• **Notifications**: Notifications can be dismissed by clicking on the "x" on the righthand side of the notice.
  • **New Style**: You can now change style options. Click on the paintbrush at the bottom of this page.
  • **Donations**: If the Lord leads you please consider helping with monthly costs and up keep on our Forum. Click on the Donate link In the top menu bar. Thanks
  • **New Blog section**: There is now a blog section. Check it out near the Private Debates forum or click on the Blog link in the top menu bar.
  • Welcome Visitors! Join us and be blessed while fellowshipping and celebrating our Glorious Salvation In Christ Jesus.

Gods name

Jesus is NEVER called almighty God. God gave him all authority, God appointed him to a kingship, God taught him everything to speak. If he were God he had all of that already.
Jesus is called "Theou," and that is the exact same term used for God. That fact is repeated dozens of time in the NT. Post 132 is wrong.
No it was not before the world was made. It occurred in Genesis after creation was completed.
That would not be "in the beginning. Logic and reason are our friends.

Colossians 1:15-18
He [Jesus] is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities — all things have been created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. He is also head of the body, the church; and he is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that he himself will come to have first place in everything.

Jesus is the creator of all things. Once again, we find scripture stating things about Jesus that make him equal with God; things that would be completely heretical and render him unable to be Lord and Savior of anything unless true exactly as stated.
In a sense salvation is from works.
I did not ask if salvation was "from" works. I asked if salvation is by works. Stop moving the goal posts and dodging the question asked.
Because faith gets one salvation, and faith without works is dead-meaning, ones faith will fail when the pressures come if they didn't do works to build up a strong living faith. thus faith and works go hand in hand.
Not a point in dispute. That does not answer the question: Is salvation by works? Can a sinner work his/her way to salvation?
 
Greetings again Keiw1,

You fail to realise that the JWs have drifted away from what is true in this particular matter. To some extent I consider that JWs that have some portion of understanding are to some extent embarrassed by Judge Rutherford's selection of the name of their religion as "Jehovah's Witnesses", supporting this error.

Kind regards
Trevor
God chose the name-Isaiah 43:10, 44:8
 
His labor of Love caused of Him to become our almighty Savior. Jehovah is attribute of God as our savior. Like the word Joshua.
Joshua it comes from the Hebrew name "Yehoshua," meaning "God is deliverance."

God does not have a name like "hey you" Gertrude, George, Billy Bob, Sussy Mae.

He has no gods before him in the likeness of dying mankind . He knows who he is and as recorded it as a written law. . He is the lamb slain from the foundation the six days he did works. The work of the Father was demonstrated in the garden of Gethsemane and the hill of shame the cross and lastly the Tomb. .

Isaiah 12:2 Behold, God is my salvation; I will trust, and not be afraid: for the Lord Jehovah is my strength and my song; he also is become my salvation.

No secret names or secret spelling. Mysteries are found in parables

Remember its an evil generation. . natural unconverted mankind that looks to a sign to wonder after "seekers of mysteries" .No signs were given. The mysteries are made known in parables . . God's will reveals his mysteries just as he did to Peter . . when Satan took advantage and bore false pride with Peter our brother in the lord . Peter rebuking eternal God. It would seem Peter learned his lesson he is not the revealer of the mysteries of will of God. Satan trying to establish a Jewish man as King of kings. When the veil which representing the circummsion of the fist born son of God there was no Jewish man as King of kings sting in the holy place .

Satan fell he could no longer deceive all the nations of the world that eternal God is a dying Jewish man. He will ne loosed for a short time at the end of days to again deceive all the nations God is a Jewish man as King of King and Lord of lords .

Mathew 16: 17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Peter deceived turned it upside down inspired from dying earth of the devil not from heaven our invisible head. Peter did not reveal it to Peter . Only God not seen can reveal his eternal mysteries of his living l will.
This doesn't make much sense
 
Jesus is called "Theou," and that is the exact same term used for God. That fact is repeated dozens of time in the NT. Post 132 is wrong.

That would not be "in the beginning. Logic and reason are our friends.

Colossians 1:15-18
He [Jesus] is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities — all things have been created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. He is also head of the body, the church; and he is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that he himself will come to have first place in everything.

Jesus is the creator of all things. Once again, we find scripture stating things about Jesus that make him equal with God; things that would be completely heretical and render him unable to be Lord and Savior of anything unless true exactly as stated.

I did not ask if salvation was "from" works. I asked if salvation is by works. Stop moving the goal posts and dodging the question asked.

