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GOD’S TIMETABLE FOR CREATION

There is no pre biblical time. Genesis starts out with...In the beginning...
We were discussing which came first, the Sumerian flood or the Biblical flood. My claim was on the date of the Mesopotamian flood story, the Sumerian flood tale predates Genesis and Noah's flood.

The Sumerian flood story is told in a single cuneiform tablet, that has been dated to ~1600 bce. Since Moses lived between the 14th–13th century bce and the Bible did not reach its final version till ~400 bce it is obvious that the Sumerian flood predates Noah's flood.
 
There is no pre biblical time. Genesis starts out with...In the beginning...

Yes, the oral narrative dates from the beginning; Adam would explain to sons; they would explain to their sons; it would keep on collecting, with some interruption at the flood. But there is no written doc until Joseph and the forming of Hebrew script at his time.

Perhaps our friend Frank was not thinking in terms of an oral narrative being passed down, as though the account was unknown until the time of the temple etc, which is not the case, nor has any society around the world done that. They all have oral-then-written accounts from earliest times. The Quileute of WA state for example, have an oral account they date back to 10K ago, but also have a 'time of change' event for the Cataclysm.
 
We were discussing which came first, the Sumerian flood or the Biblical flood. My claim was on the date of the Mesopotamian flood story, the Sumerian flood tale predates Genesis and Noah's flood.

The Sumerian flood story is told in a single cuneiform tablet, that has been dated to ~1600 bce. Since Moses lived between the 14th–13th century bce and the Bible did not reach its final version till ~400 bce it is obvious that the Sumerian flood predates Noah's flood.


That's if you go by written docs which is not how the material came. See Cassuto FROM ADAM TO NOAH for an introduction to the recitation and transmission aspects. And Malone THE MOSES CONTROVERSY doc. And (if you can find it) Waltke (Regent College, Hebrew) CREATION AND CHAOS.

If you watch Malone, you will see that he interviews the usual scholars in London, Tel Aviv and Germany, and they are unable to answer very simple questions about the transmission.

As a comparison, notice the first day of the "New Testament." It is not written form first. That's later in the first decade. The first thing you have is the extended oral teaching period of 40 days, and the evidence of which OT passages were used (from the 40 days teaching) is the OT quotes of Peter's 1st 3 talks.
 
That's if you go by written docs which is not how the material came.
The Epic of Gilgamesh, dated ~1600 bce, is our oldest surviving written document. It is also both historical and physical evidence.
See Cassuto FROM ADAM TO NOAH for an introduction to the recitation and transmission aspects. And Malone THE MOSES CONTROVERSY doc. And (if you can find it) Waltke (Regent College, Hebrew) CREATION AND CHAOS.
The commentary and the doc may have historical-philological and/or apologetic merit.
If you watch Malone, you will see that he interviews the usual scholars in London, Tel Aviv and Germany, and they are unable to answer very simple questions about the transmission.
If you can make a case for how "not being able to answer questions" is evidence that Noah's flood preceded Gilgamesh, then make it.
As a comparison, notice the first day of the "New Testament." It is not written form first. That's later in the first decade. The first thing you have is the extended oral teaching period of 40 days, and the evidence of which OT passages were used (from the 40 days teaching) is the OT quotes of Peter's 1st 3 talks
If you can make a case for how "oral teaching" is evidence that Noah's flood preceded Gilgamesh, then make it.

Did Moses exist?

Generally, the majority of scholars see the biblical Moses as a legendary figure, whilst retaining the possibility that Moses or a Moses-like figure existed in the 13th century BCE.[14][15][16][17][18] Rabbinical Judaism calculated a lifespan of Moses corresponding to 1391–1271 BCE;[19] Jerome suggested 1592 BCE,[20] and James Ussher suggested 1571 BCE as his birth year.[21][note 2]
Egyptologist, Jan Assmann argues that it cannot be known if Moses ever lived because there are no traces of him outside tradition.​
 
The Epic of Gilgamesh, dated ~1600 bce, is our oldest surviving written document. It is also both historical and physical evidence.

