Hebrews 6

[makesends]

Of course. It is called free will. God told Adam not to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. It was a command, a negative command but nevertheless a command. In creating Adam, God created him with the ability to choose for himself whether or not to obey any such commands. Adam chose to not obey. God obviously didn't cause Adam to eat the fruit of the forbidden tree either directly or through any means. Giving Adam the ability and the opportunity to choose for himself whether or not to obey is not causation of the choice. It is the very opposite of causation. The works of the creator-God is a very deep and wide subject all on its own. But very briefly there are things which God causes and things which God permits. Permitting is not causing -- period.

That does not demonstrate how anything can happen without God causing that it happen. Even you would probably say that God gave man free will, or endowed him with free will, or words to that effect. That of itself means that God caused that it happen. What you need to show is how God can cause something to be or happen that is uncaused to be or happen. Your notion of uncaused free will is self-contradictory.

 

[makesends]

That God presented Adam with a free choice did not cause Adam to sin. It permitted Adam to sin. You seem to think that the commands that God has imposed were simply arbitrary commands given as tests of obedience. That is not true. Some might have been tests of a sort, but most commands were necessary for mankind to live together one with another. We can see the calamitous results all around the world when man does not live as God has instructed. The instructions given were/are in contradistinction to instinct. The functioning of mankind through free will stands in stark contrast with the rest of the animal kingdom that functions on the basis of instinct. Your theology in refusing to accept the truth of free will behavior to obey imposes even more restrictive means on mankind than that of the instinctive behavior of the animal kingdom.

No. You're attempting to defeat another strawman, only, this one was almost too strong for you!

God's commands are absolutely to be obeyed --even the ones that are given to show our inability to obey.

Oh, and the thing about mankind operating on more than mere instinctive behavior --I don't say otherwise. We are "moral agents" --(I wouldn't be so careless in my use of the word, "free", there)-- but that does not imply any lack of causation.

Repeating your assertion does not prove your thesis.

 

[JIM]

Repeating your assertion does not prove your thesis.

And neither does your assertion that God is the cause of evil.

 

[makesends]

And neither does your assertion that God is the cause of evil.

That is not my assertion. He is only the first cause of all that comes subsequent to his causation. He is not THE cause of evil, though he did cause that there be evil.

But second, it is not mere assertion, but, as you have been shown repeatedly, mere simple logic. If God is, as I think you admit, first cause, then everything subsequent to his creating is caused by his creating, if not also by his intervening within time. Whatever happens comes as a result of him creating. Thus, he caused it to be.

Again, ad nauseum, to give you terms even your POV can follow, if you claim that God is omniscient, then he knew everything that would come of his creating, which necessarily implies that he INTENDED for them to happen, since he went ahead and created anyway.

 

[Mr GLee]

God caused that Adam sin. Can you show how it is possible that Adam sin apart from the fact that God caused that he sin? You will have to show that God did nothing that resulted in Adam sinning.

Adam disobeyed the loving commandment ....."dont listen the the serpent the voice of the evil one" or you are deader than a door nail

God created an evil by not revealing the light or hidden glory .He forms the light that exposes darkness. He performed the darkening when the athiest Jews refused to go, Christ sent them a evil dark nation in a hope of returning repenting his children back on the path of light. . a lamp unto the feet

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

Creates a evil situation not the source of sin

 

[JIM]

That is not my assertion. He is only the first cause of all that comes subsequent to his causation. He is not THE cause of evil, though he did cause that there be evil.

No, God did not cause there to be evil. What He caused there to be, which is the very thing you reject, is free will in obedience to God.

 

[makesends]

No, God did not cause there to be evil. What He caused there to be, which is the very thing you reject, is free will in obedience to God.

Mere assertion (once again). You have proven nothing.

 

[JIM]

Mere assertion (once again). You have proven nothing.

I haven't even tried to prove anything. And of course, try or not, you cannot prove anything relative to the subject. That is one reason why faith is so important. You can't even prove God exists, let alone prove anything about God or about His actions. That is on purpose. As I said, that is why faith is key.

 

[Eleanor]

I haven't even tried to prove anything. And of course, try or not, you cannot prove anything relative to the subject. That is one reason why faith is so important.
You can't even prove God exists, let alone prove anything about God or about His actions. That is on purpose. As I said, that is why faith is key.

The NT word of God disagrees with you on that one (Ro 1:18-20), leaving man without excuse (Ro 1:20) and condemned.

 

[JIM]

The NT word of God disagrees with you on that one (Ro 1:18-20), leaving man without excuse (Ro 1:20) and condemned.

No it doesn't. If God really wanted to prove His existence, He could have done that. He didn't. His creation, its very existence, gives very, very strong indication that there was a creator-God. But it is not proof. As I said, faith is key. Jesus words to Thomas well illustrates this: "Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

 

[Arial]

No it doesn't. If God really wanted to prove His existence, He could have done that. He didn't. His creation, its very existence, gives very, very strong indication that there was a creator-God. But it is not proof. As I said, faith is key. Jesus words to Thomas well illustrates this: "Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

Proof of God's existence is in the Bible when he does everything he says he is going to do and without fail. That is much more than we are given by the creation alone. And Jesus proved his (God) existence when he rose from the dead. When he, God, walked among us and performed miracles, when he came into our world through a virgin, fathered by God. When he said "I and my Father are one."

