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Idealist/Amillennialism

People for some reason like to make it sound like Darby then later on linsey invented the rapture.

I found this a little while ago to help you out...

I can't copy and past the information but this link should help you understand the pre-trib rapture isn't a new or novel idea.

Liberty University article. A brief history of the rapture.
Remember its a evil generation's foundation .Out of sight out of mind .As in who believes in a invisible God as King?

The Pagan foundation of fools

Signs to wonder after are designed to draw the unbelieving nations of the world to the gospel . Christians have prophecy till the end of time .

The last sign to wonder after the sign of Jonah was given the three days and nights demonstration of the Lamb who was slain from the foundation.

Why would a believer seek after signs to wonder wonder wonder after as if it was true prohecy ?

It is why I believe Jesus gave words from his father in regard to the greatest possible miracle "born again" then lovingly commanded as a warning to the sign and wonder seeker Nicodemus to marvel or wonder not .Believers don't wonder rather than believe (exercise faith)

Christ will come and leave like a thief in the night on the last day under the Sun .

Satan the king of lying signs to wonder after would seem has mankind guessing the year. month. day. hour .Like a football lottery or Iron Mike Tyson match. . knock out final round under the Sun LOL
 
What do you think are the strengths of the Idealist pov (relevant to scripture)?.
Their main strength is this: They use no extra biblical source to support, or interpret scriptures. They allow scriptures to interpret themselves and drive the truth for them. Their trust is in Sola scriptura.
What do you think are the weaknesses of the Idealist pov (relevant to scripture)?
If there is a weakness, and there are, since we all have a certain amount of not fully 'doting the i's and crossing the t's'~it would be lack of patience in connecting scriptures with scriptures to get the true biblical picture of eschatology. Truth comes over a period of time, by that, I means years, not days and months!
 
Their main strength is this: They use no extra biblical source to support, or interpret scriptures. They allow scriptures to interpret themselves and drive the truth for them. Their trust is in Sola scriptura.

If there is a weakness, and there are, since we all have a certain amount of not fully 'doting the i's and crossing the t's'~it would be lack of patience in connecting scriptures with scriptures to get the true biblical picture of eschatology. Truth comes over a period of time, by that, I means years, not days and months!

Amen the whole armor of Christ . Christ working in the believer. It powerfully defend us. Apologist defend it (sola scriptura)

Take the shield of faith the unseen eternal things as power of God it makes the oral tradition of dying mankind as false prophecy (fiery darts) without effect

Ephesians 6:16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
 
@CrowCross

Let's try and get back on track. We are not looking at specific interpretations of anything in Revelation. We are discussing the method or way of interpretation of one specific view. Idealist/amillennialism. Since you disagree with the results that view arrives at, what do you say in incorrect about the following and what would be correct iyo (and we will go through each one in post #2, one by one):

"The idealist view often interprets the symbols in the Book of Revelation as being closely tied to imagery and themes found in the OT. This approach is grounded in the principle of 'Scripture interpreting Scripture,' which is the key tenet of Reformed hermeneutics. Here's how this works in the context of Revelation:

1. Old Testament Imagery: Many symbols in Revelation have their roots in the OT. For example, the use of beasts, numbers, and figures like Babylon and Jerusalem often draw on OT language and symbolism. The idealist view sees these symbols as conveying deep theological truths that are consistent throughout Scripture."
 
From monergism.com
Part One

Which method of interpretation of Revelation is the most common found among Reformed or covenant theologians?

Among Reformed or covenant theologians, the most commonly embraced method of interpreting the Book of Revelation is the Amillennial and Idealist (or Symbolic) view. This approach is consistent with the overall theological framework of Reformed theology, which emphasizes the sovereignty of God, the centrality of Christ in all of Scripture, and the continuity of God’s covenantal dealings with His people. Here's a brief overview:

