Keiw1
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Only to one in darkness. One who outright refuses to believe Jesus over the twistings of men.
Gods name
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Your assertion totally failed.
Keiw1
Well Known Member
Fred--John 17:3--Who does Jesus say is THE ONLY TRUE GOD? And WHY?
If a person who denies the Lord Jesus is God responds in this thread, then please answer this question in your first response:
---> Who is the only Master (despotēs) of every Christian?
Keiw1
Well Known Member
See you refuse to answer because you refuse to believe Jesus. Not a wise place to be standing Fred. All the real followers believe Jesus-FIRST.
The answer was in the link I provided. Next time open your eyes when you read.
Here's some help:
"The Lord Jesus is not ruling out that He is God in John 17:3, but He is contrasting that the Father is the only true God in comparison with all idols."
Hey Keiw1,
Who is the only Master (despotēs) of every Christian?
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TrevorL
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Greetings Keiw1,
Excerpts from JW Book Aid to Bible Understanding - Article Jehovah
I was interested in reading the article “Jehovah” pages 882-895 in the JW Book Aid to Bible Understanding. The following are a few excerpts that I found to be relevant to the subject of this thread and to some of the things that have been discussed.
Page 882: “Jehovah” is the best known English pronunciation of the divine name, but “Yahweh” is preferred by most scholars.
Page 884: The time did come, however, when in reading the Hebrew Scriptures in the original language, the Jewish reader substituted either ‘Adho-nay’ (Lord) or ‘Elo-him’ (God) rather than pronounce the divine name represented by the Tetragrammaton. This is seen from the fact that when vowel pointing came into use in the second half of the first millennium C.E. the Jewish copyists inserted the vowel points for either ‘Adho-nay’ or ‘Elo-him’ into the Tetragrammaton, evidently to warn the reader to say those words in place of pronouncing the divine name.
Pages 884-885: The pronunciations “Jehovah” and “Yahweh”: By combining the vowel signs of ‘Adho-nay’ and ‘Elo-him’ with the four consonants of the Tetragrammaton the pronunciations ‘Yeho-wah’ and ‘Yeho-wih’ were formed. The first of these provided the basis for the Latinised form “Jehova(h)”. The first recorded use of this form dates from the thirteenth century C.E. Raymundus Martini, a Spanish monk of the Dominican Order, used it in his book Pugco Fidei of the year 1270. Hebrew scholars generally favour “Yahweh” as the most likely pronunciation.
Page 888: Moses raised the question: “Suppose I am now come to the sons of Israel and I do say to them, ‘The God of your forefathers has sent me to you,’ and they do say to me ‘What is his name?’ What shall I say to them?” … Moses’ question was a meaningful one. God’s reply in Hebrew was “’Eh-yeh’ asher eh-yeh’.” While some translations render this as “I AM THAT I AM,” the Hebrew verb (ha-yah’) from which the word ‘eh-yeh’ is drawn does not mean simply to exist. Rather, it means to come into existence, to happen, occur, become, take on (an attribute), enter upon (a state), or constitute. Thus, the footnote of the Revised Standard Version gives as one reading “I Will Be What I Will Be”.
The JWs hide or obscure this information today, though it is briefly mentioned in a portion of their modern literature. But the emphasis is almost exclusively on "Jehovah", and they use and advertise this erroneous form and almost baost about their use of "Jehovah".
Kind regards
Trevor
Although the JWs prefer to use "Jehovah", their literature is clear that the form "Jehovah" is an erroneous rendition of the YHWH Name. Consider Strongs'' #3068 and #3069 as to the origin of the incorrect "Jehovah". The following JW Article also gives a similar explanation:
Excerpts from JW Book Aid to Bible Understanding - Article Jehovah
I was interested in reading the article “Jehovah” pages 882-895 in the JW Book Aid to Bible Understanding. The following are a few excerpts that I found to be relevant to the subject of this thread and to some of the things that have been discussed.
Page 882: “Jehovah” is the best known English pronunciation of the divine name, but “Yahweh” is preferred by most scholars.
Page 884: The time did come, however, when in reading the Hebrew Scriptures in the original language, the Jewish reader substituted either ‘Adho-nay’ (Lord) or ‘Elo-him’ (God) rather than pronounce the divine name represented by the Tetragrammaton. This is seen from the fact that when vowel pointing came into use in the second half of the first millennium C.E. the Jewish copyists inserted the vowel points for either ‘Adho-nay’ or ‘Elo-him’ into the Tetragrammaton, evidently to warn the reader to say those words in place of pronouncing the divine name.
Pages 884-885: The pronunciations “Jehovah” and “Yahweh”: By combining the vowel signs of ‘Adho-nay’ and ‘Elo-him’ with the four consonants of the Tetragrammaton the pronunciations ‘Yeho-wah’ and ‘Yeho-wih’ were formed. The first of these provided the basis for the Latinised form “Jehova(h)”. The first recorded use of this form dates from the thirteenth century C.E. Raymundus Martini, a Spanish monk of the Dominican Order, used it in his book Pugco Fidei of the year 1270. Hebrew scholars generally favour “Yahweh” as the most likely pronunciation.
