GOD’S TIMETABLE FOR CREATION

[Frank Robert]

Those flood stories are wisper down the lane accounts develped after the dividing of the people at the Tower of Babel...that is why they bear striking similarities.

Now you are denying that the those floods predated Noah's flood. The historical and scientific evidence provide a much different story.

The Flood: Mesopotamian Archaeological Evidence | National Center for Science Education

The assertion of some historians and archaeologists that a great flood devastated a region of Mesopotamia at the dawn of history and that this event was the origin of the biblical Flood story has become a curious backwater in the debate over creationism.

ncse.ngo

Similarities between the account of Noah's Flood in the Hebrew scriptures and the Mesopotamian flood tales are great and obvious. Despite some lesser differences, there is no reasoned body of opinion that claims they are unrelated. The accepted view is that the archetypal account originated in Mesopotamia. The earliest extant Mesopotamian version is far older than the biblical account, and the Flood story bears specifically Mesopotamian details that cannot reasonably be supposed to derive from a Hebrew original. Near Eastern scholars have consequently turned to the cuneiform sources.​

​

The most well-known and detailed Mesopotamian account of the Flood is found in the Gilgamesh Epic (Tigay, 1982, pp. 214-240; for other accounts, see: Lambert and Millard, 1969; Kramer, 1967). Even this account, however, seems to have been somewhat abbreviated because of the literary role that it plays within the broader story of Gilgamesh's confrontation with mortality. Closely parallel are the lengthy but, in part, ill-preserved accounts in the Atra-hasis Epic and the shorter and incomplete Sumerian Deluge Myth. Briefer references to the Flood serve as prefaces to several other myths. Myths are frequently introduced by an abbreviated account of some monumental mythic event, such as the Flood or creation itself. There are other scattered fragments, and a version of the Mesopotamian Flood tale even survives in the sadly incomplete fragments of the writings of the Babylonian priest Berossus, who lived in the late fourth and early third centuries BCE (Lambert and Millard, 1969; Kramer, 1967)....​

What amazes me are the loops and hoops that literalists need to jump through to maintain their version of history. As I said before, I am not concerned with what people believe, I am simply pointing out the discrepancies and providing references to the historical and or scientific data.

 

[CrowCross]

I have never said the flood wasn't read. I have said the flood was not global. The extent of the flood which is described as "upon the earth" (Gen 6:17) is the same as the extent of the famine at the time of Joseph in Egypt (Gen 41:56-57). It seems certain that neither you nor anyone else would claim that a global earth was intended in God's declaration that, Gen 41:57 The people of all the earth came to Egypt to buy grain from Joseph, because the famine was severe in all the earth.

Yes, it is true 776. erets is used to not always speak of the entire earth. As an example we see in Genesis 1:1 where it says God created heavens and the earth "erets" and it means the entire planet. So, once again the word can mean both...local or entire planet.

The question is, what meaning of "earth" is Genesis speaking of? Does Genesis present it as a localized area or does the language of Genesis present it as the entire planet?

The bible tells us the following...

17And behold, I will bring floodwaters upon the earth to destroy every creature under the heavens ...........the heavens in the bible seems to be describing something more than a local heaven over a specific location on the face of the earth.

4 For seven days from now I will send rain on the earth for forty days and forty nights, and I will wipe from the face of the earth every living thing I have made.”..............Face of the earth sounds a bit more encompassing than a local area.

I could have stopped with what I presented above...bt the bible continues with more of the description that has language of a flood being more than local.

Here's more from the Genesis description:

17For forty days the flood kept coming on the earth, and the waters rose and lifted the ark high above the earth. 18So the waters continued to surge and rise greatly on the earth, and the ark floated on the surface of the waters. 19Finally, the waters completely inundated the earth, so that all the high mountains under all the heavens were covered.

20The waters rose and covered the mountaintops to a depth of fifteen cubits. 21And every living thing that moved upon the earth perished

....The ark was lifted high above the earth...waters continued to rise as they surged upon the earth...the earth was completely "inundated", so much the mountains were covered.....HOW does this description describe a local flood?

At best you could agree that the bible speaks of a world wide flood...and you believe it was a mythological event of some sorts...but, there is no denying that the bible was speaking of a world wide flood.

 

[CrowCross]

Now you are denying that the those floods predated Noah's flood. The historical and scientific evidence provide a much different story.

