How does the Devil find out what we are thinking?

[makesends]

BIG "IF". The devil isn't "Locked up", and on;y a certain selection of Angels are. evil spirits and demonic entities have free access to us. READ THE BIBLE in context, and that's a;; obvious. In your post youve already told the demonic hoards that you don't have a CLUE what's really going on, and they'll use it against you as they see fit.

Apparently you didn't read who I responded to. My post was a hypothetical; it was propositional logic, working off of what had been posited by someone else. I'm not the one who said the devil is 'locked up'.

The demonic hoards are going to be disappointed to find there is only a clueless strawman to work on.

 

[makesends]

It might be worth doing a study on just what the devil can do, according to Scripture. There are general statements made, and a few examples of specific incidents, such as a lying spirit in the mouths of the prophets of Baal, that might give good direction here. But I'd be careful to deny that the devil does work to tempt us, or to define just what is the depth of his ability, by reasoning alone.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

It might be worth doing a study on just what the devil can do, according to Scripture. There are general statements made, and a few examples of specific incidents, such as a lying spirit in the mouths of the prophets of Baal, that might give good direction here. But I'd be careful to deny that the devil does work to tempt us, or to define just what is the depth of his ability, by reasoning alone.

The "temptation" comes from OUR LUST, and the Devil supplies the "Enticement".

 

[makesends]

The "temptation" comes from OUR LUST, and the Devil supplies the "Enticement".

I agree with that. But that does not mean that the Devil does not tempt.

You are conceiving a physical structure of matters beyond our ken.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

I agree with that. But that does not mean that the Devil does not tempt.

You are conceiving a physical structure of matters beyond our ken.

Whatever that even means -

The devil entices based on WHAT he knows of our own LUST. He doesn'r "entice me with alcohol, because he knows I have no interest in it. And he doesn't bother to entice me any longer about SMOKING, since, even though that was a handle that worked before, it doesn't now.

 

[Arial]

Whatever that even means -

The devil entices based on WHAT he knows of our own LUST. He doesn'r "entice me with alcohol, because he knows I have no interest in it. And he doesn't bother to entice me any longer about SMOKING, since, even though that was a handle that worked before, it doesn't now.

That isn't the devil enticing or not enticing you, or what he does or does not know about you. That is simply alcohol being present and it doesn't interest you. The reason it does not tempt you is because you have no desire for it.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Whatever that even means -

That isn't the devil enticing or not enticing you, or what he does or does not know about you. That is simply alcohol being present and it doesn't interest you. The reason it does not tempt you is because you have no desire for it.

Yup, and the devil KNOWS that about me, so doesn't waste his time on dead-ends. Unfortunately he also knows where MY LUSTS are, and what triggers 'em.

 

[Arial]

Yup, and the devil KNOWS that about me, so doesn't waste his time on dead-ends. Unfortunately he also knows where MY LUSTS are, and what triggers 'em.

Your lusts and temptations are in you. Not outside of you. Do you really think the devil---who is not omniscient or omnipresent---runs around tempting people? He is one singular created creature.

 

[makesends]

makesends said:
You are conceiving a physical structure of matters beyond our ken.

Whatever that even means -

It's something like applying physical law to metaphysical fact. It doesn't work.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Your lusts and temptations are in you.

Yup - the Bible agrees - my problems are is MY OWN personal collection of LUSTS

Not outside of you. Do you really think the devil---who is not omniscient or omnipresent---runs around tempting people? He is one singular created creature.

The "enticement", however is external. And the devil has legions of entities who take pleasure in pushing our buttons, and plenty of human assistance in doing so.

 

[Arial]

The "enticement", however is external. And the devil has legions of entities who take pleasure in pushing our buttons, and plenty of human assistance in doing so.

Not necessarily. The alcoholic isn't only enticed to drink by the presence of alcohol. He desires the alcohol and goes and gets it.

You give way too much credit and power to the devil and his minions. It is our sinful nature that desires sin, not the devil who manipulates and torments us. It is us, us, us. That is why WE are the ones who must be redeemed.

 

[Josheb]

Yup - the Bible agrees - my problems are is MY OWN personal collection of LUSTS

Yep

The "enticement", however is external. And the devil has legions of entities who take pleasure in pushing our buttons, and plenty of human assistance in doing so.

Not necessarily. The alcoholic isn't only enticed to drink by the presence of alcohol. He desires the alcohol and goes and gets it.

