Gods name

[Josheb]

Over and over Paul teaches-the Father is Jesus' God-2Cor 1:3, Eph 1:3,17, Col 1:13--so does Peter-1Pet 1:3

Yes.

The reason the New Testament uses the language of "Father," "Son," and "Holy Spirit" is because the New Testament is specifically soteriological. Discriminating language is used to better communicate the fact all the soteriological and messianic prophecies of old were coming true. God saves. The Son saves. Jesus saves. The simple fact that there is salvation in no one else, there is no other name by which we must be saved, he alone is able to save eternally is heretical!

In the Old Testament it is God and only God who saves.

For any man to claim he saves is to make himself equal to God and that makes him a heretic and therefore no one's savior if he is only a man. However, if he is, in fact, also God then what he claimed about himself and what all the NT writers claimed about his is true and he's not a heretic and he is able to save. The moment it is acknowledged "Jesus saves" his divinity must also be conceded.

Otherwise, there are two completely separate individual Saviors: the Father and the Son.

You guys cannot have it both ways. Appeals to 1 Timothy 2:15 do not change the fact Jesus is ALSO assign divine attributes. Lots of verses assert human attributes. No Trinitarian ever denies those verses. Scripture calls Jesus a man. Scripture also calls him God (Theou). Lots of verses assert divine attributes. As I said in my previous post, either Occam's Razor is denied and a hodgepodge of separate explanations are created that still never resolve the heretical attribution, or one single, solitary cohesive explanation that's completely consistent with both sets of asserts is accepted. The Son of Theou that is Theou has a Father that is Theos.


Yeah, we know.

 

[Keiw1]

If that's what you need to believe, then go for it.

John 20:17--believe Jesus

 

[Keiw1]

Greetings again Keiw1,


The scholars I mentioned are JW scholars in their book "Aid to Understanding". Much of what is stated in that article is largely suppressed today, and the majority of JWs are unaware, and they repeat after you "Jehovah is God's Name", and the whole JW environment uses "Jehovah" all the time, but the information is there if you have an enquiring mind.

The following is one article that I found on the JW Website:
What pronunciation do Jehovah’s witnesses view as more correct? On page 25 of the foreword of the New World Translation of the Christian Greek Scriptures, published by the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society in 1950, the translators stated that they inclined “to view the pronunciation ‘Yah.weh,’ as the more correct way.”

If the publishing agency for Jehovah’s witnesses recognizes that “Yahweh” is more correct, why do they use “Jehovah” in their translation, writing and worship instead? Because the form “Jehovah” has been familiar to people for many centuries, and that form of The Name, just as faithfully as other forms, preserves the sounds of the four consonants of the tetragrammaton.

In contrast, we find the following in their recent publications. One such current JW book is “What Can the Bible Teach Us?” and the following appears in Chapter 15: The right way to worship God

Page 156: “So, as God’s servants we follow Jesus’ example. We worship only Jehovah, we use his name, and we teach others God’s name and what he will do for us.”
Their claim that the JWs are the true religion is explicitly stated on pages 158-159, where there is a list of some of their teachings and practices are listed, and then the following is stated:
Page 158: “After studying these points, ask yourself: Who base their teachings on the Bible? Who tell others about God’s name? Who …? Who …? Who …? It is only Jehovah’s Witnesses Isaiah 43:10-12.”
My Comment: JWs do not fully base their beliefs on the Bible. They incorrectly use and teach the name “Jehovah”.

Kind regards
Trevor

Every JW on earth knows the true Gods name IS Jehovah.

 

[CrowCross]

John 20:17--believe Jesus

17“Do not cling to Me,” Jesus said, “for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go and tell My brothers, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, to My God and your God.’ ”

just for the record...can you tell me what the kenosis is? Can you tell me the role of Jesus during the kenosis?

 

[Keiw1]

So what?

The Bible explains why. Even though he existed in the form (morphe)of theou, he did not consider equality with God something to be grasped (Php. 2:6). Logically speaking, there are only a few options explaining this verse. Either the verse is simply implying Jesus is not delusional, and nothing more, or it is implying equality with God was something he could legitimately and actually consider and he is not delusional. The problem is the verse uses the same word used for God; that is "theou." When we say Jesis is the "Son of God," we are using the word
theou" for "God" (see verses like Matthew 4:3, and Matthew 16:16; Luke 1:35; John 11:4, and nearly 700 other cases in the NT where theou refers to big-G God, the Creator of all things. Therefore, although existing in the form of Theou, the Son of Theou did not consider equality with Theou something to be grasped. Existing in the form of Theou, he choose not to grasp equality. His choosing not to be equal did not change his existing as Theou.