The commentary and the doc may have historical-philological and/or apologetic merit.

If you can make a case for how "not being able to answer questions" is evidence that Noah's flood preceded Gilgamesh, then make it.

If you can make a case for how "oral teaching" is evidence that Noah's flood preceded Gilgamesh, then make it.

Did Moses exist?

Generally, the majority of scholars see the biblical Moses as a legendary figure, whilst retaining the possibility that Moses or a Moses-like figure existed in the 13th century BCE.[14][15][16][17][18] Rabbinical Judaism calculated a lifespan of Moses corresponding to 1391–1271 BCE;[19] Jerome suggested 1592 BCE,[20] and James Ussher suggested 1571 BCE as his birth year.[21][note 2]
Egyptologist, Jan Assmann argues that it cannot be known if Moses ever lived because there are no traces of him outside tradition.​

Sorry I don't do Wikipedia. Surely you have gone for more serious primary sources. The Malone documentary on the various world text experts is about how they cannot answer his counters to the dating of the Hebrew alphabet, not Noah's flood. He shows them the similar Hittite alphabet method, drawn from Greek, and the alignment with the text of Exodus., Most egregious is the German Egyptologist denying Joseph and Israel being in Goshen, but not excavating that additional depth where it was finally located--or concealing it once discovered.

The case for the oral teaching and transmission is that of Cassuto's--that the tribe transmitted all this orally and used the standard recitation practices for generations. The practice and the sections had 4 parts:
1, title (the teacher would call out a title to be recited), like 1:1 or 2:4 or 5:1.
2, pre-existing conditions--because it triggered memory
3, new material
4, summary--because repetition solidifies the memory.
I believe he shows some 30 examples of this method in Genesis. Then when you get to ch 38, Joseph's written account takes over.

We also know that the flood account has an 'iambism' probably also for memory purposes:
A
B
C
D
E
D
C
B
A

This was topical, as I recall from Cassuto, but it might also have had alphabetical patterns that were memory-aids. I don't recall if there was more than one. I don't have the book; it is a theological classic because it exploded JEPD (see above about U Toronto).
But before all that is the logical step that if it was oral, we are no longer dealing with documents, we are not comparing dates of docs. Locally, the Quileute tribe has oral tradition that goes back 10K years, they say, which matches a significant amount of geological and archeological information.

Finally, there wouldn't be preceding narratives. The original oral narrative would have been simultaneous. There might be one written narrative showing in recent discovery over another, but the original narrative was most likely oral and contemporaneous, and from various groups as people spread out over the earth and passed down explanations. See the charts of comparisons of cataclysm features and cultures from many sources (Montgomery, ICR, Sanford).

The Australian aborigines know, for ex., that they started in Africa, needed to escape the ice, and that when they crossed the last passages between islands before solid Australian land, the water level was 400 ft lower during crossing than the final. They also have accounts of gigantism. Those were all features from several thousand years back but were not written down until Europeans met them because there was no need for writing. If you know the sequence of the busting-up of pangea in the Cataclysm and the related events and features, their reduced narrative matches the others.
 
Sorry I don't do Wikipedia.
Sorry that you do not understand the value of Wikipedia.
Surely you have gone for more serious primary sources.
In case you missed it the point that I was making.
Did Moses exist?
Generally, the majority of scholars see the biblical Moses as a legendary figure, whilst retaining the possibility that Moses or a Moses-like figure existed in the 13th century BCE.[14][15][16][17][18] Rabbinical Judaism calculated a lifespan of Moses corresponding to 1391–1271 BCE;[19] Jerome suggested 1592 BCE,[20] and James Ussher suggested 1571 BCE as his birth year.[21][note 2]
In the above you will find eight (8) links plus notes to primary sources. Wikipedia is useful for research as it provides a general overview of most subjects in its scope. Wiki also provides research help.