You give way too much credit and power to the devil and his minions. It is our sinful nature that desires sin, not the devil who manipulates and torments us. It is us, us, us. That is why WE are the ones who must be redeemed.

James 1 makes it quite clear the enticements are, in fact, internal. Each one is tempted by his own lusts. It is those lusts, or desires, that drag us away and entice us. Furthermore, the number of devils and minions is finite, and they do not reproduce the way humans do. There is nothing in scripture to indicate there are more than seven billion devils, and if they were we know all of them are bound in eternal bonds of darkness and, therefore, not "free agents," AND those that possess humans do so two, three, seven or more at a time in just one person. They do not spread themselves out in a one-to-one ration.

 

[makesends]

Yup - the Bible agrees - my problems are is MY OWN personal collection of LUSTS

The "enticement", however is external. And the devil has legions of entities who take pleasure in pushing our buttons, and plenty of human assistance in doing so.

While I tend to agree with this, I don't like the term "enticement" as you seem to use loosely, there. That is, according to James, "each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed.", so that, I think, you could use a better word for your point.

I agree with you in that the devil is very heavily involved in tempting and otherwise doing whatever he can to disrupt and ruin, drag down, stall and whatever else he considers to oppose the work of God. (And I think it is more insidious than that! He seeks to devour us! And I wouldn't get in a hurry to try to explain just what that means, either!) I don't think we know the depth nor limits of ability he has, nor the function to what God has put him, and it may be dangerous to assume too much there. We cannot blame the devil for our sin, however —it is our sin. And we do know that he can do nothing that God restrains him from doing! But, happily, there is more to it than that —we can know that the Devil can only do what God, one way or another, has set up for him to be "enticed" to do!

There are many references, as you know, concerning what Satan does and how he tempts ("entices", even!). But to say that he cannot know our thoughts is something I have not read in scripture, though I think it is obvious he doesn't know everything we think. It seems he can speak his lies to us personally, and can use human beings to do so.

 

[makesends]

Yep

James 1 makes it quite clear the enticements are, in fact, internal. Each one is tempted by his own lusts. It is those lusts, or desires, that drag us away and entice us. Furthermore, the number of devils and minions is finite, and they do not reproduce the way humans do. There is nothing in scripture to indicate there are more than seven billion devils, and if they were we know all of them are bound in eternal bonds of darkness and, therefore, not "free agents," AND those that possess humans do so two, three, seven or more at a time in just one person. They do not spread themselves out in a one-to-one ration.

Yet, "you are of your father the devil" seems to indicate rather an intimate knowledge the devil has concerning 'his children'.

 

[Josheb]

Yet, "you are of your father the devil" seems to indicate rather an intimate knowledge the devil has concerning 'his children'.

The context of Jesus' words is not biology or genetics, but sin and lie(s). Satan's lies do not come from someplace external to Satan. Neither do the lies of a human liar. I remind everyone that Satan sinned and therefore, is just as dead and just as enslaved by sin and to sin as any other sinner, angelic or human. He does what sins makes of him, just as every single human sinner does what sin makes of the human..... inside the sinner. Satan, nor none of the devil and minions, are free agents, and none of the sinfully dead and enslaved finite creatures can read minds.

 

[makesends]

The context of Jesus' words is not biology or genetics, but sin and lie(s). Satan's lies do not come from someplace external to Satan. Neither do the lies of a human liar. I remind everyone that Satan sinned and therefore, is just as dead and just as enslaved by sin and to sin as any other sinner, angelic or human. He does what sins makes of him, just as every single human sinner does what sin makes of the human..... inside the sinner. Satan, nor none of the devil and minions, are free agents, and none of the sinfully dead and enslaved finite creatures can read minds.

Do you have scripture to demonstrate your assertion that "none of the sinfully dead and enslaved finite creatures can read minds"? Or, lacking scripture to that effect, do you have a logical narrative to show it? (BTW, for what it's worth, I tend to agree with you about that.)

 

[Josheb]

Do you have scripture to demonstrate your assertion that "none of the sinfully dead and enslaved finite creatures can read minds"? Or, lacking scripture to that effect, do you have a logical narrative to show it? (BTW, for what it's worth, I tend to agree with you about that.)