And since we have already established the fact there cannot be two or more Gods (Thoei) the Theou that is God and the Theou that existed in God's form must somehow be the same Theou.

Furthermore, we know from John 1 that Jesus the logos of Theon is Theos and he was there from the beginning (before humans were made), AND we know from 1 Peter 1:20 that he was foreknown before the world was created. In other words, the Theou/Theos of the Theon existed before Genesis 1:1. We also know this Jesus is called the logos of God, the wisdom of God, and that means without Jesus God has no word or wisdom. We know his Spirit is God's Spirit (Rom. 8:9). He's also the King in the kingdom of God, which means if Jesus is not divine then God is not king of God's kingdom.

The result is either an Occam's Razor defying Theology that has separate explanations for all the seeming contradictions, or a single simple explanation: Jesus is God, and God is something much more complex than any of us can comprehend.

So... when you say "Jehovah doesn't have a God. Jesus has a God," you should understand most people read that like Second grader said it because it is a profoundly ignorant sentence that can be made only when select verses are treated with eisegesis. It does not reconcile with the whole of scripture. The NT writers said the Son of Theou existed as Theou and shared Theou's Spirit. That Spirit is also Theou. By the same standard the divinity of Christ is denied the divinity-of-Christ denying theologies must also deny the divinity of the Holy Spirit.

Quite simply, in the Bible there are scores of statements made about Jesus that either make him divine or make a heretic and if he is a heretic then he is not Savior and all of us are still dead in sin.

Jesus has a God Before earth( Psalm 45:7) on Earth( John 20:17) and back in heaven( Rev 3:12)

 

[Keiw1]

Yes.

The reason the New Testament uses the language of "Father," "Son," and "Holy Spirit" is because the New Testament is specifically soteriological. Discriminating language is used to better communicate the fact all the soteriological and messianic prophecies of old were coming true. God saves. The Son saves. Jesus saves. The simple fact that there is salvation in no one else, there is no other name by which we must be saved, he alone is able to save eternally is heretical!

In the Old Testament it is God and only God who saves.

For any man to claim he saves is to make himself equal to God and that makes him a heretic and therefore no one's savior if he is only a man. However, if he is, in fact, also God then what he claimed about himself and what all the NT writers claimed about his is true and he's not a heretic and he is able to save. The moment it is acknowledged "Jesus saves" his divinity must also be conceded.

Otherwise, there are two completely separate individual Saviors: the Father and the Son.

You guys cannot have it both ways. Appeals to 1 Timothy 2:15 do not change the fact Jesus is ALSO assign divine attributes. Lots of verses assert human attributes. No Trinitarian ever denies those verses. Scripture calls Jesus a man. Scripture also calls him God (Theou). Lots of verses assert divine attributes. As I said in my previous post, either Occam's Razor is denied and a hodgepodge of separate explanations are created that still never resolve the heretical attribution, or one single, solitary cohesive explanation that's completely consistent with both sets of asserts is accepted. The Son of Theou that is Theou has a Father that is Theos.


Yeah, we know.

Jesus became savior doing his Fathers will by living a perfect existence yet paying in full the wages of sin= death that he did not owe. Jehovah was the only savior prior to that event.

 

[Keiw1]

17“Do not cling to Me,” Jesus said, “for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go and tell My brothers, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, to My God and your God.’ ”

just for the record...can you tell me what the kenosis is? Can you tell me the role of Jesus during the kenosis?

Michael gave up his spirit existence to become mortal.

 

[Josheb]

Jesus has a God Before earth (Psalm 45:7) on Earth (John 20:17) and back in heaven ( Rev 3:12)

Yes, and the Jesus who has a God before earth and back in heaven is God. You do not get to be selective with scripture. ALL of it must be taken as a whole and the fact is the Bible repeatedly uses the exactly labels and attributes of the Father for Jesus, the Son. Centuries of vigorous and prayerful debate examined this with many sincere and earnest men taking various positions (Jesus is only human, or only a spirit, or this or that or something else). When scripture is taken as a whole the scriptures themselves assign both divine and human attributes to Jesus AND the scriptures do so in a manner that would be wholly heretical if untrue.

 

[Josheb]

Jesus became savior doing his Fathers will by living a perfect existence yet paying in full the wages of sin= death that he did not owe. Jehovah was the only savior prior to that event.