The Malone documentary on the various world text experts is about how they cannot answer his counters to the dating of the Hebrew alphabet, not Noah's flood. He shows them the similar Hittite alphabet method, drawn from Greek, and the alignment with the text of Exodus., Most egregious is the German Egyptologist denying Joseph and Israel being in Goshen, but not excavating that additional depth where it was finally located--or concealing it once discovered.
Did Malone place any dates for Noah's ark? If he did how did he verify them?
But before all that is the logical step that if it was oral, we are no longer dealing with documents, we are not comparing dates of docs. Locally, the Quileute tribe has oral tradition that goes back 10K years, they say, which matches a significant amount of geological and archeological information.
No one doubts the oral tradition. The problem is that we can not know when Noah's flood entered the tradition. It you have historical data of when it did, let us know. Otherwise the only verifiable dating places Genesis at ~400 bce.

We don't even know if Moses ever lived?
Egyptologist, Jan Assmann argues that it cannot be known if Moses ever lived because there are no traces of him outside tradition.​
Additionally, there are many problems with the biblical story of Moses. For example, there is no mention of Moses in any Egyptian records, and the archaeological evidence does not support the claim that a large number of Israelites were enslaved in Egypt.

The biblical story of Moses contains many of anachronisms, or references to things that did not exist at the time that the events of the story are supposed to have taken place. For example, the biblical story mentions camels, but camels were not introduced to Egypt until centuries after the time of Moses.

The case for the oral teaching and transmission is that of Cassuto's--that the tribe transmitted all this orally and used the standard recitation practices for generations.
Did Cassuto provide any dates for the Noah and Sumerian floods?

All in all, you have not made a case that "oral teaching" is evidence that Noah's flood preceded Gilgamesh." In fact, the Sumerian flood is believed to be much older and is thought to be based on a real flood that occurred in Mesopotamia around 3500 BCE.

The similarities and necessary alterations to the Sumerian flood story that appear in the Bible version make it almost indisputable that the latter plagiarized the former. In other words, the Sumerian flood story is the original version of Noah's Ark and, without the former, the latter may never have existed
 
Did that include all the people from North and South America and Australia?
Seems as if you changed the topic...you should have addressed the comment "the earth was completely "inundated", so much the mountains were covered." and how that reflects the description of a world wide flood compared to a local famine.

Like I said to you earlier, if the famine was world wide as the flood was world wide and expressed by the language of the bible...then that would include North and South America as well as Australia. The question is, was there a population of people in those countries at that period of time.

The take away is that the bible isn't clear if the famine was world wide. The bible is very clear that the flood was world wide.
 
Sorry that you do not understand the value of Wikipedia.

In case you missed it the point that I was making.

In the above you will find eight (8) links plus notes to primary sources. Wikipedia is useful for research as it provides a general overview of most subjects in its scope. Wiki also provides research help.

Did Malone place any dates for Noah's ark? If he did how did he verify them?

No one doubts the oral tradition. The problem is that we can not know when Noah's flood entered the tradition. It you have historical data of when it did, let us know. Otherwise the only verifiable dating places Genesis at ~400 bce.

We don't even know if Moses ever lived?
Egyptologist, Jan Assmann argues that it cannot be known if Moses ever lived because there are no traces of him outside tradition.​
Additionally, there are many problems with the biblical story of Moses. For example, there is no mention of Moses in any Egyptian records, and the archaeological evidence does not support the claim that a large number of Israelites were enslaved in Egypt.

The biblical story of Moses contains many of anachronisms, or references to things that did not exist at the time that the events of the story are supposed to have taken place. For example, the biblical story mentions camels, but camels were not introduced to Egypt until centuries after the time of Moses.


Did Cassuto provide any dates for the Noah and Sumerian floods?

