HOW GENUINE IS THE "RAPTURE" DOCTRINE?

[ChristB4us]

The “Rapture” Doctrine​

One of the most crushing arguments against the modern-day “Rapture” doctrine is 1st Corinthians 15. Of the 58 verses contained in this chapter, 85 percent of them deal with the resurrection. Yet, in all of these verses, not once does Paul allude to Jesus descending twice more. Listen to verse 23. “But each in his own turn: Christ, the first fruits; then, when he comes [referring to one advent], those who belong to him. Then the end will come.”​

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

In context, all men shall be made alive in Christ, but every man in his own order, ( you have turn per your Bible version ).

If you apply verse 23 as if there is only one time that men shall all be made alive in Christ. then where is the order as in your specific turn?

To apply it the way you did, there is no turn and there is no order.

Remember that Christ has already risen and so there is no point for Paul to mention Christ as that first order or first turn at all for how all men shall be made alive in Christ. Indeed, firstruits is plural and so referring to the pre great tribulation rapture event of Christ's firstfruits.

Then they that be Christ's at His coming will get their "turn" in that "order" as they will be resurrected after the great tribulation which is after the world's armies has been defeated per Revelation 19:11-21 & Satan is in the pit for a thousand years per Revelation 20:1-6.

That means Jesus is not meeting those saints in the air after having touched down on the Mount of Olives to do battle with the world's armies marching unto Jerusalem; Zechariah 14:1-5. Jesus is on earth after Satan is in the pit for a thousand years before that resurrection takes place.

It is cited "first" resurrection in Revelation for a reason; and it is not for being the actual first resurrection; but signifying that the resurrection after the great tribulation was to happen "first" before the rest of the dead are resurrected later on at the Great White Throne Judgment.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Verse 5 is John telling readers what he had meant by saying this first resurrection was to happen first; not denying the pre great tribulation rapture event for which Christ wanted John to warn the 7 churches to be ready or else get excommunicated as in cast into the bed of the coming great tribulation which will happen after that fiery calamity destroys a third of the earth for why the New World Order will come with the mark of the beast system.

Luke 21:33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. 34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. 35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

So there is an escape as it applies to the days we are living in now for saints will not be overcharged by the cares of this life when the beast is waging war on the saints to kill by the sword & hunger because they do not have the mark to buy & sell ( consequence for having the mark to buy & sell is the lake of fire, no matter what ). And so the warning to be ready as found abiding in Him & His words is now because Jesus is coming to judge His House first at the pre great tribulation rapture event for why he has John warning the churches for to be ready or else.

 

[Josheb]

Jesus does not descend for the rapture.

1 Thes. 4:16 says otherwise.

1 Thessalonians 4:16
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

.

Also, the word used for the end in Matthew 24 by the disciples speaks of the "complete" end. That is, the end of everything. They understood that everything will come to an end, and there would be a final judgement.

First, the text does not state they understood that to mean the end of everything. Second, the did not ask about the end of everything; the asked specifically and explicitly about the end of the age, NOT the end of everything. Third, the coming down of the new Jerusalem is not the end of everything and it comes after the final judgement.

Notice Jesus answer when the disciples asked Jesus if He would now return the kingdom to Israel. He didn't say, I'm not. He said it wasn't for them to know the times and seasons established by the Father. So not a no, but an indirect someday.

Jesus' return has nothing to do with returning the kingdom to Israel. God never wanted Israel to have an earthly king (1 Sam. 8) and He took that request to be a rejection of Him as their king. God appointing a human king did not and never will replace God as the only King that has ever existed. If Jesus is God, then there has never been a moment in all of creation when he was not also King! Jesus did say it was not for them to know the day or hour BUT he ALSO plainly stated the events described would occur in "this generation." BOTH temporal markers should be taken as a whole. I cannot now tell you the specific day and hour your son will graduate college, but I do know it will happen in this generation.


In other words, if the words of the cited scriptures are read exactly as written and not twisted by post-canonical man-made eschatologies, then there is not a single sentence in Post 59 that is correct. Jesus does descend to gather God's people. Jesus has always been King. The end of the age is not the end of everything.

Psalm 110:1
The LORD says to my Lord: "Sit at My right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet."


The Lord (Jesus) sits at the LORD's right hand until the LORD defeats all the Lord's enemies. In other words, The Lord does not come back in order to defeat his own enemies; he waits on the LORD to do that. He's not coming back before then. The Lord extends his scepter and rules in the midst of his enemies from his seat in heaven. The kings are shattered, and the nations judged and filled with corpses from his seat in heaven. His people volunteer freely from his seat in heaven. And anyone paying attention to what is actually stated in the book of Revelation will find there is not one explicitly mention of Jesus physically coming to earth until chapter 21. Nowhere in chapter 20 does the text ever explicitly state Jesus is physically on the earth.