Not a point in dispute. That does not answer the question: Is salvation by works? Can a sinner work his/her way to salvation?
In the Greek lexicons both at John 1:1 and 2 Cor 4:4--(The only word in Greek for either God or god is Theon( Theos)--Thus at both places to show a difference of what one is being called the true God is called Ton Theon= God, both others called Theon to show the difference=god small g.
 
Greetings again Keiw1,
God chose the name-Isaiah 43:10, 44:8
God chose the Name YHWH, not the erroneous representation "Jehovah" which is derived from an incorrect understanding and reading of Strong's #3068 YHWH with the vowel points of Adonai, and also ignores Strong's #3069 YHWH with the vowel points of Elohim as previously explained by me and also by the JW Article in their "Aid to Bible Understanding".

Sorry to disappoint you, but Isaiah 43:10 and 44:8 is NOT speaking about the Modern Day JWs. Isaiah was addressing his contemporaries.

Kind regards
Trevor
 
In the Greek lexicons both at John 1:1 and 2 Cor 4:4--(The only word in Greek for either God or god is Theon( Theos)--Thus at both places to show a difference of what one is being called the true God is called Ton Theon= God, both others called Theon to show the difference=god small g.
No.

That is thinking like a modern reader. Those reading the original texts (assuming they were written in Greek) would have understood both an equality being asserted and an impossible premise being asserted.

In ancient times, especially among the Greek and Roman religions, it was impossible for a human being to literally become gods. When Caesars were deified, for example, that deification did not literally make him a god. It simply promoted him to live among the gods at the foot of Mt. Olympus when he died. Humans are humans and gods are gods. The same holds true in Judaism.

Genesis 1:21-25
God created the great sea monsters and every living creature that moves, with which the waters swarmed after their kind, and every winged bird after its kind; and God saw that it was good. God blessed them, saying, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let birds multiply on the earth." There was evening and there was morning, a fifth day. Then God said, "Let the earth bring forth living creatures after their kind: cattle and creeping things and beasts of the earth after their kind"; and it was so. God made the beasts of the earth after their kind, and the cattle after their kind, and everything that creeps on the ground after its kind; and God saw that it was good.

Each creature, whether animal or vegetable, was created according to its kind. Humans, being made in the image of God produced humans.

Jesus claimed to be something other than a mere god. He himself claimed, and all of the gospel writers and Paul wrote he was God in one way or another. That alone was incomprehensible, completely heretical, and worthy of stoning. Jesus' life was threatened because he claimed to be equal with God (or was perceived to be doing so).

John 5:12-18
They asked him, "Who is the man who said to you, 'Pick up your pallet and walk'?" But the man who was healed did not know who it was, for Jesus had slipped away while there was a crowd in that place. Afterward Jesus *found him in the temple and said to him, "Behold, you have become well; do not sin anymore, so that nothing worse happens to you." The man went away, and told the Jews that it was Jesus who had made him well. For this reason the Jews were persecuting Jesus, because He was doing these things on the Sabbath. But He answered them, "My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working." For this reason, therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.


In the Jewish mind his claim of equality was sufficient to end his life. Little "t" or big "T" is irrelevant. Theou means Theou and Jesus being Theou was a huge problem for the Jews. Hercules was (supposedly) half human. His having a parent who was a god made him strong, but he was still human and suffered all the limitations of being human. The same held true of Perseus, Theseus, Helen, Hippolyta, and all the other demigods. They were not actual gods. In the case of Gilgamesh, Adara, and Utnapishtim and other Mesopotamian demi-gods. In the case of the "logos," (I think I already covered this but perhaps not) logos was logic and the ability to reason. The Greeks thought the gods had bestowed upon humanity the divine gift of reason, and some had more of that ability, and some had less. In Hellenism, Alexander the Great was considered the human with the most logos, a man especially endowed with an extraordinary dose of logos - so much so that he stood as a great mediator between God and man, according to the Jewish Hellenist philosopher Philo. Great man, one capable of doing extraordinary things, but still a human. A god among men who still suffered all the limitations of humanity, including his inevitable death.

John's gospel cr@pped on all of that ancient mythology. Jon did not simply say Jesus had logos; he claimed Jesus was/is THE logos of God. John did not say Jesus had logos sufficient to make him a mediator between God and man, he claimed Jesus is the logos that is Theou - something that could never be said about Alexander, Theseus, Gilgamesh, Fred, or Ethel. Anyone making such a claim could be stoned. So big "T," little "t" proves irrelevant and the Christology anyoone making that argument would be asserting is a pagan christology that is rejected in the Bible.