All in all, you have not made a case that "oral teaching" is evidence that Noah's flood preceded Gilgamesh." In fact, the Sumerian flood is believed to be much older and is thought to be based on a real flood that occurred in Mesopotamia around 3500 BCE.

The similarities and necessary alterations to the Sumerian flood story that appear in the Bible version make it almost indisputable that the latter plagiarized the former. In other words, the Sumerian flood story is the original version of Noah's Ark and, without the former, the latter may never have existed

Otherwise the only verifiable dating places Genesis at ~400 bce.
This is nonsense. You haven't followed what Cassuto and Malone are saying.

"Moses" (started as Joseph's collection) puts a date for the flood yes. See the text. Why have generations of your tribe memorize gobbledegook? They memorized the known account, with its before and after specifics.

The variations of the cataclysm narratives (they are all over the world) are not about plagiarism. They didn't compete with each other! They just showed up later in written form when the alphabetic form of writing started showing up when the Hittites brought back the Greek model about 1800. God's intriguing timing to have it there for Joseph.

I got tired of Wikipedia when all the various sources could be as contradictory to each other as they liked, but anything that validated Genesis as is was ruled impossible. I find that the oral transmission model to Joseph and his alphabet based writing is a sound procedure.
 
Otherwise the only verifiable dating places Genesis at ~400 bce.
This is nonsense. You haven't followed what Cassuto and Malone are saying.
I already posted that the commentary and the doc may have some historical-philological and/or apologetic merit. You have not explained how it verifies dating Genesis.
"Moses" (started as Joseph's collection) puts a date for the flood yes.
See the text. Why have generations of your tribe memorize gobbledegook? They memorized the known account, with its before and after specifics.
I think you misunderstand what I am saying. I don't know if Moses existed or not What I am saying is there is no verifiable data the Moses existed out of tradition, just as there is no verifiable evidence for a global flood. Christians are not obligated to believe in these matters because they don't matter for the important matters like believing in Christ and salvation.
The variations of the cataclysm narratives (they are all over the world) are not about plagiarism. They didn't compete with each other! They just showed up later in written form when the alphabetic form of writing started showing up when the Hittites brought back the Greek model about 1800. God's intriguing timing to have it there for Joseph.
That is find, it is also fine that many Christians and others do not share your beliefs.
I got tired of Wikipedia when all the various sources could be as contradictory to each other as they liked, but anything that validated Genesis as is was ruled impossible. I find that the oral transmission model to Joseph and his alphabet based writing is a sound procedure.
That you don't have a use for wiki is not a problem for those that find it a useful tool.
 
I already posted that the commentary and the doc may have some historical-philological and/or apologetic merit. You have not explained how it verifies dating Genesis.

I think you misunderstand what I am saying. I don't know if Moses existed or not What I am saying is there is no verifiable data the Moses existed out of tradition, just as there is no verifiable evidence for a global flood. Christians are not obligated to believe in these matters because they don't matter for the important matters like believing in Christ and salvation.

That is find, it is also fine that many Christians and others do not share your beliefs.

That you don't have a use for wiki is not a problem for those that find it a useful tool.

The "dating" of Genesis the document (not the orals) is Joseph. He took everything and wrote it down. The orals date back much earlier.

You have no idea what you are saying about a lack of evidence for a global flood. As far as I know all cultures have a record of it, anecdotes of it, from about 5-10000 years back. Some may only describe local features, but they are describing things so large that they could not be merely local. The 1st 10 mins of Dr. Montgomery's lecture to Harvard will clear this up. He immediately knew that no annual or even 100 year even could explain the size of the lake that burst in India, coupled with all the local legends which the locals were speaking of. That's why he formed his chart seen at the 10th min.
Pellegrini's 1859 study of the plates, which verified Genesis, was buried by the Huxley plan to push gradualism everywhere "and finally get rid of the Old Bugger." Only one small Paris publisher would handle Pellegrini. We have 150 year of worthless science because of the Huxleys and their world-control dreams.