  1. Amillennial Interpretation:
    • Overview: Amillennialism, common in Reformed theology, holds that the millennium (the thousand-year reign mentioned in Revelation 20) is symbolic and represents the current church age, rather than a literal future period.
    • Key Features: This view sees Christ's reign as spiritual rather than earthly, with the millennium symbolizing the reign of Christ in heaven and through His church on earth, beginning with His first coming and continuing until His return.
    • Eschatology: It interprets the final judgment and the new creation as events that will occur at Christ’s second coming, rather than as part of a literal thousand-year earthly kingdom.
  2. Idealist (Symbolic) View:
    • Overview: The Idealist approach interprets Revelation as a timeless portrayal of the cosmic struggle between good and evil. It sees the book as highly symbolic, conveying spiritual truths relevant to believers in every age.
    • Key Features: This view tends to avoid identifying specific events or figures in Revelation with particular historical or future occurrences, instead focusing on the ongoing spiritual realities and truths represented by the book's imagery.
    • Application: It emphasizes the encouragement and hope that Revelation offers to Christians in all eras, highlighting the ultimate victory of Christ and the call for faithfulness amidst trials and persecutions.
Both these approaches align with the broader Reformed emphasis on the unity and continuity of Scripture, the overarching narrative of redemptive history, and the application of biblical truths to all believers, regardless of their historical context. They avoid overly literal or speculative interpretations of apocalyptic literature and instead focus on the theological and spiritual lessons that can be drawn from the text.
I am going to honest here. As I read what you say abou the idealist view, and what some others have posted, I can't help but remember that it seems that this kind of view is the reason the Jews missed Jesus' first coming. They erased Jesus' first coming, because it did not fit in with their understanding of the Old Testament and how things are to be. They avoided identifying the Messiah (specific event/figure) in the Old Testament with a specific person, being, the suffering servant in Isaiah. It was so bad that when asked point blank where the King was to be born, they knew the answer, but had already spiritualized the prophecy away. Even though the Magi said the King had been born, and they told them where the King was born, they would not believe He was born because it didn't fit their understanding/belief of prophecy. If they realized, hey guys, this is it, they would have gone with the Magi.

They continued to miss prophecy and even signs at every point. They point blank asked Jesus for a sign, and He said none would be given to this evil and adulterous generation, but one. So He gave them a sign. The sign of Jonah. Could that have been meant as an insult, besides as basically His death, burial, and resurrection in a nutshell? I mean, Jonah existed for the purpose of going to Ninevah, an evil countray to preach repentance, as John and Jesus were doing. Jesus didn't run away, however, so imperfect at best. They still didn't get it, even after they knew He had died, been buried, and resurrected. They still didn't get it. They told the Roman guards to lie, and covered it up. Jesus did not fit their view of what they believed prophecy was telling them the Messiah would be. Why? They spiritualized/allegorized away all those prophecies.
 
Let's try and get back on track. We are not looking at specific interpretations of anything in Revelation. We are discussing the method or way of interpretation of one specific view.
I've told you several times....you can look at what's happening today and apply it to what the book of Revelation says will happen.

What would you label this interpretation as?
 
1. Old Testament Imagery: Many symbols in Revelation have their roots in the OT. For example, the use of beasts, numbers, and figures like Babylon and Jerusalem often draw on OT language and symbolism. The idealist view sees these symbols as conveying deep theological truths that are consistent throughout Scripture."

What is a Idealist?

I would agree without parables the signified understanding .Using the temporal things seen beast or numbers as symbols to give the invisible thing. The thing of faith. . . power to believe God

The whole time period Kings in Israel the abomination of desolation it was used as a figure or parable. . same thing the ceremonial shadows they disappeared the restoration of the reformation, sola scriptura began . Our daily bread

Hebrew 9: 8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.
 
I've told you several times....you can look at what's happening today and apply it to what the book of Revelation says will happen.

What would you label this interpretation as?
I would offer.

Signified the interpretation of parables, called hidden manna in chapter 2:17 .Manna gives us the daily power to do His will

Revelation 1King James Version1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

No signs were given to wonder after.

Signs the non faithless unredeemed . (Out of sight. out of mind)

Prophecy as it is written the redeemed (Out of sight. . the revealed mind of the Faithful Father working in sons of God
 
I've told you several times....you can look at what's happening today and apply it to what the book of Revelation says will happen.

What would you label this interpretation as?
Do you really think I am going to answer your question when you refuse to answer mine? When you actually participate in what I have offered you, then I will answer your question. That is common decency.
 
I am going to honest here. As I read what you say abou the idealist view, and what some others have posted, I can't help but remember that it seems that this kind of view is the reason the Jews missed Jesus' first coming. They erased Jesus' first coming, because it did not fit in with their understanding of the Old Testament and how things are to be. They avoided identifying the Messiah (specific event/figure) in the Old Testament with a specific person, being, the suffering servant in Isaiah. It was so bad that when asked point blank where the King was to be born, they knew the answer, but had already spiritualized the prophecy away. Even though the Magi said the King had been born, and they told them where the King was born, they would not believe He was born because it didn't fit their understanding/belief of prophecy. If they realized, hey guys, this is it, they would have gone with the Magi.