Jesus was foreknown as the perfect sacrifice (the perfect saving sacrifice) before the world was made. He did not "become" it through works. He was always that Person.

Maybe we ought to clarify something: is salvation by works?


.

 

[CrowCross]

Michael gave up his spirit existence to become mortal.

I have to go along with Josheb on this one....

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Keiw1,

Every JW on earth knows the true Gods name IS Jehovah.

I suggest that this is an excellent example of the current JW propaganda and how the JWs environment works. It ignores the JW scholars who wrote the following, and yes, perhaps the scholars are not alive today, but what they wrote has been quietly endorsed and has not been revoked, but is allowed to fade and other propaganda and usage brought to prominence and the previous correct information fades.

Excerpts from JW Book Aid to Bible Understanding - Article Jehovah
Page 882: “Jehovah” is the best known English pronunciation of the divine name, but “Yahweh” is preferred by most scholars.

Page 884: The time did come, however, when in reading the Hebrew Scriptures in the original language, the Jewish reader substituted either ‘Adho-nay’ (Lord) or ‘Elo-him’ (God) rather than pronounce the divine name represented by the Tetragrammaton. This is seen from the fact that when vowel pointing came into use in the second half of the first millennium C.E. the Jewish copyists inserted the vowel points for either ‘Adho-nay’ or ‘Elo-him’ into the Tetragrammaton, evidently to warn the reader to say those words in place of pronouncing the divine name.

Pages 884-885: The pronunciations “Jehovah” and “Yahweh”: By combining the vowel signs of ‘Adho-nay’ and ‘Elo-him’ with the four consonants of the Tetragrammaton the pronunciations ‘Yeho-wah’ and ‘Yeho-wih’ were formed. The first of these provided the basis for the Latinised form “Jehova(h)”. The first recorded use of this form dates from the thirteenth century C.E. Raymundus Martini, a Spanish monk of the Dominican Order, used it in his book Pugco Fidei of the year 1270. Hebrew scholars generally favour “Yahweh” as the most likely pronunciation.

In the same Post I also stated the following which agrees with the JW article:

Although the JWs prefer to use "Jehovah", their literature is clear that the form "Jehovah" is an erroneous rendition of the YHWH Name. Consider Strongs'' #3068 and #3069 as to the origin of the incorrect "Jehovah".

Although most JWs are not interested in the following, and in fact they are discouraged from considering any "outside" scholarship, I will expand on the two forms of YHWH that appear in the Hebrew text, the one with the vowel points of Adonai, and the other with the vowel points of Elohim:

3068 יהוה, יְהוִה [Yâhovah /yeh·ho·vaw/] n pr dei. From 1961; 6519 occurrences; AV translates as “LORD” 6510 times, “GOD” four times, “JEHOVAH” four times, and “variant” once. 1 the proper name of the one true God. 1A unpronounced except with the vowel pointings of 0136.
Strong, J. (1995). Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon. Woodside Bible Fellowship.

3069 יהוה, יְהוִה [Yâhovih /yeh·ho·vee/] n pr dei. A variation of 3068 [used after 136, and pronounced by Jews as 430, in order to prevent the repetition of the same sound, since they elsewhere pronounce 3068 as 136]; 305 occurrences; AV translates as “GOD” 304 times, and “LORD” once. 1 Jehovah—used primarily in the combination ‘Lord Jehovah’. 1A equal to 03068 but pointed with the vowels of 0430.
Strong, J. (1995). Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon. Woodside Bible Fellowship.

A good example of where both of these variations of YHWH occur is Isaiah 50:
Isaiah 50:4–11 (KJV): 4 The Lord GOD (S#3069) hath given me the tongue of the learned, that I should know how to speak a word in season to him that is weary: he wakeneth morning by morning, he wakeneth mine ear to hear as the learned. 5 The Lord GOD (S#3069) hath opened mine ear, and I was not rebellious, neither turned away back. 6 I gave my back to the smiters, and my cheeks to them that plucked off the hair: I hid not my face from shame and spitting. 7 For the Lord GOD (S#3069) will help me; therefore shall I not be confounded: therefore have I set my face like a flint, and I know that I shall not be ashamed. 8 He is near that justifieth me; who will contend with me? let us stand together: who is mine adversary? let him come near to me. 9 Behold, the Lord GOD (S#3069) will help me; who is he that shall condemn me? lo, they all shall wax old as a garment; the moth shall eat them up.
10 Who is among you that feareth the LORD (S#3068), that obeyeth the voice of his servant, that walketh in darkness, and hath no light? let him trust in the name of the LORD (S#3069), and stay upon his God. 11 Behold, all ye that kindle a fire, that compass yourselves about with sparks: walk in the light of your fire, and in the sparks that ye have kindled. This shall ye have of mine hand; ye shall lie down in sorrow.