The NT is not neo-orthodox, which is what you mean about dumping Genesis historically but retaining the "salvation" parts. Here are titles by Dr. Schaeffer which you should revisit:
THE GOD WHO IS THERE
HE IS THERE AND HE IS NOT SILENT
HOW SHOULD WE THEN LIVE?
NO FINAL CONFLICT
Schaeffer was probably the highest profile writer and evangelist after Lewis died, for the mid-late 20th century. If you read the account of the ministry developing (L'ABRI by his wife), he would almost immediately explain to people in new audiences that the Bible is not 'historically-false, but pastorally-true' nor is there any use to that. It collapses on itself. Mt 24 becomes meaningless because the flood never happened, yet he is warning Jerusalem about being destroyed in 40 years! What sense is that?. 2 Peter 3 becomes meaningless for the same reason and on and on. Neo-orthodoxy was born of late 19th cent. German disbelief (or, very convenient for the world-dominating racism of ORIGINS!--which became the 3rd Reich in all its "glory.").

In Mk 2 and parallels, there is the miracle of the paralytic that is bound to a claim about forgiving sins as the son of Man. They stand together or they fall together, he knew exactly what he was doing there. That's how NT truth is. It is not fractured by being historically false but 'spiritually true'.

To show the awkward sources of neo-orthodoxy even further, Lyell proposed the same thing. He said he did not want London Sunday Schools to stop teaching Genesis on his account (his gradualist theory), because he had seen what happens to kids when the basis of the 10 Commands no longer matters: the 10 Commands no longer matter!

My novel has a 6 page bibliography if you want some extended resources to read. M. Sanford DELUGE OF SUSPICIONS at Amazon. Or I can paste the list here. Yes, it is a crime mystery in the foreground. But the same questions are there. And it may be a more enjoyable read than the usual scientific paper. Even the Genesis Apologetics doc "Noah's Flood and Plate Tectonics" is only 20 minutes but above my technical level! At Youtube.
 
The "dating" of Genesis the document (not the orals) is Joseph. He took everything and wrote it down. The orals date back much earlier.
The Old Testament was compiled from an oral accounts between 1500 BC and 400 BC.

The question is how much of the Old Testament is historically accurate?

According to Biblical accounts the earth was created on 4004 bce and the flood was 2348 bce. We know today that earth is 4.5 billion years old. begining from the perspetive of a 2000 year old worlds, how can you account for the accuracy of Joseph's timeline?
You have no idea what you are saying about a lack of evidence for a global flood. As far as I know all cultures have a record of it, anecdotes of it, from about 5-10000 years back. Some may only describe local features, but they are describing things so large that they could not be merely local.
Would people living in 2000 bce have any conception of the immensity of a global earth?
The 1st 10 mins of Dr. Montgomery's lecture to Harvard will clear this up. He immediately knew that no annual or even 100 year even could explain the size of the lake that burst in India, coupled with all the local legends which the locals were speaking of. That's why he formed his chart seen at the 10th min.
I don't do apologetics. Do you know of any Biblical Scholars that agree with him?
Pellegrini's 1859 study of the plates, which verified Genesis, was buried by the Huxley plan to push gradualism everywhere "and finally get rid of the Old Bugger." Only one small Paris publisher would handle Pellegrini. We have 150 year of worthless science because of the Huxleys and their world-control dreams.
Could it be that the rejecting publishers did not recognize the value in Pellegrini's theories?
The NT is not neo-orthodox, which is what you mean about dumping Genesis historically but retaining the "salvation" parts.
I believe the creation stories were important for the cultures of its time.
Here are titles by Dr. Schaeffer which you should revisit:
THE GOD WHO IS THERE
HE IS THERE AND HE IS NOT SILENT
HOW SHOULD WE THEN LIVE?
NO FINAL CONFLICT
Schaeffer was probably the highest profile writer and evangelist after Lewis died, for the mid-late 20th century. If you read the account of the ministry developing (L'ABRI by his wife), he would almost immediately explain to people in new audiences that the Bible is not 'historically-false, but pastorally-true' nor is there any use to that. It collapses on itself. Mt 24 becomes meaningless because the flood never happened, yet he is warning Jerusalem about being destroyed in 40 years! What sense is that?. 2 Peter 3 becomes meaningless for the same reason and on and on. Neo-orthodoxy was born of late 19th cent. German disbelief (or, very convenient for the world-dominating racism of ORIGINS!--which became the 3rd Reich in all its "glory.").