The Flood: Mesopotamian Archaeological Evidence | National Center for Science Education

The assertion of some historians and archaeologists that a great flood devastated a region of Mesopotamia at the dawn of history and that this event was the origin of the biblical Flood story has become a curious backwater in the debate over creationism.

ncse.ngo

Similarities between the account of Noah's Flood in the Hebrew scriptures and the Mesopotamian flood tales are great and obvious. Despite some lesser differences, there is no reasoned body of opinion that claims they are unrelated. The accepted view is that the archetypal account originated in Mesopotamia. The earliest extant Mesopotamian version is far older than the biblical account, and the Flood story bears specifically Mesopotamian details that cannot reasonably be supposed to derive from a Hebrew original. Near Eastern scholars have consequently turned to the cuneiform sources.​

​

The most well-known and detailed Mesopotamian account of the Flood is found in the Gilgamesh Epic (Tigay, 1982, pp. 214-240; for other accounts, see: Lambert and Millard, 1969; Kramer, 1967). Even this account, however, seems to have been somewhat abbreviated because of the literary role that it plays within the broader story of Gilgamesh's confrontation with mortality. Closely parallel are the lengthy but, in part, ill-preserved accounts in the Atra-hasis Epic and the shorter and incomplete Sumerian Deluge Myth. Briefer references to the Flood serve as prefaces to several other myths. Myths are frequently introduced by an abbreviated account of some monumental mythic event, such as the Flood or creation itself. There are other scattered fragments, and a version of the Mesopotamian Flood tale even survives in the sadly incomplete fragments of the writings of the Babylonian priest Berossus, who lived in the late fourth and early third centuries BCE (Lambert and Millard, 1969; Kramer, 1967)....​

What amazes me are the loops and hoops that literalists need to jump through to maintain their version of history. As I said before, I am not concerned with what people believe, I am simply pointing out the discrepancies and providing references to the historical and or scientific data.

"Now you are denying that the those floods predated Noah's flood. ".....yes I am. Actually those flood were Noahs flood, the flood of legends from all over ancient civilizations spread across the entire planet to all kinds of people after the Tower of Babel. As I said the accounts were a whisper down the lane distortion of the actual flood of Noah.

 

[JIM]

At best you could agree that the bible speaks of a world wide flood...and you believe it was a mythological event of some sorts...but, there is no denying that the bible was speaking of a world wide flood.

Of course there is. Just as the Bible wasn't speaking of a world wide draught in Genesis 41.

 

[EarlyActs]

I don't recall saying there was an ark.

There are many different ways that the Bible is interpreted. The most common include:
Literal interpretation
Allegorical interpretation
Moral interpretation
Historical interpretation
Theological interpretation

There is no one right way to interpret the Bible. Different denominations may have different approaches to interpretation. Some Christians believe that the Bible is the literal word of God and should be interpreted literally, while others believe that the Bible is a complex text that can be interpreted in many different ways.

Again, we should focus on what we have in common and not on differences that do not affect salvation.

The Cataclysm has many moving parts to it. For ex., pangea was splitting in the process, which many Christian geologists think took place over 400 years (but the 'energy' of the event is a spike at the beginning). This makes 'the whole world' a curious phrase: at the beginning or at the end?

In ancient cataclysm narrative studies, we find that a collapse of ice about 7000 years ago for EurAsia is pretty easily established and big enough to generate several accounts, as far south as the Australian aborigines ('when we escaped the ice, the water at that reef north of our lands was 400 ft lower and we walked across'). But why would it be any different for N. America? Again, it might be the shape of pangea at the time.

We should keep Foyle's rule of thumb as a police detective: 'there is only one explanation.'

 

[Frank Robert]

"Now you are denying that the those floods predated Noah's flood. ".....yes I am. Actually those flood were Noahs flood, the flood of legends from all over ancient civilizations spread across the entire planet to all kinds of people after the Tower of Babel. As I said the accounts were a whisper down the lane distortion of the actual flood of Noah.

Now you are attempting to substantiate Noah's flood with an equally unsubstantiated claim for the Tower of Babel story. There is no historical evidence for either. Both stories can only be understood as allegorical.

