywhere that God breathed
life into her. (I might point out also that those in Genesis one came into being as male and female... but we are not told how.)

 

[Josheb]

I saw no point in answering your rhetorical question.

It's not rhetorical and there is a point to it. Let me know the point was understood, how, and why and I will move on to my next comment or inquiry.

 

[Josheb]

The imperfection is not in the flesh and blood of the man but in the spirit of the man.

Scripture says otherwise.

Psalm 38:3
There is no soundness in my flesh because of Your indignation; there is no health in my bones because of my sin.

Romans 7:5
For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were brought to light by the Law, were at work in the parts of our body to bear fruit for death.

The flesh is sinful, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God (Rom. 8:8). For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish (Gal. 5:17). It was not always that way. There was a time, prior to Genesis 3:6-7, when the flesh was good and sinless (Gen. 1:31). Ther was, in fact, nothing sinless in the world.

The spirit of man comes not by procreation but by the hand of God.

We're not talking about the spirit. If we were I would tell you that spiritually corrupt creatures do not create spiritually pure progeny.

John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

The Spirit to which that verse is referring is the Spirit of God. Jesus is telling a man born of the flesh he must also be born of God's Spirit...... because he and everything about him is sinful. There is no soundness in his flesh and the sinful passions at work in his flesh work in all the parts of his body to bring death. That would include his penis and his sperm and his wife's vagina and ovum. This is why John wrote those who received Jesus were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

 

[makesends]

The imperfection is not in the flesh and blood of the man but in the spirit of the man. The spirit of man comes not by procreation but by the hand of God. John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Also, it is all would sin, but it is not all were made to sin. Sin is a choice.

No doubt sin is a choice. But how does that mean we were not made to sin? (And no, I didn't say made for the ultimate purpose of sinning. (Yesterday I spent a couple of happy hours talking with AI about this kind of thing, and more specifically, about free will. It was refreshing that I did not have to qualify everything I said to mitigate false inferences.))

God created. If you admit he is omniscient and omnipotent, then logically you admit he intended all things, whatsoever come to pass, that result of his creation.

 

[JIM]

The bible.

Adam was made in God image...very good. Are you going to claim God has a sin nature and that sin nature was given to Adam when he was made? Are you going to claim Adam obtained a sin nature that was then passed onto his progeny?

No, the Bible says nothing of the sort. In fact the Bible doesn't even mention a "sin nature". { edit}

 

[JIM]

Scripture says otherwise.

Psalm 38:3
There is no soundness in my flesh because of Your indignation; there is no health in my bones because of my sin.

Romans 7:5
For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were brought to light by the Law, were at work in the parts of our body to bear fruit for death.

The flesh is sinful, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God (Rom. 8:8). For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish (Gal. 5:17). It was not always that way. There was a time, prior to Genesis 3:6-7, when the flesh was good and sinless (Gen. 1:31). Ther was, in fact, nothing sinless in the world.

We're not talking about the spirit. If we were I would tell you that spiritually corrupt creatures do not create spiritually pure progeny.

The Spirit to which that verse is referring is the Spirit of God. Jesus is telling a man born of the flesh he must also be born of God's Spirit...... because he and everything about him is sinful. There is no soundness in his flesh and the sinful passions at work in his flesh work in all the parts of his body to bring death. That would include his penis and his sperm and his wife's vagina and ovum. This is why John wrote those who received Jesus were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

The effect of the sin is the damage it brings to the spirit. The flesh is the flesh; the condition of that flesh does not determine whether one receives eternal life. It is the condition of the spirit that determines that. It is certainly the case that the source of most sin is indeed the flesh, but the real damage done is the spirit. It is the spirit that is born again, not the flesh, in regeneration.

 

[Rella]

The bible.

Adam was made in God image...very good. Are you going to claim God has a sin nature and that sin nature was given to Adam when he was made? Are you going to claim Adam obtained a sin nature that was then passed onto his progeny?

I believe that would be called free will and how that fits into things.

 

[prism]

But why would Adam , especially, have anything but pure man labelled on him?

Disobedience. He followed satan'advice rather than God's. (unless the Fall was to typify Christ's voluntary plunge to save His people (Eve/Church).

 

[makesends]

They fell because they could. The how was by deliberately disobeyed God's commands knowing it would make them dead in sin and the why is to glorify God. But evolution is not intended to explain any of it. As far as evolutionary theory goes, the fall is irrelevant.

And as far as the fall goes, the evolution of mankind from four-legged animal is suspect.

 

[Josheb]

The effect of the sin is the damage it brings to the spirit.

Sin does damage one's spirit, but it ALSO damages one's flesh. The two are not mutually exclusive conditions.

The flesh is the flesh; the condition of that flesh does not determine whether one receives eternal life.

That is incorrect. Neither the flesh nor its works can inherit the kingdom of God. The flesh and Spirit are repeatedly juxtaposed against one another in scripture, even among those born anew from above.

It is the condition of the spirit that determines that.

It is God that determines that.

It is certainly the case that the source of most sin is indeed the flesh, but the real damage done is the spirit.

Your posts now contradict one another.

It is the spirit that is born again, not the flesh, in regeneration.

That is true but that has nothing to do with whether or not the flesh is corrupted by sin.