I can offer a more detailed reply later but I have to go. For now, give the following a perusal: What Does the Bible Say About Mind Readers. and her at GotQuestions. The ability to read others' minds is one only God (the Creator of the creature's mind) is shown to possess.

 

[makesends]

I can offer a more detailed reply later but I have to go. For now, give the following a perusal: What Does the Bible Say About Mind Readers. and her at GotQuestions. The ability to read others' minds is one only God (the Creator of the creature's mind) is shown to possess.

Thanks. Out of the many verses quoted there in your linked reference, a quick perusal gave me only one that seems relevant —concerning the rest, I think I could have come up with several more to-the-point— and that one was 1 Kings 8:39, I quote the NIV here, and the underlined is my emphasis, "then hear in heaven where You are. Forgive, and act. Give to each the pay he has earned by all his ways. You know his heart. You alone know the hearts of all the children of men."

But that doesn't say that the devil cannot read minds to some extent, but only that God alone knows the heart.

BTW, I tend to think of how God "knows" in that reference, the same way as I deal with "foreknow", in that for God to know is to cause, or it is a result of his intentional causing. It is a very involved and even intimate thing, and nothing like whatever knowledge the devil may (or may not) have concerning our thoughts/minds.

This is to me a very interesting discussion and I'd like to see it continued, maybe in another thread on Hamartiology. The devil is, as you said, also enslaved by his own sin, yet he is the original sinner.

 

[Josheb]

Thanks. Out of the many verses quoted there in your linked reference, a quick perusal gave me only one that seems relevant —concerning the rest, I think I could have come up with several more to-the-point— and that one was 1 Kings 8:39, I quote the NIV here, and the underlined is my emphasis, "then hear in heaven where You are. Forgive, and act. Give to each the pay he has earned by all his ways. You know his heart. You alone know the hearts of all the children of men."

But that doesn't say that the devil cannot read minds to some extent, but only that God alone knows the heart.

BTW, I tend to think of how God "knows" in that reference, the same way as I deal with "foreknow", in that for God to know is to cause, or it is a result of his intentional causing. It is a very involved and even intimate thing, and nothing like whatever knowledge the devil may (or may not) have concerning our thoughts/minds.

This is to me a very interesting discussion and I'd like to see it continued, maybe in another thread on Hamartiology. The devil is, as you said, also enslaved by his own sin, yet he is the original sinner.

Got a little more time now.

My first response is to note the shifting onus nature of the inquiry. Where has the op (or any other poster in this thread) proved the devil can read minds? That is the thesis implicitly asserted in the op, so you should be asking the op to prove that premise, not asking others to prove its antithesis. There is no obligation on anyone to 1) disprove an unsubstantiated claim, 2) prove any alternative to an unsubstantiated claim, or 3) allow any attempt at shifting the burden away from the responsibility of the affirmative position (in this case, the premise the devil finds out what we are thinking). So.....

No shifting onuses for you.

Next, it is very clear that scripture asserts the thought-knowing ability of God (Father and Son), the Creator of all creatures, and is silent on any other created (finite) creature possessing that ability. For who among people knows the thoughts of a person except the spirit of the person that is in him (1 Cor. 2:11)? The correct answer to that question (whether read literally or rhetorically) is a decided "No one!" Elsewhere we read,

Psalm 94:11
The LORD knows human thoughts, that they are mere breath.

This is important because the tendency to say, "The argument built on scripture's not explicitly stating the devil cannot read minds..... and any argument to the contrary is an argument from silence," proves incorrect because scripture is not silent. Scripture asserts divine ability. Divine ability: YES! Sinner's ability? Silence. However, it turns out scripture isn't wholly silent on the part of the sinful creature. As far as what scripture states about one person knowing another's thoughts, there is...

Proverbs 14:10
The heart knows its own bitterness, and a stranger does not share its joy.

A stranger cannot know another person's heart in either its bitterness or joy. In fact, to the degree that a person's thoughts are part of or a component of his or her heart, Jeremiah makes it abundantly clear sin has caused a deceitful effect on the ability of an individual to know and understand his own thoughts.

Jeremiah 17:9
The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked; Who can know it?

The answer, again, is "No one!" What the unregenerate person understands is his own sinfulness and even that is obscured. All of the above changes for the Spirit indwelt, born anew, regenerate person whose salvific faith is in Christ because for that person scripture states something much different. Paul, for example, speaking of the wisdom of God revealed in Christ wrote,

Romans 11:33-36 ESV
Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways! For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been his counselor? Or who has given a gift to him that he might be repaid?” For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen.

and...