Jesus, the Son of Theou, was with Theou in the beginning, before anything was made, and he is Theou.

Anyway, that is interpreted it is either a stoning offense or it's true exactly as stated. Because this post is already lengthy, I'm skipping the verses, but there are about a dozen places in the Bible reporting God raised Jesus from the grave. Jesus did not raise himself from the grave. There is, however, at least one verse that appears to draw another heretic comparison between God and human Jesus.

Romans 8:11
But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

The Spirit raised Jesus. That verse, in and of itself cannot decide the matter of Christ's divinity one way or the other but there is something else stated in the epistolary that does,

Romans 8:9
However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.


Verse 9 comes before verse 11. In other words, Paul has just drawn an untenable, heretical equality between Jesus and God claiming those two share a Spirit. Jesus is not especially endowed with an extra dose of God's Spirit (like the prophets), the Spirit is not simply or solely "upon" Jesus but Jesus' spirit is the same Spirit as Theou's Spirit. That cannot be in Monotheistic Judaism, unless true. Paul instantly makes himself a heretic (along with John), qualifies himself for stoning, and disqualifies Jesus as any Lord or Savior.

A heretic cannot be the savior of anyone from anything.
In the Greek lexicons both at John 1:1 and 2 Cor 4:4--(The only word in Greek for either God or god is Theon( Theos)--Thus at both places to show a difference of what one is being called the true God is called Ton Theon= God, both others called Theon to show the difference=god small g.
That is abjectly incorrect when meted out to its culturally and logically necessary conclusions given the context in which those texts were written.

You are arguing a pagan Christology, not a biblical one.

We're now eight pages into this thread and the matter of divine comparison is not being addressed. Every single divine comparison is heretical unless true and "special endowment" is not sufficient to explain away the real divinity or the heresy.
 
Greetings again Keiw1,

God chose the Name YHWH, not the erroneous representation "Jehovah" which is derived from an incorrect understanding and reading of Strong's #3068 YHWH with the vowel points of Adonai, and also ignores Strong's #3069 YHWH with the vowel points of Elohim as previously explained by me and also by the JW Article in their "Aid to Bible Understanding".

Sorry to disappoint you, but Isaiah 43:10 and 44:8 is NOT speaking about the Modern Day JWs. Isaiah was addressing his contemporaries.

Kind regards
Trevor
God chooses to be identified by one of his immutable attributes

Isaiah 12:2 Behold, God is my salvation; I will trust, and not be afraid: for the Lord Jehovah is my strength and my song; he also is become my salvation.

Jehovah a source of salvation . One of the many attributes called names He raises up all things written in the law and prophets(sola scriptura) above any attribute. He himself subject to his living word

Psalm 138:2 I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.
 
Greetings again Keiw1,

God chose the Name YHWH, not the erroneous representation "Jehovah" which is derived from an incorrect understanding and reading of Strong's #3068 YHWH with the vowel points of Adonai, and also ignores Strong's #3069 YHWH with the vowel points of Elohim as previously explained by me and also by the JW Article in their "Aid to Bible Understanding".

Sorry to disappoint you, but Isaiah 43:10 and 44:8 is NOT speaking about the Modern Day JWs. Isaiah was addressing his contemporaries.

Kind regards
Trevor
Jehovah is God-He will be telling all soon.
 
No.

That is thinking like a modern reader. Those reading the original texts (assuming they were written in Greek) would have understood both an equality being asserted and an impossible premise being asserted.

In ancient times, especially among the Greek and Roman religions, it was impossible for a human being to literally become gods. When Caesars were deified, for example, that deification did not literally make him a god. It simply promoted him to live among the gods at the foot of Mt. Olympus when he died. Humans are humans and gods are gods. The same holds true in Judaism.

Genesis 1:21-25
God created the great sea monsters and every living creature that moves, with which the waters swarmed after their kind, and every winged bird after its kind; and God saw that it was good. God blessed them, saying, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let birds multiply on the earth." There was evening and there was morning, a fifth day. Then God said, "Let the earth bring forth living creatures after their kind: cattle and creeping things and beasts of the earth after their kind"; and it was so. God made the beasts of the earth after their kind, and the cattle after their kind, and everything that creeps on the ground after its kind; and God saw that it was good.

Each creature, whether animal or vegetable, was created according to its kind. Humans, being made in the image of God produced humans.

Jesus claimed to be something other than a mere god. He himself claimed, and all of the gospel writers and Paul wrote he was God in one way or another. That alone was incomprehensible, completely heretical, and worthy of stoning. Jesus' life was threatened because he claimed to be equal with God (or was perceived to be doing so).