Page 888: Moses raised the question: “Suppose I am now come to the sons of Israel and I do say to them, ‘The God of your forefathers has sent me to you,’ and they do say to me ‘What is his name?’ What shall I say to them?” … Moses’ question was a meaningful one. God’s reply in Hebrew was “’Eh-yeh’ asher eh-yeh’.” While some translations render this as “I AM THAT I AM,” the Hebrew verb (ha-yah’) from which the word ‘eh-yeh’ is drawn does not mean simply to exist. Rather, it means to come into existence, to happen, occur, become, take on (an attribute), enter upon (a state), or constitute. Thus, the footnote of the Revised Standard Version gives as one reading “I Will Be What I Will Be”.
The JWs hide or obscure this information today, though it is briefly mentioned in a portion of their modern literature. But the emphasis is almost exclusively on "Jehovah", and they use and advertise this erroneous form and almost baost about their use of "Jehovah".
Kind regards
Trevor
Keiw1
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Jehovah is Gods name. The scholars mentioned are mislead. YHVH or YHWH is Hebrew, we don't speak Hebrew or use Hebrew names in our bibles-Thus-Yob we use Job, Yeremiah we use Jeremiah etc.
CrowCross
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Yimmy Hendrex would have wrote....Hey Yoe, where you going with that gun in your hand.
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CrowCross
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This saying comes from John 17:
"3 Now this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent."
Yes, that is what it says...no argument from me.
Those that are hostile to or have an opposition to the divinity of Christ Jesus like to pull out this verse as proof that Jesus Christ isn't God.
But, what is the context? The context is that Jesus is in prayer and addressing God the Father. I don't think any of the Jesus is God divinity deniers can deny that.
Considering that it makes complete sense that Jesus in prayer seeing how Jesus is addressing and referring to God the Father separately and directly. Praying in that manner and terms would be completely normal for God the Son to address God the Father. It should be understood that a distinction of person does not equate to a lack of oneness.
It can be said that the Father is also addressed in such fashion, that is.... considering the Father and the world’s false gods and idols. Yes, the Father is the one true God and not a false god or idol. More can be read about here. Basically ‘the only true God’ is directed against the many false, spurious gods of the heathen.
It can also be said that man may know God the Father in this sense, that is the one true God.... and not know him in Christ. Some here demonstrate that.
We also must recognize that according to Phil 2 Christ Jesus "emptied" himself....also know as the kenosis...and took on the role of a servant. That is Jesus allowed Himself to subservient to the Father when the Word who was God became flesh. From this position of servitude kenosis Jesus placed the Father above Him addressing God the Father from the position of Jesus being in the role of a man just as we are. John 17:4 tells us in this subservient position Jesus glorified God the Father by accomplishing the work He gave Jesus to do. Jesus asked the Father to...."5 And now, Father, glorify Me in Your presence with the glory I had with You before the world existed."
Paul in Phil 2 then tells us of what happened.... 9 Therefore God exalted Him to the highest place and gave Him the name above all names.
From the position spoken of above Jesus who is also God and could address the Father as the one true God or His God.
Keiw1
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Paul backs Jesus-1Cor 8:6-There is one God to all, the FATHER. He does not back the trinity god.
CrowCross
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Paul may not have written specifically about a "trinity God"....but he most certainly presented Jesus as God in Phil 2: 6....who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,
Keiw1
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Did not count equality=not God, Gods image, Gods son.
CrowCross
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If you are the form of God as well as equal to God...sounds like you're God.
Even John confirms what Paul wrote when he said the Word was God and the Word was with God...then the Word became flesh...where Paul Confirmed John when he said Christ Jesus (who is the Word) took on the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men (Phil 2:7)
Josheb
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That interpretation is due solely to your interpretation, not what is actually stated. Paul does not make any statement backing or not backing a unified echad. You are filing in the silence and doing so based on a pre-existing view AND doing so in spite of the fact scripture constantly assigns divine attributes to the Son in a manner that would otherwise be heretical unless true.
Keiw1
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Jehovah doesn't have a God. Jesus has a God.
Keiw1
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Over and over Paul teaches-the Father is Jesus' God-2Cor 1:3, Eph 1:3,17, Col 1:13--so does Peter-1Pet 1:3
CrowCross
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If that's what you need to believe, then go for it.
TrevorL
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Greetings again Keiw1,
The following is one article that I found on the JW Website:
What pronunciation do Jehovah’s witnesses view as more correct? On page 25 of the foreword of the New World Translation of the Christian Greek Scriptures, published by the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society in 1950, the translators stated that they inclined “to view the pronunciation ‘Yah.weh,’ as the more correct way.”
If the publishing agency for Jehovah’s witnesses recognizes that “Yahweh” is more correct, why do they use “Jehovah” in their translation, writing and worship instead? Because the form “Jehovah” has been familiar to people for many centuries, and that form of The Name, just as faithfully as other forms, preserves the sounds of the four consonants of the tetragrammaton.