He sits at his Father's right hand in heaven until all his enemies are defeated. Then he descends and the dead rise.

Revelation 21:1-5
Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea. And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them, and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away." And He who sits on the throne said, "Behold, I am making all things new."

.

 

[TMSO]

Jesus appears on the clouds, the dead are resurrected, and the saints rise to go out to welcome the Lord and descend with him back to earth (1 Th 4:16-17). It is called the parousia (2 Th 2:8, 1 Tim 64, 2 Tim 4:1, 8, Tit 2:13), and we see it illustrated in Jesus' entry into Jerusalem on Palm Sunday, where they went out to meet him and accompanied him back into the city.

There is no affirmation of anything but times and seasons in Jesus' response. Returning the kingdom to Israel is being read into his words.

Not at all. The disciples asked him if He would restore the kingdom of Israel at this time. He said that it isn't for the disciples to know the times and seasons established by the Father. His way of saying no, not at this time, but at the Father's time, and don't worry about it. You have enough to worry about when the Holy Spirit comes and you occupy yourselves with being God's witnesses in the local area, and throughout the whole world. Again, Jesus never said NO. He is telling them not at this time. It will be in the Father's time, and... don't worry about it. You have all this upcoming stuff to worry about.

 

[Eleanor]

Not at all. The disciples asked him if He would restore the kingdom of Israel at this time. He said that it isn't for the disciples to know the times and seasons established by the Father. His way of saying no, not at this time, but at the Father's time, and don't worry about it. You have enough to worry about when the Holy Spirit comes and you occupy yourselves with being God's witnesses in the local area, and throughout the whole world. Again, Jesus never said NO. He is telling them not at this time. It will be in the Father's time, and... don't worry about it. You have all this upcoming stuff to worry about.

Depends on how you understand the Scriptures

 

[Bob Carabbio]

HOW GENUINE IS THE "RAPTURE" DOCTRINE?​

Which "Authoritative, Bible based, Eschatological" speculation would you like???

Personally, I expect that Jesus will return, as they saw Him Go (Acts 1:11). That being God's WORD, I trust it.

Since "Eschatology is nothing but a "religious word" for "Rank Speculation", I consider NONE OF IT meaningful.

 

[EarlyActs]

How did he go? Explosions? Bolts of lasers?

 

[TMSO]

1 Thes. 4:16 says otherwise.

1 Thessalonians 4:16
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

So if the dead in Christ rise first, who rises next?

"15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive [l]and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a [m]shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive [n]and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord."

We meet the Lord in the air (so He doesn't come to Earth), and so (as such) we shall always be with the Lord. In the air. This is why it is claimed that this speaks of the rapture. This isn't His second coming.

First, the text does not state they understood that to mean the end of everything. Second, the did not ask about the end of everything; the asked specifically and explicitly about the end of the age, NOT the end of everything. Third, the coming down of the new Jerusalem is not the end of everything and it comes after the final judgement.

So, let's look up the words they used.

4930 [e]	συντελείας synteleias	of the consummation	N-GFS
3588 [e]	τοῦ tou	of the	Art-GMS
165 [e]	αἰῶνος; aiōnos	age?	N-GMS

Consummation. Complete end. synteleias.
"Cognate: 4930 syntéleia (from 4862 /sýn, "close together with" and 5055 /teléō, "complete, consummate") – culmination (completion), i.e. when the parts come together into a whole ("consummation") – "an end involving many parts" (B. F. Westcott). See 4931 (synteléō)."

What comes after the consummation? NHNE.

Jesus' return has nothing to do with returning the kingdom to Israel. God never wanted Israel to have an earthly king (1 Sam. 8) and He took that request to be a rejection of Him as their king. God appointing a human king did not and never will replace God as the only King that has ever existed. If Jesus is God, then there has never been a moment in all of creation when he was not also King! Jesus did say it was not for them to know the day or hour BUT he ALSO plainly stated the events described would occur in "this generation." BOTH temporal markers should be taken as a whole. I cannot now tell you the specific day and hour your son will graduate college, but I do know it will happen in this generation.

So with that God is unfaithful, and does not keep His promises. Understood. The reason why I say this is I have been on a reading binge of the Old Testament, and have seen the promises. And for some of these promises, God said it didn't matter if they followed Him or not, He would see it through. (One promise is specifically after the dedication of the temple, to Solomon.)

In other words, if the words of the cited scriptures are read exactly as written and not twisted by post-canonical man-made eschatologies, then there is not a single sentence in Post 59 that is correct. Jesus does descend to gather God's people. Jesus has always been King. The end of the age is not the end of everything.

Since I basically quoted what Jesus said in Post 59... I'll let you figure out what that means that you said about Jesus. This is what happens when you are over zealous for your belief, and not about truth. I also leave it up to you to figure out what the scroll with seven seals signifies. It is a symbol. A specific symbol, as used in Rome by some of the Caesars/rulers. It has a specific meaning in Revelation.