The word "Jehovah" is based upon a misreading" of S#3068 which uses the vowel points of Adonai, and seek to pronounce YHWH with these vowel points. Such a method ignores the obvious and the original reason why the two different vowel points were added.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Keiw1]

Yes, and the Jesus who has a God before earth and back in heaven is God. You do not get to be selective with scripture. ALL of it must be taken as a whole and the fact is the Bible repeatedly uses the exactly labels and attributes of the Father for Jesus, the Son. Centuries of vigorous and prayerful debate examined this with many sincere and earnest men taking various positions (Jesus is only human, or only a spirit, or this or that or something else). When scripture is taken as a whole the scriptures themselves assign both divine and human attributes to Jesus AND the scriptures do so in a manner that would be wholly heretical if untrue.

Jesus is NEVER called almighty God. God gave him all authority, God appointed him to a kingship, God taught him everything to speak. If he were God he had all of that already.

 

[Keiw1]

Jesus was foreknown as the perfect sacrifice (the perfect saving sacrifice) before the world was made. He did not "become" it through works. He was always that Person.

Maybe we ought to clarify something: is salvation by works?


.

No it was not before the world was made. It occurred in Genesis after creation was completed. In a sense salvation is from works. Because faith gets one salvation, and faith without works is dead-meaning, ones faith will fail when the pressures come if they didn't do works to build up a strong living faith. thus faith and works go hand in hand.

 

[Keiw1]

Greetings again Keiw1,

I suggest that this is an excellent example of the current JW propaganda and how the JWs environment works. It ignores the JW scholars who wrote the following, and yes, perhaps the scholars are not alive today, but what they wrote has been quietly endorsed and has not been revoked, but is allowed to fade and other propaganda and usage brought to prominence and the previous correct information fades.

In the same Post I also stated the following which agrees with the JW article:

Although most JWs are not interested in the following, and in fact they are discouraged from considering any "outside" scholarship, I will expand on the two forms of YHWH that appear in the Hebrew text, the one with the vowel points of Adonai, and the other with the vowel points of Elohim:

3068 יהוה, יְהוִה [Yâhovah /yeh·ho·vaw/] n pr dei. From 1961; 6519 occurrences; AV translates as “LORD” 6510 times, “GOD” four times, “JEHOVAH” four times, and “variant” once. 1 the proper name of the one true God. 1A unpronounced except with the vowel pointings of 0136.
Strong, J. (1995). Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon. Woodside Bible Fellowship.

3069 יהוה, יְהוִה [Yâhovih /yeh·ho·vee/] n pr dei. A variation of 3068 [used after 136, and pronounced by Jews as 430, in order to prevent the repetition of the same sound, since they elsewhere pronounce 3068 as 136]; 305 occurrences; AV translates as “GOD” 304 times, and “LORD” once. 1 Jehovah—used primarily in the combination ‘Lord Jehovah’. 1A equal to 03068 but pointed with the vowels of 0430.
Strong, J. (1995). Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon. Woodside Bible Fellowship.

A good example of where both of these variations of YHWH occur is Isaiah 50:
Isaiah 50:4–11 (KJV): 4 The Lord GOD (S#3069) hath given me the tongue of the learned, that I should know how to speak a word in season to him that is weary: he wakeneth morning by morning, he wakeneth mine ear to hear as the learned. 5 The Lord GOD (S#3069) hath opened mine ear, and I was not rebellious, neither turned away back. 6 I gave my back to the smiters, and my cheeks to them that plucked off the hair: I hid not my face from shame and spitting. 7 For the Lord GOD (S#3069) will help me; therefore shall I not be confounded: therefore have I set my face like a flint, and I know that I shall not be ashamed. 8 He is near that justifieth me; who will contend with me? let us stand together: who is mine adversary? let him come near to me. 9 Behold, the Lord GOD (S#3069) will help me; who is he that shall condemn me? lo, they all shall wax old as a garment; the moth shall eat them up.
10 Who is among you that feareth the LORD (S#3068), that obeyeth the voice of his servant, that walketh in darkness, and hath no light? let him trust in the name of the LORD (S#3069), and stay upon his God. 11 Behold, all ye that kindle a fire, that compass yourselves about with sparks: walk in the light of your fire, and in the sparks that ye have kindled. This shall ye have of mine hand; ye shall lie down in sorrow.