They continued to miss prophecy and even signs at every point. They point blank asked Jesus for a sign, and He said none would be given to this evil and adulterous generation, but one. So He gave them a sign. The sign of Jonah. Could that have been meant as an insult, besides as basically His death, burial, and resurrection in a nutshell? I mean, Jonah existed for the purpose of going to Ninevah, an evil countray to preach repentance, as John and Jesus were doing. Jesus didn't run away, however, so imperfect at best. They still didn't get it, even after they knew He had died, been buried, and resurrected. They still didn't get it. They told the Roman guards to lie, and covered it up. Jesus did not fit their view of what they believed prophecy was telling them the Messiah would be. Why? They spiritualized/allegorized away all those prophecies.
They were doing the opposite of spiritualizing it. What they missed was that Messiah is God who comes to us as Son of Man. What they missed was that the Messiah would come to save people from all nations and not just Israel.

Now, could you please deal with the actual OP instead of attempting to take it over by yet another discussion on specific interpretations. If you need help in discerning what the OP is about: It is a description of the interpretive methods of a specific view and why and how they are used in apocalyptic literature.

Apocalypse comes from a Greek word meaning to reveal or uncover something. It does so through symbolic imagines such as visions, dreams, figurative language. Its theme is hope based on confidence in God's control over events and people, even when when they seem chaotic and/or overwhelming.

So the conversation should be about what is in error in the way the view arrives at conclusions and/or specific interpretations, if someone thinks it is. You can go point by point through how this is done in Revelation that are given in Part 2 of the OP. What the conversation should not be is simply saying they are wrong because their conclusions conflict with your conclusions on specific interpretations. Can we please try to do that?
 
What do you think are the strengths of the Idealist pov (relevant to scripture)?
To the whole of scripture? Not understanding genre, Bible historical context, symbolizing where symbols are not being used. So the weakness is in people, not the view. And when it comes to amillennialism it would be the same weakness---people's inaccuracy concerning what to us in this time is alien (apocalyptic prophecy). It is not easy, especially since most of us began our Christian journey presented with one view and one view only---that of pre-trib premillennialism and it is hard to escape the influence now when reading Rev.

But this is a great benefit to getting the message and purpose of Rev instead of getting lost in what one sees as a puzzle to be solved.
It is true that a lack of understanding genre, historical context and symbols is a weakness of Idealism but I would add to other items: 1) the presuppositional denial of anything predictive in prophecy and 2) the disingenuous assertion of Idealism as an amillennial position.

The word "prophecy" is, by definition, a prediction. It therefore seems incomprehensible that Idealism would deny (or dismiss, or minimize) the inherent predictive nature of prophecy in favor of a symbolic, generalized, and ahistorical approach to interpretation. That Idealism is an amillennial point of view is not in dispute but to conflate Idealism with Amillennialism is inaccurate. It is very much like the Dispensationalist saying Dispensationalism is Premillennialism, when the truth is Dispensationalism is premillennial, not Premillennialism (which is why the Historicists separated from the Dispensationalists and renamed their position as Historical Premillennialism). What Idealist should say is Idealist is amillennial, not Amillennialism. The weakness is in the viewpoint, not people. The weakness is in the viewpoint because it denies the historical aspects and the predictive aspects of both scripture and apocalyptic literature. The viewpoint both are not predictions is an opinion, not fact. It's a bias, not absolute truth. As far as theological and spiritual lessons being drawn from the text goes, the success of that endeavor is dependent solely upon the accuracy of the interpretation. That is where the weakness of the "people" or person asserting the interpretation lies, but that is very much a product of the de-emphasis of history, predictivity, and literalness of scripture. That weakness is also dependent on the subjectivity of the interpretational methodology.

Yes, there is benefit to understanding the principles and precepts ensconced in prophetic prediction and the apocalyptic genre, but not at the expense of the truth of God's prediction and the trust established by the fact God kept His word (past tense). Understanding the timeless principles is a strength (of which more will be said in a minute) but the discarding of history and the commensurate foundation of trust and faith is a weakness.
 