Psalm 110:1
The LORD says to my Lord: "Sit at My right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet."

The Lord (Jesus) sits at the LORD's right hand until the LORD defeats all the Lord's enemies. In other words, The Lord does not come back in order to defeat his own enemies; he waits on the LORD to do that. He's not coming back before then. The Lord extends his scepter and rules in the midst of his enemies from his seat in heaven. The kings are shattered, and the nations judged and filled with corpses from his seat in heaven. His people volunteer freely from his seat in heaven. And anyone paying attention to what is actually stated in the book of Revelation will find there is not one explicitly mention of Jesus physically coming to earth until chapter 21. Nowhere in chapter 20 does the text ever explicitly state Jesus is physically on the earth.

"11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords."

This is Revelation 19. There are so many very direct hints that this is Jesus coming to Earth to defeat the enemies the Father has gathered together in one place. He is called Faithful and True. He has many crowns. His name is a direct link back to John 1, the Word of God, the Logos, which was with God and was God. This is Jesus. And... it isn't Revelation 21 yet.

"
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh."

He sits at his Father's right hand in heaven until all his enemies are defeated. Then he descends and the dead rise.

Revelation 21:1-5
Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea. And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them, and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away." And He who sits on the throne said, "Behold, I am making all things new."

Who was sitting on the throne? The Father, right?

 

[Wordsmith]

So if the dead in Christ rise first, who rises next?

"15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive [l]and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a [m]shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive [n]and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord."

We meet the Lord in the air (so He doesn't come to Earth), and so (as such) we shall always be with the Lord. In the air. This is why it is claimed that this speaks of the rapture. This isn't His second coming.

Error.

The passage does not say we "shall always be with the Lord. In the air." That is your interpretation which is in error!

The Lord does not stay forever in the air! Other scriptures are clear He comes to this earth coming down through the air. We meet Him in the air and when He lands we will be with Him where He is which is right here on this earth we will be with Him.

THERE IS NO SCRIPTURE THAT SAYS THERE IS A RETURN TRIP TO HEAVEN!

If you find one please post it but do not add private interpretations to make it say what it does not.

 

[Josheb]

So if the dead in Christ rise first, who rises next?

"15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive [l]and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a [m]shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive [n]and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord."

We meet the Lord in the air (so He doesn't come to Earth), and so (as such) we shall always be with the Lord. In the air. This is why it is claimed that this speaks of the rapture. This isn't His second coming.

Do not waste either of our time with lengthy posts that do not stay on topic.

The answer two your question lies in the parable of the wheat and the weeds (Mt. 13). Verse 30 states,

Matthew 13:30
Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up; but gather the wheat into my barn."

Both tares and wheat, those dead in Christ, and those dead in sin are gathered.

You should 1) understand that the eschatology you post is an eschatology that was literally invented in the 19th century, and 2) read more diversely about the more historical and orthodox views. The modern futurism you believe is NOT anywhere near the most orthodox nor the most historical view of end times in Christian thought, doctrine, or practice. It is very popular but it is not historical or orthodox. You rendered the Thessalonian texts through your doctrine, not through other scripture. You posted Jesus does not descend. Scripture states Jesus descends. Rather than respond with, "Yes, Josh, I see that scripture does report Jesus descends and I will therefore adjust my view of the rapture accordingly," you doge the matter with an irrelevant question, "So if the dead in Christ rise first, who rises next?" and you do so wrongly imagining I'm not keeping track of the conversation, didn't notice the subterfuge, and won't call you on your cr@p (intended or not).

Now....

Do not change the subject. Your question was answered. Engage it and engage it op-relevantly. Jesus does descend. Say it. All are gathered. Say it.

 

[ChristB4us]

So if the dead in Christ rise first, who rises next?

"15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive [l]and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a [m]shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive [n]and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord."

We meet the Lord in the air (so He doesn't come to Earth), and so (as such) we shall always be with the Lord. In the air. This is why it is claimed that this speaks of the rapture. This isn't His second coming.

@Buff Scott Jr.

I agree with you, TMSO.

The irony is that Jesus is meeting those saints in the air after the O.T. saints are resurrected along with the deceased N.T. saints and the living saints found abiding In Him as His disciples.

BUT when it comes to the coming of the King of kings, He is to touch down on the Mount of Olives, splitting it in two to do battle with the world's armies marching unto Jerusalem in Zechariah 14:1-5 & He is bringing the pre great tribulation raptured saints with Him. This same battle in coming back with the raptured saints is seen in Revelation 19:11-21 after holding the Marriage Supper in Heaven with the raptured saints when it got closed for the Marriage Supper event in Revelation 19:1-10.