In Mk 2 and parallels, there is the miracle of the paralytic that is bound to a claim about forgiving sins as the son of Man. They stand together or they fall together, he knew exactly what he was doing there. That's how NT truth is. It is not fractured by being historically false but 'spiritually true'.

To show the awkward sources of neo-orthodoxy even further, Lyell proposed the same thing. He said he did not want London Sunday Schools to stop teaching Genesis on his account (his gradualist theory), because he had seen what happens to kids when the basis of the 10 Commands no longer matters: the 10 Commands no longer matter!

My novel has a 6 page bibliography if you want some extended resources to read. M. Sanford DELUGE OF SUSPICIONS at Amazon. Or I can paste the list here. Yes, it is a crime mystery in the foreground. But the same questions are there. And it may be a more enjoyable read than the usual scientific paper. Even the Genesis Apologetics doc "Noah's Flood and Plate Tectonics" is only 20 minutes but above my technical level! At Youtube.
I think it is best when Christians focus on what they have in common instead of what alienates them. A good book that spans Christian denominations is Church History in Plain Language. It is an informative high-level view of Christian History and each chapter lists lots of books used for reference. You can purchase a uesd copy on Ebay for under $10, including postage
 
The Old Testament was compiled from an oral accounts between 1500 BC and 400 BC.

The question is how much of the Old Testament is historically accurate?

According to Biblical accounts the earth was created on 4004 bce and the flood was 2348 bce. We know today that earth is 4.5 billion years old. begining from the perspetive of a 2000 year old worlds, how can you account for the accuracy of Joseph's timeline?

Would people living in 2000 bce have any conception of the immensity of a global earth?

I don't do apologetics. Do you know of any Biblical Scholars that agree with him?

Could it be that the rejecting publishers did not recognize the value in Pellegrini's theories?

I believe the creation stories were important for the cultures of its time.

I think it is best when Christians focus on what they have in common instead of what alienates them. A good book that spans Christian denominations is Church History in Plain Language. It is an informative high-level view of Christian History and each chapter lists lots of books used for reference. You can purchase a uesd copy on Ebay for under $10, including postage

Yes, Joseph complied the oral accounts which date back all the way back.

Velikovsky showed there is another explanation for longevity and for the dating of the Bible in WORLDS IN COLLISION. He was rejected by most, but he was correct about the radiation levels of Jupiter when Viking went by. He told NASA it would be 'hot' and it was. It should not be, because it should be cold from billions of years. There are flaws like this all through science.

Velikovsky showed that the earth is orbiting slower than it was, that this could happen through the collision at the center of his approach, and that the high tallies of ages found in many ancient documents make sense until the collision and the same counts (human years, years of kings' lives) are now much lower because of the slow orbit of the earth.

A local ancient person cannot tell you what was going on elsewhere in the world except to experience the shock of finding something entirely out of place, like a Mayan calender in slurry under Brisbane Australia. I'm not saying they found one but only because no one excavated. It was found in modern times.

What a local ancient person can accurately report, as Montgomery showed in the lecture, is that nothing current comes anywhere close to the hydrologic lines found in that valley. Or they can try to guess through myth why there are sea shells high in the Rockies or Olympics. If they have not been to the ocean and seen the same, they are at a disadvantage, but natives in the Olympic area had seen both. They are not so stupid as to fail to put the two facts together, as other accounts show.