The Sumerian Flood Story That Is Older Than Noah​

The story of Noah’s Ark first appeared around 1,000 BCE in compositions that became part of the Jewish Torah and the Old Testament. Over a thousand years prior to this account, scholars from the ancient Sumerian civilization authored a remarkably similar account of the flood.​

​

In the Sumerian flood story, a hero builds an ark to preserve the species of the Earth from a great "Deluge" (flood) that is sent by the gods. This myth appears in the epic tales of Atrahasis and Gilgamesh around 2,000 BCE, bringing the veracity of the later Biblical account into question....​

Was the Sumerian Flood Story Plagiarized?​

...The similarities and necessary alterations to the Sumerian flood story that appear in the Bible version make it almost indisputable that the latter plagiarized the former. In other words, the Sumerian flood story is the original version of Noah's Ark and, without the former, the latter may never have existed.​

Gilgamesh flood myth - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

A much older Cuneiform tablet dating to 1646-1626 B.C., about one-thousand years before the Book of Genesis is believed to have been written, and known as the Epic of Atra-Hasis describing a great flood was discovered in 1898. This tablet was created about one-thousand years before the Book of Genesis is believed to have been written. J. P. Morgan acquired it and today it is in the Morgan Library & Museum.​

 

[CrowCross]

Of course there is. Just as the Bible wasn't speaking of a world wide draught in Genesis 41.

OK, your grasping....Have you ever read the verse? Personally I don't think you have...so here it is:

29Behold, seven years of great abundance are coming throughout the land of Egypt, 30but seven years of famine will follow them. Then all the abundance in the land of Egypt will be forgotten, and the famine will devastate the land. 31The abundance in the land will not be remembered, since the famine that follows it will be so severe.

......did you ntice it said "throughout the land of Egypt,"....and not the entire world like the flod account presents.

Buy hey, thanks for your input.

 

[CrowCross]

In the Sumerian flood story, a hero builds an ark to preserve the species of the Earth from a great "Deluge" (flood) that is sent by the gods. This myth appears in the epic tales of Atrahasis and Gilgamesh around 2,000 BCE, bringing the veracity of the later Biblical account into question....

Well how 'bout that....even that account based upon Genesis spoke of a world wide flood.

This tablet was created about one-thousand years before the Book of Genesis is believed to have been written.

How was it dated?

 

[JIM]

OK, your grasping....Have you ever read the verse? Personally I don't think you have...so here it is:

29Behold, seven years of great abundance are coming throughout the land of Egypt, 30but seven years of famine will follow them. Then all the abundance in the land of Egypt will be forgotten, and the famine will devastate the land. 31The abundance in the land will not be remembered, since the famine that follows it will be so severe.

......did you ntice it said "throughout the land of Egypt,"....and not the entire world like the flod account presents.

Buy hey, thanks for your input.

Talk about not ever reading the verse ! ! ! Why did you stop at verse 31?

Gen 41:56 When the famine was spread over all the face of the earth, then Joseph opened all the storehouses, and sold to the Egyptians; and the famine was severe in the land of Egypt.
Gen 41:57 The people of all the earth came to Egypt to buy grain from Joseph, because the famine was severe in all the earth.

 

[Frank Robert]

Well how 'bout that....even that account based upon Genesis spoke of a world wide flood.

You have it backwards. If you disagree, do your own research and post your findings and sources.

How was it dated?

Recent Scholarly Perspective On Genesis

Genesis is the first book of the Pentateuch, a five-part collection on the birth of the nation of Israel – from Creation to Israel entering Canaan​

​

Authorship is traditionally attributed to Moses, following the exodus of Israel from Egypt, around 1400 BCE.​

​

Most modern scholars accept that Genesis is a redacted literary work, reaching its final version as late as post-exilic Israel around 400 BCE.​

​

The question of when these works were created.

Scholars in the first half of the 20th century concluded that the Yahwist source was a product of the monarchic period, specifically at the court of Solomon, 10th century BC, and the Priestly work a product of the middle of the 5th century BC (with claims that the author was Ezra). However, more recent thinking is that the Yahwist source dates to from either just before or during the Babylonian captivity in the 6th century BC, and that the Priestly final edition was made late in the Exilic period or soon after.[4] The almost complete absence of all the characters and incidents mentioned in primeval history from the rest of the Hebrew Bible has led a sizeable minority of scholars to conclude that these chapters were composed much later than those that follow, possibly in the 3rd century BC.[13] By comparing Dead Sea level indications in chapter 14 of Genesis Amos Frumkin and Yoel Elitzur suggest the composition dating between 1500 and 1200 BC.[14]​

​

Again: If you disagree, do your own research and post your findings and sources.