Now that the world's armies has been defeated in Revelation 19:11-21 and Satan is in the pit for a thousand years in Revelation 20:1-3, THEN that is when Jesus resurrects those saints that were not resurrected at the pre great tribulation rapture event and resurrect those living saints & former believers that get left behind along with new believers as a result of the everlasting gospel preached after the rapture that had died in the great tribulation in Revelation 20:4-6.

So Jesus is on earth after defeating the world's armies and Satan is in the pit for a thousand years before that resurrection took place which was called "first" to signify that was to happen first before the rest of the dead are resurrected later on. This was not the apostle John denying the pre great tribulation rapture at all when he had explained why he had called it the first resurrection in verse 5 as meaning that will happen "first".

 

[TMSO]

Do not waste either of our time with lengthy posts that do not stay on topic.

Apparently it is on topic, and this is just hot air to obfuscate.

The answer two your question lies in the parable of the wheat and the weeds (Mt. 13). Verse 30 states,

Matthew 13:30
Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up; but gather the wheat into my barn."

Both tares and wheat, those dead in Christ, and those dead in sin are gathered.

See and hear thee now, the explanation of Christ of the parable:
"36 Then He left the crowds and went into the house. And His disciples came to Him and said, “Explain to us the parable of the [t]tares of the field.” 37 And He said, “The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man, 38 and the field is the world; and as for the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil one; 39 and the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is the [u]end of the age; and the reapers are angels. 40 So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the [v]end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom [w]all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, 42 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, [x]let him hear."

Ah, that is why you didn't mention it. Notice "end" of the age uses the exact same wording as Matthew 24. The consummation of the age. The end of everything.

is the end	συντέλεια (sunteleia)	4930: a joint payment (for public service), joint action, spec. completion	from sunteleó
of the age;	αἰῶνος (aiōnos)	165: a space of time, an age	from a prim. root appar. mean. continued duration

sunteleia. The same exact word the disciples used in Matthew 24.

and of the end	συντελείας (sunteleias)	4930: a joint payment (for public service), joint action, spec. completion	from sunteleó
of the age?"	αἰῶνος (aiōnos)	165: a space of time, an age	from a prim. root appar. mean. continued duration

You should 1) understand that the eschatology you post is an eschatology that was literally invented in the 19th century, and 2) read more diversely about the more historical and orthodox views.

I have. The most historical is premillennialism which came out of the 1st century church. The other belief that came out of the 1st century church is outright heresy, because it comes from a heretical gospel. They believed that there would be no millennium, and no physical return of Jesus to Earth, because Jesus never came to Earth physically in the first place. It was all spiritual. It was the biggest heresy of the day. Marcion's heresy. Even worse than nestorianism.

The modern futurism you believe is NOT anywhere near the most orthodox nor the most historical view of end times in Christian thought, doctrine, or practice. It is very popular but it is not historical or orthodox. You rendered the Thessalonian texts through your doctrine, not through other scripture. You posted Jesus does not descend. Scripture states Jesus descends. Rather than respond with, "Yes, Josh, I see that scripture does report Jesus descends and I will therefore adjust my view of the rapture accordingly," you doge the matter with an irrelevant question, "So if the dead in Christ rise first, who rises next?" and you do so wrongly imagining I'm not keeping track of the conversation, didn't notice the subterfuge, and won't call you on your cr@p (intended or not).

All the passages you give are filtered through your beliefs, and ignore other scripture completely. In Thessalonians, it is not believed that Jesus descends at that time. It is the rapture, of which you can read from some guy in the 5th/6th century. Jesus descends in Revelation 19, when He comes to destroy the armies of the beast and his image. It just also happens to be the time that He gathers His elect... the first resurrection, right before the millennium. And if you read Revelation 19-20, you will find that I gave you a straight rendition, without adding anything to it. I could remove what I wrote, and just post the verses, and you won't find a difference. In fact, here you go:
"
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war. 12 His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems; and He has a name written on Him which no one knows except Himself. 13 He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses. 15 From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will [d]rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the [e]wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty. 16 And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, “KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”

17 Then I saw [f]an angel standing in the sun, and he cried out with a loud voice, saying to all the birds which fly in midheaven, “Come, assemble for the great supper of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings and the flesh of [g]commanders and the flesh of mighty men and the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them and the flesh of all men, both free men and slaves, and small and great.”

19 And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies assembled to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army."

To show He is actually on Earth, which would be a/the second coming: "21 And the rest were killed with the sword which came from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh."

"4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of [b]their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection."

So please tell me, does scripture really tell us that Jesus is coming back three times or more? Or is there just a second coming?

Now....

Do not change the subject. Your question was answered. Engage it and engage it op-relevantly. Jesus does descend. Say it. All are gathered. Say it.

Try to make Thessalonians fit Revelation 20 without changing a single word. Without adding any explanation. Without removing a single word from Revelation 20, or Thessalonians. Then, still without changing anything, show how they are the same event.