What do you think are the strengths of the Idealist pov (relevant to scripture)?
My focus is not the idealist interpretive method in general, (see OP board) but the idealist amillennial interpretive view in Revelation. And I point out here, just so we don't continue or revert back to a discussion on the use of "method", that both idealism and amillennialism use interpretive methods. (A means or manner of procedure, especially a regular and systematic way of accomplishing something.) This idealist/ amillennial view of course is the product of consistency with idealism.

The title of the article I posted from however is "What are some of the different views of interpreting Revelation? Perhaps I should have included that title, but I figured the OP board would make it clear.

In interpreting Revelation this is the strength with which I fully agree.

"Both these approaches align with the broader Reformed emphasis on the unity and continuity of Scripture, the overarching narrative of redemptive history, and the application of biblical truths to all believers, regardless of their historical context. They avoid overly literal or speculative interpretations of apocalyptic literature and instead focus on the theological and spiritual lessons that can be drawn from the text."
Yes, both Idealists and Amillennialists use interpretive methods, but 1) so does everyone else, and 2) Idealist methods and Amillennialist methods are not identical. To say, "'Xists' use methods" is to say nothing new. That's not a strength. Appeals to "the broader Reformed emphasis," is not a strength, either. The reason it is not a strength is because it is an appeal to affiliation. The basis of the argument is, "Because we are Reformed the eschatology has validity and veracity" but that is a false cause fallacy. Emphasizing unity and continuity from a Reformed perspective does not make Idealism true or correct. It helps, but it is not a guarantee of correctness. The reason I point this out is because sometimes theologians make mistakes and examining their views reveals their errors. Leading Dispensationalists appeal to their preferred aspects of Reformed emphasis, too (they choose different emphases) but that appeal to Reformed emphasis does not make Dispensationalism correct. EVERYONE considering Idealism versus Dispensationalism MUST necessarily understand they both cannot be correct (because they teach completely irreconcilable, contradictory viewpoints). The question is whether or not either one of them is correct.

When the Idealists states they, "avoid overly literal or speculative interpretations of apocalyptic literature...," that should cause alarm because the very first two rules of proper and sound exegesis are to 1) read the text exactly as written with the normal meaning of the words in their ordinary usage unless there is reason to do otherwise, and 2) understand the text as the original author and his original audience would have understood the text. In other words, the Idealist either partly or wholly discards the very foundation of sound exegesis! The Idealist might appeal to the word "overly," but that's not a term they define with any substance. How much literalness is too much? At what point of literalness does "overly" occur? The answer depends on one's point of view and that makes Idealism very subjective.

The strength of Idealism is its emphasis on the transcendent conditions of God's involvement in redemptive history (or God's ongoing involvement in human history, if one prefers). Another of its strengths is understanding and asserting the transcendent nature of scripture's symbolism. The symbols of judgment, redemption, salvation, etc. are never-ending. God acts throughout history, and He does so in ways that have previously occurred, but in principle or precept not detail. Another strength of Idealism is its reliance on precedent. For example, when an apostle treated a prophecy figuratively, allegorically, symbolically, then it is good and right, and correct for anyone and everyone else coming after them to follow their example and do likewise. The irony is that would be a literal treatment of scripture. The apostle literally treated the text symbolically ;) (and that would be a place where Idealism and Dispensationalism part ways). The strength of Idealism comes only when the symbols are correctly interpreted and then correctly applied. So, for example, when scripture states the light was coming into the world, and came, that does not preclude that light from being Jesus or that the effect of his coming into the world had only a fixed effect at a fixed time and none other (that would be an overly literal interpretation ;)). That's not a very good example because it's not from an apocalyptic genre. An apocalyptic example would be the fact judgement did come, and it came literally, and literally as a fact and a specific event in history...... from which there is a witness and therefore a testimony upon which those who live a year, a century, a millennium later, etc. can rely. In other words, we build our faith on God having actually factually kept His word in real time and space and not solely on God acting in commonly re-occurring ways that aren't based on predictive scripture. The latter is of benefit, but it's built on the former. Lastly, yet another strength of Idealism is its ability to include soteriology in eschatology; it's understanding and asserting Jesus' soteriological entrance into redemptive human history is inherently and necessarily tied to a whole-scripture view of end times.