I take it you have not examined very much OT archeology; you might be surprised then, to find out how few problems there are. Obviously the people finding problems are always graduates of the secular gradualist disbelief programs with very late dates to all documents involved. Thus they have no way to absorb the supernatural element of the text when read in its normal sense.

I have a doctrine which may allow for a longer-aged earth than most, but not for the same reasons as gradualism, and which validates Genesis going forward from ch. 1. One component is that there were other entities in action in the background of 'tohu wa-bohu' (formless and void) in 1:2. This expression means something was destroyed because it was evil. The week of creation was thus a redemptive transformation of the earth. A 2nd component of this is that rebellious angels (demons) are referred to as being imprisoned in blackest darkness (2 Peter 2 and Jude, re: 'tartarus' also mentioned in Greek literature). We may thus note that 1:2 also matches this, and in fact, our local star, the sun, is not created until the 4th day, when vegetation needs it.

So we may have an older earth, and we have a watery darkness, but for reasons completely different from secular gradualism.

I collected a list of indicators of recent creation and cataclysm. It was up to about 40 items at one point. From the S shape of galaxies (which should not exist after Bs of years) to the level of salinity of earth's ocean.

No one wanted to let Pellegrini's findings out because 'the present processes are the key to the past.' This was simply a huge amateur mistake. Anyone working with rate x time on hydrologic questions knows that things 'look' totally different when rate is high, and so the question is not merely mathematic; you have to do some physical forensics, and you are forced to match a lot of physical evidence with the catastrophes that are known to have been only a few thousand years ago. As the back cover of a WA state geology hiking book says: the whole face of the earth was radically changed just a few thousand years ago.

As far as agreement with Schaeffer, I already mentioned the size of my novel's bibliography. The site creationwiki which had to form after so much censure from wikipedia has some 9000 peer articles. Most of them are too technical for me.

The state museum of Alaska has a banner in the natural history section: "Mega-flora was quickly encased under a mile of ice" when describing the state. A little thought about that line goes a long ways: mega-flora; quickly; a mile of ice. What hydrological conditions would get you from before to after in a short time? Yes, the ones in Genesis. Alaska is about as far as you can get from the local ancient near east setting.
 
Frank,
thanks for continuing to chat

Just to be clear about my first line above: Joseph did not concoct myth about what happened before him. He gathered oral recitation and put it in writing.

Velikovsky is not wildly on board with the Genesis flood in spite of his Jewish background, etc. In fact he thinks the collision actually resulted in the Beth-Horon raining sulfur, an event after Moses, because he would correlate accounts from around the world where a collision is referenced. I'm just mentioning him because he beat NASA and because the slow-orbit makes sense.
 
The truly interpretation of the genesis ofcourse doesn't mean that God created everything in 7 solar dates. In order to understand what Genesis say you have to feel like Moses did around 1500 bC when God showed at him the vision of creation. It was impossible for Moses as it is impossible to any human to understand exactly how the Son of God (Jesus Christ) created everything and how Jesus interfered the evolution. It's a mystery and science is beginning to understand only the 1/1000 of that knowledge. The only thing we must really understand is that the 8th day of creation is the 2nd Presence of Christ who He will come to resurrect every human being for eternal damnation or eternal life.
 
The truly interpretation of the genesis ofcourse doesn't mean that God created everything in 7 solar dates. In order to understand what Genesis say you have to feel like Moses did around 1500 bC when God showed at him the vision of creation. It was impossible for Moses as it is impossible to any human to understand exactly how the Son of God (Jesus Christ) created everything and how Jesus interfered the evolution. It's a mystery and science is beginning to understand only the 1/1000 of that knowledge. The only thing we must really understand is that the 8th day of creation is the 2nd Presence of Christ who He will come to resurrect every human being for eternal damnation or eternal life.