 

[TMSO]

@Buff Scott Jr.

I agree with you, TMSO.

The irony is that Jesus is meeting those saints in the air after the O.T. saints are resurrected along with the deceased N.T. saints and the living saints found abiding In Him as His disciples.

All alive in the church will not precede those who are dead. The question I would have is, should this be considered a resurrection? In Revelation 20, John says he sees the souls of those from the tribulation. (Persecuted and killed for their testimony, etc.) I believe this is on Earth, where they the live again and reign with Christ on Earth for the millennium. However, in I Thessalonians, it just seems as though those souls in heaven are getting their glorified bodies, but not living again on Earth, but in heaven. The event in Revelation 20 for these who died in the tribulation, is called the first resurrection. So what would Thessalonians be? (I am not asking as though I have an answer, or the answer. What good is discussion if we believe we have the absolute answer? Who will learn anything without give and take?

BUT when it comes to the coming of the King of kings, He is to touch down on the Mount of Olives, splitting it in two to do battle with the world's armies marching unto Jerusalem in Zechariah 14:1-5 & He is bringing the pre great tribulation raptured saints with Him. This same battle in coming back with the raptured saints is seen in Revelation 19:11-21 after holding the Marriage Supper in Heaven with the raptured saints when it got closed for the Marriage Supper event in Revelation 19:1-10.

I absolutely believe that Zechariah 12-14 has much to do with Christ second coming. The only difference I have is that I believe that this is part of His world tour. His first stop is saving Jerusalem by destroying His enemies. His next stop is being seen by the whole world. Then His personal visit to His people. (Granted, I threw that together with a little thought, but hopefully you see my considerations and understand.)

Now that the world's armies has been defeated in Revelation 19:11-21 and Satan is in the pit for a thousand years in Revelation 20:1-3, THEN that is when Jesus resurrects those saints that were not resurrected at the pre great tribulation rapture event and resurrect those living saints & former believers that get left behind along with new believers as a result of the everlasting gospel preached after the rapture that had died in the great tribulation in Revelation 20:4-6.

I differ here, but I don't think it is a disagreement. I just view the available information a little differently. If Revelation says that this is the first resurrection, I don't see any room to call for a pre first resurrection resurrection. I think I explained what I see as a rational explanation for why Thessalonians may not rise up to the level of resurrection in John's terms. Is it possible that they don't see full resurrection until the second resurrection for judgement? (Where their name shows up in the book, and they move on?) All this to say that there may be a rational thought process that doesn't run contrary to scripture, so simply a difference of opinion, not a straight up disagreement.

So Jesus is on earth after defeating the world's armies and Satan is in the pit for a thousand years before that resurrection took place which was called "first" to signify that was to happen first before the rest of the dead are resurrected later on. This was not the apostle John denying the pre great tribulation rapture at all when he had explained why he had called it the first resurrection in verse 5 as meaning that will happen "first".

And that is another rational explanation. My only issue in consideration is that John specifically defines who are in the first resurrection, and states that everyone else does not come back to life until after the millennium. That is beyond even post trib rapture at that point. So, to ensure I state it so understood, since these who rise up to meet Jesus in the air are not coming back to life to live on Earth, does it rise up to the level of "resurrection" at this time? As far as the world is concerned, they are not technically alive. Perhaps their actual resurrection to a life that can live on Earth, will happen at the second resurrection? (Again, this is put forward only for consideration. I have not actually thought it through like this before. It's not like it has any easy answer...)

 

[jeremiah1five]

I agree the Lord will come as Scripture states, "in like manner" in Acts 1:11.

10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven. Acts 1:9–11.

I don't see as according to the classic theology of a "rapture" that in His ascension Jesus rose, stayed in the air for 3 1/2 years, and then left to go to His Father. It makes no sense. It is understood that there words "in like manner" means "the same way."

The idea of the rapture gained popularity in the 19th and early 20th centuries, particularly through the teachings of John Nelson Darby, an influential figure in the development of dispensationalism. Darby was a leader in the Plymouth Brethren movement and is often credited with popularizing the pre-tribulation rapture view, which suggests that the rapture will occur before a period of tribulation described in the Bible.

Another point to be considered is the belief that while in this world we as individuals and corporately go through suffering and trials and tribulation in our lives, which according to the bible, God uses to purify the Church (and I am speaking of the Gentile Church which came into being predominantly after the destruction of the Jewish Temple thus ending the "ism" of Judaism.)

For the most part, if there is no "rapture" of Gentile believers then they will go through the Time of Jacob's Trouble along with Israel and suffer as believers in Christ with no avenue of escaping the tribulation that is to come upon the world. There are many aspects of end time eschatology that are affected by such a removal of believers from the world at a critical time when all believers (Jew and non-Jew) who have Jesus as Lord and Savior should experience tribulation and suffering together as one people instead of being "caught up" and escaping the purification process. This is definitely a subject worth investigating as we today see prophecy being fulfilled before our very eyes with regard to Israel and their existence.