 

[Alive]

That is incorrect. Neither the flesh nor its works can inherit the kingdom of God. The flesh and Spirit are repeatedly juxtaposed against one another in scripture, even among those born anew from above.

My flesh did not determine my salvation in any way. This protest is misplaced, methinks.

 

[Josheb]

My flesh did not determine my salvation in any way. This protest is misplaced, methinks.

And I think the protest misplaced because we were not discussing the flesh's role in determining salvation and I never said the flesh determined it. We were discussing the fall relative to evolution and then whether or not Adam's sin affected all humanity. It did and continues to affect all humanity and its effect occurred in all aspects of human constitution. The thread is about the fall, not salvation. The broaching of salvation was digression.

The only thing my flesh contributed to my salvation is the sin from which I was saved.

 

[Alive]

And I think the protest misplaced because we were not discussing the flesh's role in determining salvation and I never said the flesh determined it. We were discussing the fall relative to evolution and then whether or not Adam's sin affected all humanity. It did and continues to affect all humanity and its effect occurred in all aspects of human constitution. The thread is about the fall, not salvation. The broaching of salvation was digression.

The flesh is the flesh; the condition of that flesh does not determine whether one receives eternal life.

That is incorrect. Neither the flesh nor its works can inherit the kingdom of God. The flesh and Spirit are repeatedly juxtaposed against one another in scripture, even among those born anew from above.

 

[Mr GLee]

And as far as the fall goes, the evolution of mankind from four-legged animal is suspect.

I would offer.

The fall . Lucifer the spirit of Christ sent by God that was to protect the glory of God the faithful "Let the be" Creator. He usurped the glory as if he was the eternal God the Creator .Ssssssssss false prophecy .In effect saying; don't believe the lie Live forever. . look at my serpent beauty, Why foolishly believe in a eternal God not seen ??.

Cut off all of the legs .Not a leg to stand on our walk with the Holy Spirit. . as if a two walking . Left him in the dust.

Walk by faith as it is written (the unseen things of God) .Walk used as a metaphor in parables to represent the" understanding God" not seen throughout the word.

Genesis 3:14 And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

2 Corinthians 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)

From a warm blooded creature Mankind into a cold blooded murderer Ssssssss

Pray he teach us how to walk or understand by a labor of his love or work of His eternal faithfulness ,

Not that Like Charles Mansion one of the many anti-christs (another teaching authroity other than sola scriptura). Who thought he would never die having multiple brides (false prophets) still dying as martyrs for the lying sign to wonder after. Their own King Satan Ssssssssss

 

[Simons]

We were discussing the fall relative to evolution and then whether or not Adam's sin affected all humanity.

please clarify a few things for me: You said "Adam's sin" and not "Eve's sin"....is there any significance in that for you? If only Eve had sinned (and not Adam) would mankind still be "fallen"?...and vice versa?

Sin does damage one's spirit, but it ALSO damages one's flesh.

an example of such damage to the flesh please...in part I want to make sure your position isn't akin to a Roman Catholic position that sees the need for Mary to be sinless because any sin in her would contaminate the flesh of Jesus.

 

[JIM]

It is God that determines that.

That is true, but God has established the conditions upon which His determination will be made.

Your posts now contradict one another.

Only in your mind.

That is true but that has nothing to do with whether or not the flesh is corrupted by sin.

The flesh can suffer the negative results of sin, but it is the spirit, not the flesh, that is dead in trespasses and sins until that spirit is reborn. The flesh is not reborn. That idea was so preposterous when Nicodemus asked about it, Jesus didn't even bother to answer the question. He just went directly to the heart of the matter, with "flesh begets flesh and Spirit begets spirit". It is spirit that is born of water and Spirit.

 

[JIM]

That is incorrect. Neither the flesh nor its works can inherit the kingdom of God. The flesh and Spirit are repeatedly juxtaposed against one another in scripture, even among those born anew from above.

Yes, Romans 7 lays that out pretty clearly. However, the flesh is not born anew from above; rather, it is the spirit that is REgenerated.

 

[JIM]

I am not an evolutionist. I do hold a solid belief in mutations and hybrids.

But why would Adam , especially, have anything but pure man labelled on him?

7 Then the Lord God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

Leave the woman out of things because she was some kind of a mix from man and whatever. And it is not said anywhere that God breathed
life into her. (I might point out also that those in Genesis one came into being as male and female... but we are not told how.)

Rella, God created both.

Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

I don't understand what is behind the "Eve from Adam's side", but I am positive that men and women are spiritually on equal footing. After all, God said, that in Christ, there is neither male nor female (Gal 3:28).

 

[Josheb]

The imperfection is not in the flesh and blood of the man but in the spirit of the man.

It is certainly the case that the source of most sin is indeed the flesh, but the real damage done is the spirit.

Your posts now contradict one another.

Only in your mind.

The flesh can suffer the negative results of sin............

No, the posts contradict themselves and it's in the thread, not my mind, but the attempted ad hominem is noted. If the imperfection is not in the flesh, then the flesh cannot be the source of most sin, nor can it suffer the negative results of sin. Neither will I collaborate further with any attempt to hijack the op and turn the thread into a debate on synergism.

Bye