In these senses, Idealism stands a better alternative to understanding eschatology than the alternative of modern futurism (Dispensationalism and modern Zionism). However, Idealism is best understood as a subset of Amillennialism but not a point of view wholly representative of Amillennial eschatology. Classic Amillennialism does not deny, de-emphasize, or dismiss scriptural predictivity, not even in apocalyptic writings. Classic Amillennialism does not deny literalness or symbolism and does not pit the two against one another (a little, moderately, or overly). In this sense Idealism provides a contrast to preterism. All Christians are Christological and soteriological preterists. All Christians are in some small or large way also eschatological preterists. Full preterism is at the extreme end, eschatologically speaking, and Idealism risks being at the opposite end with its minimalization of (prophetic and/or apocalyptic) scripture as predictive and historical.




Luther, Calvin, and Knox, for example, might be considered partially Idealists in their eschatology simply because they (along with many other Reformers) believed the Pope (or the papal system) was the antichrist. The irony is that if he believed only one Pope was the antichrist then he could NOT be considered Idealist because that Pope would be the fulfillment of predictive apocalyptic prophecy, and we'd have to leave Calvin's specific view behind to generalize popes in general as example of antichrists (in general) that occur throughout history. Alternatively, if it was the papal system as a whole that could correctly be construed as the antichrist, then that would necessarily preclude anything or anyone else from being the antichrist. Otherwise, these men were Augustinian Amillennialists but not Idealists.

So..... there are many reasons to read and adhere to the Idealist perspective, but the veracity of that viewpoint is dependent upon sound exegesis, sound hermeneutics, a correct understanding of symbolism as scripture asserts it (rather than extra-scriptural or post hoc interpretations), and the understanding Idealism is amillennial, not Amillennial.
 
From monergism.com
Part One

Which method of interpretation of Revelation is the most common found among Reformed or covenant theologians?
Among Reformed or covenant theologians, the most commonly embraced method of interpreting the Book of Revelation is the Amillennial and Idealist (or Symbolic) view. This approach is consistent with the overall theological framework of Reformed theology, which emphasizes the sovereignty of God, the centrality of Christ in all of Scripture, and the continuity of God’s covenantal dealings with His people. Here's a brief overview:
  1. Amillennial Interpretation:
    • Overview: Amillennialism, common in Reformed theology, holds that the millennium (the thousand-year reign mentioned in Revelation 20) is symbolic and represents the current church age, rather than a literal future period.
    • Key Features: This view sees Christ's reign as spiritual rather than earthly, with the millennium symbolizing the reign of Christ in heaven and through His church on earth, beginning with His first coming and continuing until His return.
    • Eschatology: It interprets the final judgment and the new creation as events that will occur at Christ’s second coming, rather than as part of a literal thousand-year earthly kingdom.
Keeping in mind that the kingdom of God is here now (Lk 11:20, Mt 12:18), it is everlasting (Lk 1:33)-- there is no other coming kingdom of God.
It is not of this world, earthly (Mt 18:36), it is spiritual, hidden and within (Lk 17:20-21) the hearts where he reigns and rules.
  1. Idealist (Symbolic) View:
    • Overview: The Idealist approach interprets Revelation as a timeless portrayal of the cosmic struggle between good and evil. It sees the book as highly symbolic, conveying spiritual truths relevant to believers in every age.
    • Key Features: This view tends to avoid identifying specific events or figures in Revelation with particular historical or future occurrences, instead focusing on the ongoing spiritual realities and truths represented by the book's imagery.
    • Application: It emphasizes the encouragement and hope that Revelation offers to Christians in all eras, highlighting the ultimate victory of Christ and the call for faithfulness amidst trials and persecutions.
Both these approaches align with the broader Reformed emphasis on the unity and continuity of Scripture, the overarching narrative of redemptive history, and the application of biblical truths to all believers, regardless of their historical context. They avoid overly literal or speculative interpretations of apocalyptic literature and instead focus on the theological and spiritual lessons that can be drawn from the text.
 
Their main strength is this: They use no extra biblical source to support, or interpret scriptures. They allow scriptures to interpret themselves and drive the truth for them. Their trust is in Sola scriptura.
That is incorrect. The belief scripture (prophecy/apocalypse) is extra-biblical.
If there is a weakness, and there are, since we all have a certain amount of not fully 'dotting the i's and crossing the t's'~it would be lack of patience in connecting scriptures with scriptures to get the true biblical picture of eschatology. Truth comes over a period of time, by that, I means years, not days and months!
Perhaps, but certain occasions for "patience" are precluded by an appropriate, aa soundly exegetical reading of the text. Either way, weaknesses exist.