 

[Wordsmith]

All alive in the church will not precede those who are dead. The question I would have is, should this be considered a resurrection? In Revelation 20, John says he sees the souls of those from the tribulation. (Persecuted and killed for their testimony, etc.) I believe this is on Earth, where they the live again and reign with Christ on Earth for the millennium. However, in I Thessalonians, it just seems as though those souls in heaven are getting their glorified bodies, but not living again on Earth, but in heaven. The event in Revelation 20 for these who died in the tribulation, is called the first resurrection. So what would Thessalonians be? (I am not asking as though I have an answer, or the answer. What good is discussion if we believe we have the absolute answer? Who will learn anything without give and take?

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Those that refuse the mark live and reign with Christ 1000 years. I would submit these were either resurrected or glorified at Christs return at the end of the tribulation.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.

I will submit that these are those that had no part in the first resurrection at Christs return at the end of the tribulation. To Include the wicked dead and any mortal who died in the 1000 year reign,

This is the first resurrection.

If we tie this phrase to the resurrection at the end of the 1000 years that creates a problem with timing.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

This verse clearly tells us that those who have part in the first resurrection reign with Christ for 1000 years so the first resurrection must be before the 1000 years and at the return of Christ at the end of the tribulation not at the end of the 1000 years.

IMO it makes mores sense to tie "This is the first resurrection" to verse 6 and not verse 5. I believe in the original manuscripts there were no verse separations that was all added later.


John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Question, are the righteous and the wicked resurrected at the same Time? I would say no based on Revelation 20

Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Those found "written in the Book" will be "delivered" resurrected after the tribulation at Christs return.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Again I submit the wicked dead are raised at the end of the 1000 years per Revelation 20.


Matthew 24 mentions the gathering of the elect at His return after the tribulation but does not mention the wicked dead Revelation 20 does.

1 Corinthians 15 mentions those that are Christ's raised but not the wicked dead. Revelation 20 does.

1 Thessalonians 4 mentions the dead in Christ being raised but not the wicked dead, Revelation 20 does.

I see no scripture to support anyone getting a glorified body while in heaven or ever being in heaven with a glorified body with the single exception being Jesus, who is there now in His glorified body.

 

[ChristB4us]

All alive in the church will not precede those who are dead. The question I would have is, should this be considered a resurrection? In Revelation 20, John says he sees the souls of those from the tribulation. (Persecuted and killed for their testimony, etc.) I believe this is on Earth, where they the live again and reign with Christ on Earth for the millennium. However, in I Thessalonians, it just seems as though those souls in heaven are getting their glorified bodies, but not living again on Earth, but in heaven. The event in Revelation 20 for these who died in the tribulation, is called the first resurrection. So what would Thessalonians be? (I am not asking as though I have an answer, or the answer. What good is discussion if we believe we have the absolute answer? Who will learn anything without give and take?

Well, let us address Revelation 20 then for how it describes those of that particular resurrection as the ones that went through the great tribulation.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

You should include all those descriptions for why those "dead" saints that were not resurrected at the pre great tribulation rapture as well as the living left behind saints that went through the great tribulation are the ones being resurrected.

I may be wrong about the dead saints that were not resurrected at the pre great tribulation rapture event, but yet they did not worshipped the beast, nor his image, nor his mark upon their foreheads or in their hands since they were deceased but left behind...and I see this inquiry as if from those that were not resurrected at the pre great tribulation rapture event below;

Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

I am open to any exchange or correction on that issue as I find it difficult to believe those not resurrected at the rapture event and neither after the great tribulation, would have to wait until the Great White Throne Judgment.

Paul as led by the Holy Spirit, described the vessels unto dishonor as vessels of wood and earth that did not depart from iniquity for why I believe they would also be resurrected after the great tribulation in serving the King of kings on earth; indeed it explains Matthew 5:19 where the least that are of that kingdom of heaven were the ones that had taught to break the least f His commandments for why they are the leasts.

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

Matthew 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

The firstfruits of the resurrection will be made like& even higher than the angels that never marry nor can they ever die.

Luke 20:34 And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage: 35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: 36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

So those resurrected after the great tribulation has to be all the saints that were disqualified for why the power of the second death was not over them but yet inferring the power of the first death still does hence physical death for why they and the generations following them has to eat from the tree of life in Jerusalem for the healing of the nations.

So by combining all these scriptures to get a bigger picture, is why I include those that were not resurrected at the pre great tribulation raptured event to be resurrected also after the great tribulation even though Revelation 20:4 seems specific of describing those that went through the great tribulation..

 

[ChristB4us]

I absolutely believe that Zechariah 12-14 has much to do with Christ second coming. The only difference I have is that I believe that this is part of His world tour. His first stop is saving Jerusalem by destroying His enemies. His next stop is being seen by the whole world. Then His personal visit to His people. (Granted, I threw that together with a little thought, but hopefully you see my considerations and understand.)