 

[CrowCross]

Talk about not ever reading the verse ! ! ! Why did you stop at verse 31?

Gen 41:56 When the famine was spread over all the face of the earth, then Joseph opened all the storehouses, and sold to the Egyptians; and the famine was severe in the land of Egypt.
Gen 41:57 The people of all the earth came to Egypt to buy grain from Joseph, because the famine was severe in all the earth.

OK, like the flood the famine was world wide. Unlike the flood account I could go either way on this verse. I have no problem with a world wide famine. Do you?

Once again, thanks for your info.

 

[JIM]

OK, like the flood the famine was world wide. Unlike the flood account I could go either way on this verse. I have no problem with a world wide famine. Do you?

Once again, thanks for your info.

Do you have a problem with "The people of all the earth came to Egypt to buy grain from Joseph"?

 

[CrowCross]

Do you have a problem with "The people of all the earth came to Egypt to buy grain from Joseph"?

No. Why would I?

I wish the famine account included terms such as....the earth was completely "inundated", so much the mountains were covered...like it did with the description of the world wide flood. This way we could know for sure that like the flood the famine was world wide.

 

[CrowCross]

You have it backwards. If you disagree, do your own research and post your findings and sources.

Recent Scholarly Perspective On Genesis

Genesis is the first book of the Pentateuch, a five-part collection on the birth of the nation of Israel – from Creation to Israel entering Canaan​

​

Authorship is traditionally attributed to Moses, following the exodus of Israel from Egypt, around 1400 BCE.​

​

Most modern scholars accept that Genesis is a redacted literary work, reaching its final version as late as post-exilic Israel around 400 BCE.​

​

The question of when these works were created.

Scholars in the first half of the 20th century concluded that the Yahwist source was a product of the monarchic period, specifically at the court of Solomon, 10th century BC, and the Priestly work a product of the middle of the 5th century BC (with claims that the author was Ezra). However, more recent thinking is that the Yahwist source dates to from either just before or during the Babylonian captivity in the 6th century BC, and that the Priestly final edition was made late in the Exilic period or soon after.[4] The almost complete absence of all the characters and incidents mentioned in primeval history from the rest of the Hebrew Bible has led a sizeable minority of scholars to conclude that these chapters were composed much later than those that follow, possibly in the 3rd century BC.[13] By comparing Dead Sea level indications in chapter 14 of Genesis Amos Frumkin and Yoel Elitzur suggest the composition dating between 1500 and 1200 BC.[14]​

​

Again: If you disagree, do your own research and post your findings and sources.

Thanks for the history lesson....but, so what?

 

[Frank Robert]

Thanks for the history lesson....but, so what?

You asked how the Book of Genesis was dated in response to my claim that a Cuneiform tablet of the Sumerian flood predates Noah's flood.

A much older Cuneiform tablet dating to 1646-1626 B.C., about one-thousand years before the Book of Genesis is believed to have been written, and known as the Epic of Atra-Hasis describing a great flood was discovered in 1898. This tablet was created about one-thousand years before the Book of Genesis is believed to have been written. J. P. Morgan acquired it and today it is in the Morgan Library & Museum.

The legend of the Great Flood almost certainly has prebiblical origins, rooted in the ancient civilizations of Mesopotamia. The Sumerian Epic of Gilgamesh dates back nearly 5,000 years and is thought to be perhaps the oldest written tale on the planet

 

[EarlyActs]

Now you are attempting to substantiate Noah's flood with an equally unsubstantiated claim for the Tower of Babel story. There is no historical evidence for either. Both stories can only be understood as allegorical.

The Sumerian Flood Story That Is Older Than Noah​

The story of Noah’s Ark first appeared around 1,000 BCE in compositions that became part of the Jewish Torah and the Old Testament. Over a thousand years prior to this account, scholars from the ancient Sumerian civilization authored a remarkably similar account of the flood.​

​

In the Sumerian flood story, a hero builds an ark to preserve the species of the Earth from a great "Deluge" (flood) that is sent by the gods. This myth appears in the epic tales of Atrahasis and Gilgamesh around 2,000 BCE, bringing the veracity of the later Biblical account into question....​

Was the Sumerian Flood Story Plagiarized?​

...The similarities and necessary alterations to the Sumerian flood story that appear in the Bible version make it almost indisputable that the latter plagiarized the former. In other words, the Sumerian flood story is the original version of Noah's Ark and, without the former, the latter may never have existed.​