However, my main point of dissent with the original source from which this op was taken is the sloppiness of that article. It opens the Idealist model to both warranted and unwarranted criticism. There's no author stated to have written that article so s/he cannot be cited specifically. I assume (I hope) the article was reviewed and approved by some editor or group of editors at monergismdotcom but that may be more problematic, not less, because that would mean one individual (the author) used his words poorly and then someone else (or a group of others) did not catch the mistakes and approved of them (at least unwittingly). An extreme example of this, an example removed from Idealism, would be David Hunt and his defense of soteriological synergism. Even if synergism were correct, Mr. Hunt is a sloppy apologist and his wanton, chronic, misuse of scripture undermines whatever veracity his argument might have (which I think is very little). It's not okay to say Idealism is a method, and if it is a method then it is decidedly an extra-scriptural and eisegetic method. The statement including the Idealist method is the most commonly embraced method is just factually incorrect. If the author is a PhD then he's either incompetent or lying (or mentally ill). It's not okay for highly educated, well-seasoned/practiced/experienced teachers to make mistakes like that - especially when more accurate, valid, and veracious alternatives are available. He could have simply said it was a commonly occurring approach, historically. That would have been true and correct.

The contemporary conflation of Idealism by Idealists with Amillennialism, as I mentioned in one of my above posts) is very similar to when Dispensationalists try to pass of historical uses of "dispensation" and historical premillennial viewpoints as proof of Dispensational Premillennialism's (DPism) veracity. Because those claims are made by ThDs who claim to have investigated our theological history they are liars. They did NOT make an "honest" mistake. They post that nonsense with an intent to deceive. There's absolutely no other explanation once you or I go read the ECFs for ourselves and discover the Dispensationalists misrepresented the objectively verifiable facts for the sole purpose of justifying their theology, and subordinate eschatology. I do not go as far as to say the Idealists like the author of that article act with knowing deception because I do not know the author, but I do know Idealism's open discounting of historicity and predictiveness is incorrect. ANYONE of us can go back and read about interpretative methods and eschatological points of views within Christendom and objectively verify the Idealist viewpoint is not synonymous with Amillennialism, nor is it possess the same "commonly embraced method." Simple error or willful deceit? I do not know in that particular case but I do know it is an easily corrected statement and having a more accurate understanding benefits everyone, including the Idealist.

Similar concerns apply to...

"This approach is consistent with the overall theological framework of Reformed theology, which emphasizes the sovereignty of God, the centrality of Christ in all of Scripture, and the continuity of God’s covenantal dealings with His people. Here's a brief overview: ......"​

These comments imply the supposed consistency proves veracity. As I previously stated above, Historicists, Postmils, and Dispies all assert a consistency with the Reformed emphasis on God's sovereignty and centrality of Christ. DPism will part ways regarding the continuity of God's covenant dealings, but they demonstrably claim to be consistent with sovereignty and the centrality of Christ. The argument is lacking, and if it's written by someone well-educated, studied, and practiced in Idealism and comparative eschatology and hermeneutics then it is just of me to call it "sloppy."


We live in an age wherein anyone can post anything online and 1) treat it as truth/fact and 2) have it treated as truth/fact. Words have meaning. The rules of exegesis and logic aren't malleable. I know some (many?) disdain my exacting nature but I'm not trolling. We need to be discerning, and we need teachers who do the work before we get to what they teach.

James 3:1-2
Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we will incur a stricter judgment. For we all stumble in many ways. If anyone does not stumble in what he says, he is a perfect man, able to bridle the whole body as well.

James happens to be writing about specific areas of discord among his readers but what if his words are taken and applied to doctrine?

James 3:2-4
For we all stumble in many ways. If anyone does not stumble in what he says, he is a perfect man, able to bridle the whole body as well. Now if we put the bits into the horses' mouths so that they will obey us, we direct their entire body as well. Look at the ships also, though they are so great and are driven by strong winds, are still directed by a very small rudder wherever the inclination of the pilot desires.


Eschatology is one of the most vigorously (and often rancorously) debated doctrines of our day. It is, therefore, incumbent 1) upon every teacher to get it correct, and 2) every reader/hearer to think critically. With a few minor changes that article could be correct, truthful, and worth reading. It puts the Idealist in an awkward position having to defend the article as a defense of Idealism. That article can be faulty, and Idealism still be valid.
 
Keeping in mind that the kingdom of God is here now (Lk 11:20, Mt 12:18), it is everlasting (Lk 1:33)-- there is no other coming kingdom of God.
It is not of this world, earthly (Mt 18:36), it is spiritual, hidden and within (Lk 17:20-21) the hearts where he reigns and rules.
I agree and that is the idealist/amillennial view also. Of course with exceptions among individuals.
 