I believe the whole world will see the sign of the Son of man at the pre great tribulation rapture event. It will be followed by the angel with the everlasting gospel spreading it to all the world and then the end of the world as we presently know it, will come with a third of the earth getting burned up with the fall of Babylon ( USA ) for why a New World order will come about for the rest of the 2/3rds parts of the world and the mark of the beast system for pooling resources to survive after that fiery calamity. Then the third angel warns everyone of the consequence which is the lake of fire for taking the mark of the beast to buy & sell to survive in that coming New World Order.

Those 3 angels sets up the hour of temptation that shall try all remaining on the earth as everyone will have heard the gospel and everyone will know the consequence for taking the mark and that is the lake of fire. That is the temptation that shall try all upon the earth.

My sharing this is to show the obviousness of His appearing as being global and yet because of that fiery calamity and the temptation to survive in that coming New World Order is why it is that hour of temptations; they will know the truth, but how will they choose?

 

[ChristB4us]

I differ here, but I don't think it is a disagreement. I just view the available information a little differently. If Revelation says that this is the first resurrection, I don't see any room to call for a pre first resurrection resurrection. I think I explained what I see as a rational explanation for why Thessalonians may not rise up to the level of resurrection in John's terms. Is it possible that they don't see full resurrection until the second resurrection for judgement? (Where their name shows up in the book, and they move on?) All this to say that there may be a rational thought process that doesn't run contrary to scripture, so simply a difference of opinion, not a straight up disagreement.

Well, hopefully my earlier explanation of the difference between the firstfruits of the resurrection being like the angels that never die nor marry would indicate how those after resurrected after the great tribulation can still die for why they need the tree of life and why they will be marrying since that is where the future generations will be coming from.

Although those resurrected after the great tribulation are not in danger of the second death, the generations following them, will be. It is hard to imagine how Satan being released from the pit after a thousand years can mislead and turn so many of that generation to join him for one last rebellion, but Satan did and God allowed it. Why? I can only guess this is His answer that even in a perfect world, good people can doubt God's words like Adam did and sin by not believing God's word but the devil's word.

So if someone ever had a thought about what if we had a perfect world and everybody was good, how can any sin come about? When people doubt God's word and wonder what is outside the will of God. We know there is nothing good, but that generation will know the hard way as I am certain many seeing Christ as the King of kings and God, would run the risk of being condemned to the lake of fire with Satan.

Not sure if any will repent and leave that army before Satan attacks with that army but supposedly the army will be as many as the sand of the sea.

Anyway, there is a difference in the eternal inheritance of the two kinds of vessels in the House of God. Those who remain loyal to Christ from that millennium generation as well as those raised after the great tribulation, will see that hell and death is cast into the lake of fire at the Great white Throne Judgment for which I believe then, that they can never die any more after that live with God forever as knowing no one will doubt the Word of God again to sin against Him and be separated from Him in that wise any more.

 

[ChristB4us]

And that is another rational explanation. My only issue in consideration is that John specifically defines who are in the first resurrection, and states that everyone else does not come back to life until after the millennium. That is beyond even post trib rapture at that point. So, to ensure I state it so understood, since these who rise up to meet Jesus in the air are not coming back to life to live on Earth, does it rise up to the level of "resurrection" at this time? As far as the world is concerned, they are not technically alive. Perhaps their actual resurrection to a life that can live on Earth, will happen at the second resurrection? (Again, this is put forward only for consideration. I have not actually thought it through like this before. It's not like it has any easy answer...)

John explained what he had meant by the term first resurrection as that resurrection after the great tribulation was to happen first before the rest of the dead are raised at the Great White Throne Judgment in Revelation 20:5

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

So all John meant by first resurrection was that this particular resurrection was to happen first before the resurrection at the Great white Throne Judgment. John was not inferring there was no pre great tribulation rapture event where there was a resurrection of the firstfruits.

Those that partake of the first fruits of the resurrection at the pre great tribulation rapture event are the inhabitants of that City of God in Heaven that will come down from Heaven for God to dwell among men.

 

[TMSO]

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Those that refuse the mark live and reign with Christ 1000 years. I would submit these were either resurrected or glorified at Christs return at the end of the tribulation.

I thought I had already submitted that...Oh well.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.

I will submit that these are those that had no part in the first resurrection at Christs return at the end of the tribulation. To Include the wicked dead and any mortal who died in the 1000 year reign,

At the end of the millennium. All who have ever lived, to include those who died in the 1000 year reign, who were not resurrected in the first resurrection, will not miss the second/final resurrection at the final judgement at the end of the millennium.

This is the first resurrection.

If we tie this phrase to the resurrection at the end of the 1000 years that creates a problem with timing.