In contrast, we find the following in their recent publications. One such current JW book is “What Can the Bible Teach Us?” and the following appears in Chapter 15: The right way to worship God
Page 156: “So, as God’s servants we follow Jesus’ example. We worship only Jehovah, we use his name, and we teach others God’s name and what he will do for us.”
Their claim that the JWs are the true religion is explicitly stated on pages 158-159, where there is a list of some of their teachings and practices are listed, and then the following is stated:
Page 158: “After studying these points, ask yourself: Who base their teachings on the Bible? Who tell others about God’s name? Who …? Who …? Who …? It is only Jehovah’s Witnesses Isaiah 43:10-12.”
My Comment: JWs do not fully base their beliefs on the Bible. They incorrectly use and teach the name “Jehovah”.
Kind regards
Trevor
The scholars I mentioned are JW scholars in their book "Aid to Understanding". Much of what is stated in that article is largely suppressed today, and the majority of JWs are unaware, and they repeat after you "Jehovah is God's Name", and the whole JW environment uses "Jehovah" all the time, but the information is there if you have an enquiring mind.
The following is one article that I found on the JW Website:
What pronunciation do Jehovah’s witnesses view as more correct? On page 25 of the foreword of the New World Translation of the Christian Greek Scriptures, published by the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society in 1950, the translators stated that they inclined “to view the pronunciation ‘Yah.weh,’ as the more correct way.”
If the publishing agency for Jehovah’s witnesses recognizes that “Yahweh” is more correct, why do they use “Jehovah” in their translation, writing and worship instead? Because the form “Jehovah” has been familiar to people for many centuries, and that form of The Name, just as faithfully as other forms, preserves the sounds of the four consonants of the tetragrammaton.
In contrast, we find the following in their recent publications. One such current JW book is “What Can the Bible Teach Us?” and the following appears in Chapter 15: The right way to worship God
Page 156: “So, as God’s servants we follow Jesus’ example. We worship only Jehovah, we use his name, and we teach others God’s name and what he will do for us.”
Their claim that the JWs are the true religion is explicitly stated on pages 158-159, where there is a list of some of their teachings and practices are listed, and then the following is stated:
Page 158: “After studying these points, ask yourself: Who base their teachings on the Bible? Who tell others about God’s name? Who …? Who …? Who …? It is only Jehovah’s Witnesses Isaiah 43:10-12.”
My Comment: JWs do not fully base their beliefs on the Bible. They incorrectly use and teach the name “Jehovah”.
Kind regards
Trevor
Josheb
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So what?
The Bible explains why. Even though he existed in the form (morphe)of theou, he did not consider equality with God something to be grasped (Php. 2:6). Logically speaking, there are only a few options explaining this verse. Either the verse is simply implying Jesus is not delusional, and nothing more, or it is implying equality with God was something he could legitimately and actually consider and he is not delusional. The problem is the verse uses the same word used for God; that is "theou." When we say Jesis is the "Son of God," we are using the word
theou" for "God" (see verses like Matthew 4:3, and Matthew 16:16; Luke 1:35; John 11:4, and nearly 700 other cases in the NT where theou refers to big-G God, the Creator of all things. Therefore, although existing in the form of Theou, the Son of Theou did not consider equality with Theou something to be grasped. Existing in the form of Theou, he choose not to grasp equality. His choosing not to be equal did not change his existing as Theou.
And since we have already established the fact there cannot be two or more Gods (Thoei) the Theou that is God and the Theou that existed in God's form must somehow be the same Theou.
Furthermore, we know from John 1 that Jesus the logos of Theon is Theos and he was there from the beginning (before humans were made), AND we know from 1 Peter 1:20 that he was foreknown before the world was created. In other words, the Theou/Theos of the Theon existed before Genesis 1:1. We also know this Jesus is called the logos of God, the wisdom of God, and that means without Jesus God has no word or wisdom. We know his Spirit is God's Spirit (Rom. 8:9). He's also the King in the kingdom of God, which means if Jesus is not divine then God is not king of God's kingdom.
The result is either an Occam's Razor defying Theology that has separate explanations for all the seeming contradictions, or a single simple explanation: Jesus is God, and God is something much more complex than any of us can comprehend.
So... when you say "Jehovah doesn't have a God. Jesus has a God," you should understand most people read that like Second grader said it because it is a profoundly ignorant sentence that can be made only when select verses are treated with eisegesis. It does not reconcile with the whole of scripture. The NT writers said the Son of Theou existed as Theou and shared Theou's Spirit. That Spirit is also Theou. By the same standard the divinity of Christ is denied the divinity-of-Christ denying theologies must also deny the divinity of the Holy Spirit.
Quite simply, in the Bible there are scores of statements made about Jesus that either make him divine or make a heretic and if he is a heretic then he is not Savior and all of us are still dead in sin.