Yes, both Idealists and Amillennialists use interpretive methods, but 1) so does everyone else, and 2) Idealist methods and Amillennialist methods are not identical. To say, "'Xists' use methods" is to say nothing new. That's not a strength. Appeals to "the broader Reformed emphasis," is not a strength, either. The reason it is not a strength is because it is an appeal to affiliation. The basis of the argument is, "Because we are Reformed the eschatology has validity and veracity" but that is a false cause fallacy. Emphasizing unity and continuity from a Reformed perspective does not make Idealism true or correct. It helps, but it is not a guarantee of correctness. The reason I point this out is because sometimes theologians make mistakes and examining their views reveals their errors. Leading Dispensationalists appeal to their preferred aspects of Reformed emphasis, too (they choose different emphases) but that appeal to Reformed emphasis does not make Dispensationalism correct. EVERYONE considering Idealism versus Dispensationalism MUST necessarily understand they both cannot be correct (because they teach completely irreconcilable, contradictory viewpoints). The question is whether or not either one of them is correct.

When the Idealists states they, "avoid overly literal or speculative interpretations of apocalyptic literature...," that should cause alarm because the very first two rules of proper and sound exegesis are to 1) read the text exactly as written with the normal meaning of the words in their ordinary usage unless there is reason to do otherwise, and 2) understand the text as the original author and his original audience would have understood the text. In other words, the Idealist either partly or wholly discards the very foundation of sound exegesis! The Idealist might appeal to the word "overly," but that's not a term they define with any substance. How much literalness is too much? At what point of literalness does "overly" occur? The answer depends on one's point of view and that makes Idealism very subjective.

The strength of Idealism is its emphasis on the transcendent conditions of God's involvement in redemptive history (or God's ongoing involvement in human history, if one prefers). Another of its strengths is understanding and asserting the transcendent nature of scripture's symbolism. The symbols of judgment, redemption, salvation, etc. are never-ending. God acts throughout history, and He does so in ways that have previously occurred, but in principle or precept not detail. Another strength of Idealism is its reliance on precedent. For example, when an apostle treated a prophecy figuratively, allegorically, symbolically, then it is good and right, and correct for anyone and everyone else coming after them to follow their example and do likewise. The irony is that would be a literal treatment of scripture. The apostle literally treated the text symbolically ;) (and that would be a place where Idealism and Dispensationalism part ways). The strength of Idealism comes only when the symbols are correctly interpreted and then correctly applied. So, for example, when scripture states the light was coming into the world, and came, that does not preclude that light from being Jesus or that the effect of his coming into the world had only a fixed effect at a fixed time and none other (that would be an overly literal interpretation ;)). That's not a very good example because it's not from an apocalyptic genre. An apocalyptic example would be the fact judgement did come, and it came literally, and literally as a fact and a specific event in history...... from which there is a witness and therefore a testimony upon which those who live a year, a century, a millennium later, etc. can rely. In other words, we build our faith on God having actually factually kept His word in real time and space and not solely on God acting in commonly re-occurring ways that aren't based on predictive scripture. The latter is of benefit, but it's built on the former. Lastly, yet another strength of Idealism is its ability to include soteriology in eschatology; it's understanding and asserting Jesus' soteriological entrance into redemptive human history is inherently and necessarily tied to a whole-scripture view of end times.

In these senses, Idealism stands a better alternative to understanding eschatology than the alternative of modern futurism (Dispensationalism and modern Zionism). However, Idealism is best understood as a subset of Amillennialism but not a point of view wholly representative of Amillennial eschatology. Classic Amillennialism does not deny, de-emphasize, or dismiss scriptural predictivity, not even in apocalyptic writings. Classic Amillennialism does not deny literalness or symbolism and does not pit the two against one another (a little, moderately, or overly). In this sense Idealism provides a contrast to preterism. All Christians are Christological and soteriological preterists. All Christians are in some small or large way also eschatological preterists. Full preterism is at the extreme end, eschatologically speaking, and Idealism risks being at the opposite end with its minimalization of (prophetic and/or apocalyptic) scripture as predictive and historical.