Why? If there is a first resurrection, there is a second resurrection (or more). The resurrection at the end of the 1000 years would be the second resurrection, and the resurrection to judgement.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

This verse clearly tells us that those who have part in the first resurrection reign with Christ for 1000 years so the first resurrection must be before the 1000 years and at the return of Christ at the end of the tribulation not at the end of the 1000 years.

The SECOND resurrection is at the end of the millennium. The first resurrection is at the end of the tribulation, at the start of the millennium.

IMO it makes mores sense to tie "This is the first resurrection" to verse 6 and not verse 5. I believe in the original manuscripts there were no verse separations that was all added later.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

This would be the final resurrection at judgement.

Question, are the righteous and the wicked resurrected at the same Time? I would say no based on Revelation 20

That depends. I believe in a rapture, so all who are left before the tribulation are the wicked. Then the tribulation, out of which comes the first resurrection, and then the millennium and final resurrection to judgement. That final resurrection could be both, since it is to judgement, and you have the resurrection of life, and resurrection of damnation. (All based on whose name is or is not in His book.)

Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Those found "written in the Book" will be "delivered" resurrected after the tribulation at Christs return.

Revelation has already defined these as those who died in the tribulation. Everyone else resurrects after the millennium.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Again I submit the wicked dead are raised at the end of the 1000 years per Revelation 20.

The resurrection before the 1000 years is already defined as those who died in the tribulation that belonged to Christ.

Matthew 24 mentions the gathering of the elect at His return after the tribulation but does not mention the wicked dead Revelation 20 does.

However, it may be possible that those righteous who died in the 1000 years are a part of the final resurrection.

1 Corinthians 15 mentions those that are Christ's raised but not the wicked dead. Revelation 20 does.

1 Thessalonians 4 mentions the dead in Christ being raised but not the wicked dead, Revelation 20 does.

I see no scripture to support anyone getting a glorified body while in heaven or ever being in heaven with a glorified body with the single exception being Jesus, who is there now in His glorified body.

That is nuance. If a rapture occurs, then there will be people in heaven with a glorified body at that translation. Not a resurrection, but a translation. Another possibility is, that it is only the souls until the final resurrection.

 

[TMSO]

Well, let us address Revelation 20 then for how it describes those of that particular resurrection as the ones that went through the great tribulation.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

You should include all those descriptions for why those "dead" saints that were not resurrected at the pre great tribulation rapture as well as the living left behind saints that went through the great tribulation are the ones being resurrected.

I may be wrong about the dead saints that were not resurrected at the pre great tribulation rapture event, but yet they did not worshipped the beast, nor his image, nor his mark upon their foreheads or in their hands since they were deceased but left behind...and I see this inquiry as if from those that were not resurrected at the pre great tribulation rapture event below;

Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

I am open to any exchange or correction on that issue as I find it difficult to believe those not resurrected at the rapture event and neither after the great tribulation, would have to wait until the Great White Throne Judgment.

I don't know that the rapture event is a resurrection. Also, to be resurrected at a rapture event, you would need to be dead. And, I just toss that in, it's a good thing God doesn't ask us how to do things. So your difficulty means nothing to him, and to be honest, why should you have that difficulty. Hebrews says that it is appointed man once to die then judgement. That is after the millennium. Those who die for Him in the tribulation get resurrected early for this, and, as show, have already been judged as righteous. The second death cannot touch them. And they get to reign with Christ for a thousand years, because of what they did.

Paul as led by the Holy Spirit, described the vessels unto dishonor as vessels of wood and earth that did not depart from iniquity for why I believe they would also be resurrected after the great tribulation in serving the King of kings on earth; indeed it explains Matthew 5:19 where the least that are of that kingdom of heaven were the ones that had taught to break the least f His commandments for why they are the leasts.

I don't see this changing anything. We already have the rapture for all the righteous before the tribulation, so they aren't even here to be resurrected.

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

Again, nothing about resurrection here, or anything at all about what happens in the end.

Matthew 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

The firstfruits of the resurrection will be made like& even higher than the angels that never marry nor can they ever die.

Luke 20:34 And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage: 35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: 36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

So those resurrected after the great tribulation has to be all the saints that were disqualified for why the power of the second death was not over them but yet inferring the power of the first death still does hence physical death for why they and the generations following them has to eat from the tree of life in Jerusalem for the healing of the nations.

So by combining all these scriptures to get a bigger picture, is why I include those that were not resurrected at the pre great tribulation raptured event to be resurrected also after the great tribulation even though Revelation 20:4 seems specific of describing those that went through the great tribulation..

Again, I am not sure the rapture is a resurrection. It may just be everyone's souls in heaven until after the millennium. I mean, if there was a resurrection before the first resurrection, then the first resurrection isn't first anymore. Note how those in the first ressurrection were only souls until John says they lived again. (Meaning, now resurrected with new bodies.)