ACtually it was oral transmission way before Moses and assembled by Joseph.
 
re age of earth: this just showed up on my browser landing page.

 
Frank,
thanks for continuing to chat

Just to be clear about my first line above: Joseph did not concoct myth about what happened before him. He gathered oral recitation and put it in writing.

Velikovsky is not wildly on board with the Genesis flood in spite of his Jewish background, etc. In fact he thinks the collision actually resulted in the Beth-Horon raining sulfur, an event after Moses, because he would correlate accounts from around the world where a collision is referenced. I'm just mentioning him because he beat NASA and because the slow-orbit makes sense.
I like to chat too, but I think we are at an impasse regarding the OT which we interpret differently. I interpret the OT stories as teaching stories providing moral lessons. You interpret it as actual history. Without independent verification we have no way of knowing if the not the events actually took place or of knowing who the authors were. More importantly I don' believe the way we interpret the OT doesn't matter as it is not a matter of faith or morals.

I look forward to discussing other topics with you.
 
I like to chat too, but I think we are at an impasse regarding the OT which we interpret differently. I interpret the OT stories as teaching stories providing moral lessons. You interpret it as actual history. Without independent verification we have no way of knowing if the not the events actually took place or of knowing who the authors were. More importantly I don' believe the way we interpret the OT doesn't matter as it is not a matter of faith or morals.

I look forward to discussing other topics with you.

I don't find the apostles dealing in fantasy/myth. They were taught directly by Christ for 40 days, so it seems like it would come up. They were taught at least 20 passages as we see from early Acts to ch 15, and I fail to see a new 'mythical' understanding. Daniel's 70 weeks of years are not mythical as they span from a decree to the death of Christ.

A west coast American tribe says a skilled bowman 'wove a barge together in the sky that saved himself and the animals during a cataclysm.' So if that's all it takes to express a myth, why the incessant numerical details in Genesis?

Just to be clear, I think you meant you do believe the way we interp the OT is not matter of faith or morals. (There are two negatives above).

What is the point of an account of evil invading if it never really invaded? Is this not as interlocked as Mk 2's healing of the paralytic where forgiveness and healing are interlocked? And isn't that a small replica of the Gospel itself--that it is an event that is only explained from the truth we have from beyond this world, but which has imprints in this world. "God has left evidence everywhere, but man keeps filling it in with dust, like cracks in floor boards being filled in."--a priest in IMPROMPTU, in a scene where intellectuals from Paris like Sands and Debussy are gathered around a dinner table.

As Dr. Schaeffer explained, if neo-orthodoxy is accepted, then even the Gospel disintegrates like dust and becomes a Dali painting; emotionally real, historically false. https://img0.etsystatic.com/000/0/6751222/il_fullxfull.323852384.jpg
 
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So Frank, tell me if Romans 1's saying that men suppress the truth in unrighteousness is necessary but mythical. Because it is actually historically true. If it is not true, Romans is meaningless, including all statements about Christ. 2 Peter 3 reported gradualism back then from Greek thought, and I'm reporting gradualism took over modern science when the Huxleys pushed Darwin through and buried Pellegrini.

Notice this from Lewis, in "Man or Rabbit?" in GOD IN THE DOCK: "If Christianity is untrue, no honest man will want to believe it, no matter how helpful it may be. If it is true, every honest man will want to believe it, even if it gives him no help at all." The reason for Lewis title here is not directly about evolution. It is about how real men pursue things that are true, not things that 'help.' Rabbits seek things that help; that's all they know.

If you do not believe it to be historically true, you should be done with it. But it remains amazing how many cultures have so many of the elements in their cultural consciousness, almost as if they were once on pangea (they were, acc. to Pellegrini).
That's why there is really no problem "tracing Genesis through other cultures"--disintegration in other cultures is what we would expect.
 
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