1 Corinthians 2:9-16 ESV
But, as it is written, “What no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man imagined, what God has prepared for those who love him” - these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God. For who knows a person’s thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God. And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual. The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one. For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ.

The saved person has the Spirit of God that knows the mind of God, and God knows the thoughts of every individual (and humanity collectively), so while it is conceivably possible for God's Spirit to reveal the thoughts of another person to you or me, the purpose of all this Spirit-enabled power of knowledge, wisdom, and understanding is for the individual's self-knowledge in Christ, his/her edification and sanctification, NOT for us to go around presuming to read others' minds.

Psalm 139:4
Even before there is a word on my tongue, behold, LORD, You know it all.


I am, however, completely open to reading the case made for the premise the disobedient and therefore sin-enslaved and sinfully dead devil possesses that ability .

 

[makesends]

Got a little more time now.

My first response is to note the shifting onus nature of the inquiry. Where has the op (or any other poster in this thread) proved the devil can read minds? That is the thesis implicitly asserted in the op, so you should be asking the op to prove that premise, not asking others to prove its antithesis. There is no obligation on anyone to 1) disprove an unsubstantiated claim, 2) prove any alternative to an unsubstantiated claim, or 3) allow any attempt at shifting the burden away from the responsibility of the affirmative position (in this case, the premise the devil finds out what we are thinking). So.....

No shifting onuses for you.

Next, it is very clear that scripture asserts the thought-knowing ability of God (Father and Son), the Creator of all creatures, and is silent on any other created (finite) creature possessing that ability. For who among people knows the thoughts of a person except the spirit of the person that is in him (1 Cor. 2:11)? The correct answer to that question (whether read literally or rhetorically) is a decided "No one!" Elsewhere we read,

Psalm 94:11
The LORD knows human thoughts, that they are mere breath.

This is important because the tendency to say, "The argument built on scripture's not explicitly stating the devil cannot read minds..... and any argument to the contrary is an argument from silence," proves incorrect because scripture is not silent. Scripture asserts divine ability. Divine ability: YES! Sinner's ability? Silence. However, it turns out scripture isn't wholly silent on the part of the sinful creature. As far as what scripture states about one person knowing another's thoughts, there is...

Proverbs 14:10
The heart knows its own bitterness, and a stranger does not share its joy.

A stranger cannot know another person's heart in either its bitterness or joy. In fact, to the degree that a person's thoughts are part of or a component of his or her heart, Jeremiah makes it abundantly clear sin has caused a deceitful effect on the ability of an individual to know and understand his own thoughts.

Jeremiah 17:9
The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked; Who can know it?

The answer, again, is "No one!" What the unregenerate person understands is his own sinfulness and even that is obscured. All of the above changes for the Spirit indwelt, born anew, regenerate person whose salvific faith is in Christ because for that person scripture states something much different. Paul, for example, speaking of the wisdom of God revealed in Christ wrote,

Romans 11:33-36 ESV
Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways! For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been his counselor? Or who has given a gift to him that he might be repaid?” For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen.

and...

1 Corinthians 2:9-16 ESV
But, as it is written, “What no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man imagined, what God has prepared for those who love him” - these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God. For who knows a person’s thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God. And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual. The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one. For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ.

The saved person has the Spirit of God that knows the mind of God, and God knows the thoughts of every individual (and humanity collectively), so while it is conceivably possible for God's Spirit to reveal the thoughts of another person to you or me, the purpose of all this Spirit-enabled power of knowledge, wisdom, and understanding is for the individual's self-knowledge in Christ, his/her edification and sanctification, NOT for us to go around presuming to read others' minds.

Psalm 139:4
Even before there is a word on my tongue, behold, LORD, You know it all.


I am, however, completely open to reading the case made for the premise the disobedient and therefore sin-enslaved and sinfully dead devil possesses that ability .

Thanks for taking the time to do this.

I was just curious if you knew something I didn't concerning the matter, or, at least, why you seemed so sure the devil had NO ability in that area —I certainly (as I assume you have read) don't consider the devil's ability (if he even has any ability) and God's ability in the matter to be even close to comparable.

Like I said, I am familiar with many scriptures that demonstrate God's ability to know our thoughts. Of course! After all, only God knows completely what he has made. That isn't in question.