Gilgamesh flood myth - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

A much older Cuneiform tablet dating to 1646-1626 B.C., about one-thousand years before the Book of Genesis is believed to have been written, and known as the Epic of Atra-Hasis describing a great flood was discovered in 1898. This tablet was created about one-thousand years before the Book of Genesis is believed to have been written. J. P. Morgan acquired it and today it is in the Morgan Library & Museum.​

On youtube, just put in ancient flood narratives and you'll see there is far more material than you have mentioned here. The thing is everywhere, and usually 7-10K ago. See D Montgomery, UW, "The Church's preservation of geologic knowledge" a Harvard U lecture, and go to about the 10th minute to his chart. The features of world narratives completely defy it being confined to one area.

It may be possible that the tower just referred to one of the many and to a local one, because there are many, but they were certainly copied and have the staircase theme that shows again in Jacob's wrestling incident, and Jesus in John 2.

See Malone MOSES CONTROVERSY on the dating of Genesis. To start with, the oral narrative goes back to the beginning, as seen by the Cassuto study (FROM ADAM TO NOAH), and there was no written form until Joseph in 1400 but that is simply transcribing the oral narratives with an alphabet worked out and a written form to work with.

 

[EarlyActs]

You asked how the Book of Genesis was dated in response to my claim that a Cuneiform tablet of the Sumerian flood predates Noah's flood.


The legend of the Great Flood almost certainly has prebiblical origins, rooted in the ancient civilizations of Mesopotamia. The Sumerian Epic of Gilgamesh dates back nearly 5,000 years and is thought to be perhaps the oldest written tale on the planet

Both British curators in P. James-Griffiths "Tracing Genesis Through History" (youtube, toward the end) say that the Biblical account is the source of all.

 

[Frank Robert]

Both British curators in P. James-Griffiths "Tracing Genesis Through History" (youtube, toward the end) say that the Biblical account is the source of all.

Pleaseeeeeee don't set people on a wild goose chase

On youtube, just put in ancient flood narratives and you'll see there is far more material than you have mentioned here. The thing is everywhere, and usually 7-10K ago. See D Montgomery, UW, "The Church's preservation of geologic knowledge" a Harvard U lecture, and go to about the 10th minute to his chart. The features of world narratives completely defy it being confined to one area.

It may be possible that the tower just referred to one of the many and to a local one, because there are many, but they were certainly copied and have the staircase theme that shows again in Jacob's wrestling incident, and Jesus in John 2.

See Malone MOSES CONTROVERSY on the dating of Genesis. To start with, the oral narrative goes back to the beginning, as seen by the Cassuto study (FROM ADAM TO NOAH), and there was no written form until Joseph in 1400 but that is simply transcribing the oral narratives with an alphabet worked out and a written form to work with.

If you want to make a claim make the claim and support it with links to the historical and/or scientific evidence.

 

[EarlyActs]

Pleaseeeeeee don't set people on a wild goose chase


If you want to make a claim make the claim and support it with links to the historical and/or scientific evidence.

what chase? Why would you want to hear 2 British curators weigh in without context? I gave names, titles.

Montgomery has the historical/scientific evidence. Just look at the hundreds of docs at Youtube. Not all equal quality of course.

Cassuto is a Hebrew text scholar and rabbi who imploded JEPD and all that late nonsense. He showed this by explaining the recitation practices seen in the text. Malone's documentary is 1.5 hours and interviews prob 20 specialists. Also one U of Toronto professor explains how his mentor's class was laughing aloud one day as he walked by. The reason was that the mentor was so please about how long Cassuto's work had been buried by U of Toronto for about 15 years--including those years when the prof studied there. Like it was a college frat joke. So the prof found out 1, that he had a short-changed education and 2, that his mentor actually lead his students in comic villification. Not science.

 

[CrowCross]

You asked how the Book of Genesis was dated in response to my claim that a Cuneiform tablet of the Sumerian flood predates Noah's flood.


The legend of the Great Flood almost certainly has prebiblical origins, rooted in the ancient civilizations of Mesopotamia. The Sumerian Epic of Gilgamesh dates back nearly 5,000 years and is thought to be perhaps the oldest written tale on the planet

There is no pre biblical time. Genesis starts out with...In the beginning...