Luther, Calvin, and Knox, for example, might be considered partially Idealists in their eschatology simply because they (along with many other Reformers) believed the Pope (or the papal system) was the antichrist. The irony is that if he believed only one Pope was the antichrist then he could NOT be considered Idealist because that Pope would be the fulfillment of predictive apocalyptic prophecy, and we'd have to leave Calvin's specific view behind to generalize popes in general as example of antichrists (in general) that occur throughout history. Alternatively, if it was the papal system as a whole that could correctly be construed as the antichrist, then that would necessarily preclude anything or anyone else from being the antichrist. Otherwise, these men were Augustinian Amillennialists but not Idealists.

So..... there are many reasons to read and adhere to the Idealist perspective, but the veracity of that viewpoint is dependent upon sound exegesis, sound hermeneutics, a correct understanding of symbolism as scripture asserts it (rather than extra-scriptural or post hoc interpretations), and the understanding Idealism is amillennial, not Amillennial.
OK. There is no way to respond to that without going completely off topic.
 
It is true that a lack of understanding genre, historical context and symbols is a weakness of Idealism but I would add to other items: 1) the presuppositional denial of anything predictive in prophecy and 2) the disingenuous assertion of Idealism as an amillennial position.
There is no presuppositional denial of anything predictive in prophecy in idealist/amillennialism. There is such a thing as idealist/amillennialism. That is the specific position being discussed. It is a false equivalency to say that all idealism is amillennial.
The word "prophecy" is, by definition, a prediction. It therefore seems incomprehensible that Idealism would deny (or dismiss, or minimize) the inherent predictive nature of prophecy in favor of a symbolic, generalized, and ahistorical approach to interpretation
This is irrelevant since the amillenialist position of idealism (those idealist who do hold an amilleial position) does not deny prophecy.
That Idealism is an amillennial point of view is not in dispute but to conflate Idealism with Amillennialism is inaccurate.
It wasn't being conflated. It was being defined.
What Idealist should say is Idealist is amillennial, not Amillennialism
What people should say (can a person get that "Book of Shoulds" on Amaxon?) is truly irrelevant to the actual conversation. It is amillennialism from the perspective of the Idealist.
The weakness is in the viewpoint because it denies the historical aspects and the predictive aspects of both scripture and apocalyptic literature
I soundly disagree that it does that. It is somewhat of a disgrace to make such an unfounded accusation. I question whether you know the Idealist view very well and that it may be more of an opposition to its not being partial preterist. It is the typical Reformed view and that in no way ever leaves out historical aspects, predictive aspects in all of Scripture, even apocalyptic literature. It is the very foundation of Reformed interpretation of Scripture to include all of those things. It is what makes it so reliable and consistent.
As far as theological and spiritual lessons being drawn from the text goes, the success of that endeavor is dependent solely upon the accuracy of the interpretation. That is where the weakness of the "people" or person asserting the interpretation lies, but that is very much a product of the de-emphasis of history, predictivity, and literalness of scripture. That weakness is also dependent on the subjectivity of the interpretational methodology.
There is no de-emphasis of history, productivity , and literalness of scripture. You have said that, more than once, but you have yet to show it validity.
 
Do you really think I am going to answer your question when you refuse to answer mine? When you actually participate in what I have offered you, then I will answer your question. That is common decency.
I'm no quite sure what you asked me. Perhaps you can sum it up in a short paragraph rather than a lengthy post.

And yes, I so expect an answer. All I have seen from you is running around..... 🥁 around the 🪴.
 
I'm no quite sure what you asked me. Perhaps you can sum it up in a short paragraph rather than a lengthy post.

And yes, I so expect an answer. All I have seen from you is running around.....🥁 around the 🪴.
Let's try and get back on track. We are not looking at specific interpretations of anything in Revelation. We are discussing the method or way of interpretation of one specific view. Idealist/amillennialism. Since you disagree with the results that view arrives at, what do you say in incorrect about the following and what would be correct iyo (and we will go through each one in post #2, one by one):

"The idealist view often interprets the symbols in the Book of Revelation as being closely tied to imagery and themes found in the OT. This approach is grounded in the principle of 'Scripture interpreting Scripture,' which is the key tenet of Reformed hermeneutics. Here's how this works in the context of Revelation:

1. Old Testament Imagery: Many symbols in Revelation have their roots in the OT. For example, the use of beasts, numbers, and figures like Babylon and Jerusalem often draw on OT language and symbolism. The idealist view sees these symbols as conveying deep theological truths that are consistent throughout Scripture."
Post #24. Not a lengthy post.
 
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