The word "Jehovah" is based upon a misreading" of S#3068 which uses the vowel points of Adonai, and seek to pronounce YHWH with these vowel points. Such a method ignores the obvious and the original reason why the two different vowel points were added.

Kind regards
Trevor

All know Gods truth is progressive in his religion in the last days. At the proper time truth is revealed-Matt 24:45--its now 2024--your post is years old.

 

[Mr GLee]

Every JW on earth knows the true Gods name IS Jehovah.

What is the meaning of the attribute of God "Jehovah" that should solve it?

I am quite sure it means Almighty God has become my savior. What do you think the word Jehovah means?

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Keiw1,

All know Gods truth is progressive in his religion in the last days.

This is how JWs explain some of the changes in their doctrine and predictions, and this is very suspect with some of these.

At the proper time truth is revealed-Matt 24:45--its now 2024--your post is years old.

The only trouble with this claim is that what the JW scholars stated in 1971 was true, as I substantiated from Strongs'#3068, 3069. Today this has been largely suppressed and replaced by error because of such claims that you echo.

Every JW on earth knows the true Gods name IS Jehovah.

I am 100% sure-Jehovah is Gods personal name. No matter what men concoct.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Keiw1]

What is the meaning of the attribute of God "Jehovah" that should solve it?

I am quite sure it means Almighty God has become my savior. What do you think the word Jehovah means?

Causes to become.

 

[Keiw1]

Greetings again Keiw1,

This is how JWs explain some of the changes in their doctrine and predictions, and this is very suspect with some of these.

The only trouble with this claim is that what the JW scholars stated in 1971 was true, as I substantiated from Strongs'#3068, 3069. Today this has been largely suppressed and replaced by error because of such claims that you echo.



Kind regards
Trevor

If you read the prophecies in Ezekial, you find-Truth explained like starting as a shallow stream, but eventually becomes very deep--That is as time goes by truths get revealed at the proper time( Matt 24:45)--That is Gods will for it to occur like that.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Keiw1,

If you read the prophecies in Ezekial, you find-Truth explained like starting as a shallow stream, but eventually becomes very deep--That is as time goes by truths get revealed at the proper time( Matt 24:45)--That is Gods will for it to occur like that.

You fail to realise that the JWs have drifted away from what is true in this particular matter. To some extent I consider that JWs that have some portion of understanding are to some extent embarrassed by Judge Rutherford's selection of the name of their religion as "Jehovah's Witnesses", supporting this error.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Mr GLee]

Causes to become.

His labor of Love caused of Him to become our almighty Savior. Jehovah is attribute of God as our savior. Like the word Joshua.
Joshua it comes from the Hebrew name "Yehoshua," meaning "God is deliverance."

God does not have a name like "hey you" Gertrude, George, Billy Bob, Sussy Mae.

He has no gods before him in the likeness of dying mankind . He knows who he is and as recorded it as a written law. . He is the lamb slain from the foundation the six days he did works. The work of the Father was demonstrated in the garden of Gethsemane and the hill of shame the cross and lastly the Tomb. .

Isaiah 12:2 Behold, God is my salvation; I will trust, and not be afraid: for the Lord Jehovah is my strength and my song; he also is become my salvation.

No secret names or secret spelling. Mysteries are found in parables

Remember its an evil generation. . natural unconverted mankind that looks to a sign to wonder after "seekers of mysteries" .No signs were given. The mysteries are made known in parables . . God's will reveals his mysteries just as he did to Peter . . when Satan took advantage and bore false pride with Peter our brother in the lord . Peter rebuking eternal God. It would seem Peter learned his lesson he is not the revealer of the mysteries of will of God. Satan trying to establish a Jewish man as King of kings. When the veil which representing the circummsion of the fist born son of God there was no Jewish man as King of kings sting in the holy place .

Satan fell he could no longer deceive all the nations of the world that eternal God is a dying Jewish man. He will ne loosed for a short time at the end of days to again deceive all the nations God is a Jewish man as King of King and Lord of lords .

Mathew 16: 17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Peter deceived turned it upside down inspired from dying earth of the devil not from heaven our invisible head. Peter did not reveal it to Peter . Only God not seen can reveal his eternal mysteries of his living l will.