There were human witnesses to all these things, and their witness is recorded for us in the Bible.

 

[JIM]

Proof of God's existence is in the Bible when he does everything he says he is going to do and without fail. That is much more than we are given by the creation alone. And Jesus proved his (God) existence when he rose from the dead. When he, God, walked among us and performed miracles, when he came into our world through a virgin, fathered by God. When he said "I and my Father are one."

There were human witnesses to all these things, and their witness is recorded for us in the Bible.

That is compelling evidence but that is not proof.

1Co 13:12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.

 

[Arial]

The functioning of mankind through free will stands in stark contrast with the rest of the animal kingdom that functions on the basis of instinct.

That is an incorrect statement. You confuse instinct and will. Animals are not moral agents, but they have a will and make choices every minute of every day.

Your theology in refusing to accept the truth of free will behavior to obey imposes even more restrictive means on mankind than that of the instinctive behavior of the animal kingdom.

That is a very confusing sentence. I am not quite sure it makes any sense. Could you clarify?

 

[Arial]

That is compelling evidence but that is not proof.

The only people who it is not proof to would be the unregenerate who naturally don't believe the evidence or the witnesses.

The fact that we accept something in faith does not mean we do so blindly or without reason.

 

[Mr GLee]

No, God did not cause there to be evil. What He caused there to be, which is the very thing you reject, is free will in obedience to God.

Tp create is to cause.

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

Notice he did not claim to create Light .He is Light with it he makes peace

 

[Mr GLee]

No it doesn't. If God really wanted to prove His existence, He could have done that. He didn't. His creation, its very existence, gives very, very strong indication that there was a creator-God. But it is not proof. As I said, faith is key. Jesus words to Thomas well illustrates this: "Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

Slow down a little Jim it would seem you have not read it carefully .

Just what is it you desire to see?

So then are you saying invisible God has not made himself knows as it is written. Let there be

You have turned Thomas upside down. Blessed is he that hears his living abiding word .

Its the only way he proves himself (hear) not (see) .paganism. "out of sight out of mind"

In other words Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

Not blessed is he that seeks after signs to wonder, wonder wonder after rather than prophecy They made Jesu into a circus . seal Do some magic work a miracle then we will believer .Not of micro second before hearing

John 4:48 Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe.

John 6:30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?

 

[JIM]

Slow down a little Jim it would seem you have not read it carefully .

Just what is it you desire to see?

So then are you saying invisible God has not made himself knows as it is written. Let there be

You have turned Thomas upside down. Blessed is he that hears his living abiding word .

Its the only way he proves himself (hear) not (see) .paganism. "out of sight out of mind"

In other words Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

Not blessed is he that seeks after signs to wonder, wonder wonder after rather than prophecy They made Jesu into a circus . seal Do some magic work a miracle then we will believer .Not of micro second before hearing

John 4:48 Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe.

John 6:30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?

All I am saying is that God gave us enough to believe in Him, but He didn't provide us with absolute proof that He even exists. I truly believe there is a reason for that. Proving would necessarily get others, perhaps not all, to obey and follow Him while at the same time not honoring or loving Him. That certainly does not seem to be His purpose for creation.

 

[Mr GLee]

All I am saying is that God gave us enough to believe in Him, but He didn't provide us with absolute proof that He even exists. I truly believe there is a reason for that. Proving would necessarily get others, perhaps not all, to obey and follow Him while at the same time not honoring or loving Him. That certainly does not seem to be His purpose for creation.

The Bible is the absolute . Faith Christs power working in us comes it (faith understanding) comes from hearing .Not as seen . .

Our invisible God remains the powerful Spirit of truth. "Let there be"

 

[makesends]

No, God did not cause there to be evil. What He caused there to be, which is the very thing you reject, is free will in obedience to God.

Thanks. So even you admit he caused it. Hello! If he caused it, then he also, by means of it, necessarily caused what it does.

 

[makesends]

I haven't even tried to prove anything. And of course, try or not, you cannot prove anything relative to the subject. That is one reason why faith is so important. You can't even prove God exists, let alone prove anything about God or about His actions. That is on purpose. As I said, that is why faith is key.

Moving the goalposts.

(At the risk of running off topic: The devil has faith? He believes God exists. There are many people who consider mere existence proof that God exists. I am one of them, but they are not all saved. There are accomplished scientists who think that there has to be a reason for existence; and seeing as how they themselves apparently exist, something caused that they exist. To me, it makes more sense that God should exist than that I should, but here I am, so obviously God does. That's proof enough, quite apart from faith.)

I can prove something relative to where this discussion has run. Science, philosophy, theology, rational thinking and logic all operate on the prevailing nature of causation. 1) We know of nothing except first cause that is not an effect, most effects of which themselves are become also causes of further effects. This is universally axiomatic. You cannot disprove it. It is proof enough that whatever comes this far down the lines of causation are caused. 2) The antithesis is that some things spring into being by themselves, that are not only self-existent (as God is) but self-caused which God is not. He is not caused at all. He IS. WE are not IS. Uncaused choice is self-contradictory nonsense.