John 5:12-18
They asked him, "Who is the man who said to you, 'Pick up your pallet and walk'?" But the man who was healed did not know who it was, for Jesus had slipped away while there was a crowd in that place. Afterward Jesus *found him in the temple and said to him, "Behold, you have become well; do not sin anymore, so that nothing worse happens to you." The man went away, and told the Jews that it was Jesus who had made him well. For this reason the Jews were persecuting Jesus, because He was doing these things on the Sabbath. But He answered them, "My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working." For this reason, therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.


In the Jewish mind his claim of equality was sufficient to end his life. Little "t" or big "T" is irrelevant. Theou means Theou and Jesus being Theou was a huge problem for the Jews. Hercules was (supposedly) half human. His having a parent who was a god made him strong, but he was still human and suffered all the limitations of being human. The same held true of Perseus, Theseus, Helen, Hippolyta, and all the other demigods. They were not actual gods. In the case of Gilgamesh, Adara, and Utnapishtim and other Mesopotamian demi-gods. In the case of the "logos," (I think I already covered this but perhaps not) logos was logic and the ability to reason. The Greeks thought the gods had bestowed upon humanity the divine gift of reason, and some had more of that ability, and some had less. In Hellenism, Alexander the Great was considered the human with the most logos, a man especially endowed with an extraordinary dose of logos - so much so that he stood as a great mediator between God and man, according to the Jewish Hellenist philosopher Philo. Great man, one capable of doing extraordinary things, but still a human. A god among men who still suffered all the limitations of humanity, including his inevitable death.

John's gospel cr@pped on all of that ancient mythology. Jon did not simply say Jesus had logos; he claimed Jesus was/is THE logos of God. John did not say Jesus had logos sufficient to make him a mediator between God and man, he claimed Jesus is the logos that is Theou - something that could never be said about Alexander, Theseus, Gilgamesh, Fred, or Ethel. Anyone making such a claim could be stoned. So big "T," little "t" proves irrelevant and the Christology anyoone making that argument would be asserting is a pagan christology that is rejected in the Bible.


Jesus, the Son of Theou, was with Theou in the beginning, before anything was made, and he is Theou.

Anyway, that is interpreted it is either a stoning offense or it's true exactly as stated. Because this post is already lengthy, I'm skipping the verses, but there are about a dozen places in the Bible reporting God raised Jesus from the grave. Jesus did not raise himself from the grave. There is, however, at least one verse that appears to draw another heretic comparison between God and human Jesus.

Romans 8:11
But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

The Spirit raised Jesus. That verse, in and of itself cannot decide the matter of Christ's divinity one way or the other but there is something else stated in the epistolary that does,

Romans 8:9
However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.


Verse 9 comes before verse 11. In other words, Paul has just drawn an untenable, heretical equality between Jesus and God claiming those two share a Spirit. Jesus is not especially endowed with an extra dose of God's Spirit (like the prophets), the Spirit is not simply or solely "upon" Jesus but Jesus' spirit is the same Spirit as Theou's Spirit. That cannot be in Monotheistic Judaism, unless true. Paul instantly makes himself a heretic (along with John), qualifies himself for stoning, and disqualifies Jesus as any Lord or Savior.

A heretic cannot be the savior of anyone from anything.

That is abjectly incorrect when meted out to its culturally and logically necessary conclusions given the context in which those texts were written.

You are arguing a pagan Christology, not a biblical one.

We're now eight pages into this thread and the matter of divine comparison is not being addressed. Every single divine comparison is heretical unless true and "special endowment" is not sufficient to explain away the real divinity or the heresy.
When the protestants translated-1300,s, only the Latin Vulgate remained=Catholicism translating, the false religion( 2 Thess 2:3) that created a trinity god at the councils they held. Its recorded history-undeniable.
 
When the protestants translated-1300,s, only the Latin Vulgate remained=Catholicism translating, the false religion( 2 Thess 2:3) that created a trinity god at the councils they held. Its recorded history-undeniable.
Irrelevant. No one here has mentioned anything about Latin anything. And since I see there's a chronic unwillingness or inability to address the facts in evidence (Posts 6, 42,115, 120, 121, 128, 141, 146) I'll be moving on.
 
Irrelevant. No one here has mentioned anything about Latin anything. And since I see there's a chronic unwillingness or inability to address the facts in evidence (Posts 6, 42,115, 120, 121, 128, 141, 146) I'll be moving on.
You mean you have no clue as to the reality of history so you will run. I shared--recorded history-FACT.
 
Back
Top