Free Choice to Accept or Reject?

[Arial]

John 11:25-26 Jesus said to her,"I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?"

Is it possible to believe something and reject it at the same time?

 

[Arial]

OK. Let's look a bit farther in John 11 and see what it was that Martha believed. These passages of course, are in connection with the death of Martha's brother Lazarus, Jesus had been told that his friend was sick, and Jesus had told them that the illness would not lead to death, and he delayed going to him for two days. He then told his disciples that Lazarus had fallen asleep and he was going to awaken him. They thought he meant taking rest and would therefore recover. So he told them plainly that no, he had died, and he said a curious thing, "Lazarus has died, and for your sake I am glad that I was not there, so that you may believe. But let us go to him."

When he arrived, he found that Lazarus had been in the tomb four days. Martha ran to meet him and said, "Lord, if you had been here, my brother would not have died. But even now I know that whatever you ask from God, God will give you." Jesus replied, "Your brother will rise again," Martha said to him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day."

Those Jews of the day who followed the teachings of the Pharisees did believe in the resurrection of the dead, so this statement of Martha is in agreement with that teaching, not a statement about Jesus. And Jesus promptly identifies something much deeper. "I am the resurrection and life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet he shall live, and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?"

Martha's answer, "Yes, Lord; I believe you are the Christ, the Son of God who is coming into the world." It was as tough a light went on and all the Messianic prophecies that she would have been familiar with, coalesced in the man standing before her. She calls him Lord. She understood. She believed.

So I ask again: Is it possible to believe what Martha believed and simultaneously reject it---not believe it?

 

[prism]

...

 

[Arial]

...

???

 

[makesends]

OK. Let's look a bit farther in John 11 and see what it was that Martha believed. These passages of course, are in connection with the death of Martha's brother Lazarus, Jesus had been told that his friend was sick, and Jesus had told them that the illness would not lead to death, and he delayed going to him for two days. He then told his disciples that Lazarus had fallen asleep and he was going to awaken him. They thought he meant taking rest and would therefore recover. So he told them plainly that no, he had died, and he said a curious thing, "Lazarus has died, and for your sake I am glad that I was not there, so that you may believe. But let us go to him."

When he arrived, he found that Lazarus had been in the tomb four days. Martha ran to meet him and said, "Lord, if you had been here, my brother would not have died. But even now I know that whatever you ask from God, God will give you." Jesus replied, "Your brother will rise again," Martha said to him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day."

Those Jews of the day who followed the teachings of the Pharisees did believe in the resurrection of the dead, so this statement of Martha is in agreement with that teaching, not a statement about Jesus. And Jesus promptly identifies something much deeper. "I am the resurrection and life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet he shall live, and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?"

Martha's answer, "Yes, Lord; I believe you are the Christ, the Son of God who is coming into the world." It was as tough a light went on and all the Messianic prophecies that she would have been familiar with, coalesced in the man standing before her. She calls him Lord. She understood. She believed.

So I ask again: Is it possible to believe what Martha believed and simultaneously reject it---not believe it?

Just some thoughts upon reading your OP:

Matter of definition of believe. We are all familiar with the difference between believing as the demons do, and faith.

Not only that, but, "I am a believer, but every sin says otherwise."

Then we have the difference between what faith we think we have here, and what 'belief' will be like in Heaven.

 

[Arial]

Just some thoughts upon reading your OP:

Matter of definition of believe. We are all familiar with the difference between believing as the demons do, and faith.

Not only that, but, "I am a believer, but every sin says otherwise."

Then we have the difference between what faith we think we have here, and what 'belief' will be like in Heaven.

Let's go with what it is that Martha expressed, and the belief that we know from Scripture joins us to Christ through faith. Is it possible to believe those things (the person and work of Christ as given in Scripture) and also reject it by not believing it?

 

[fastfredy0]

Is it possible to believe something and reject it at the same time?

To the degree that one believes one cannot reject. "A" cannot = not "A" ... but I think it's a spectrum rather than yes/no.

... there are degrees of faith
As a bible verse says:
"I believe, help me in my unbelief".
"I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith."
.... so basically I think one should speak of "faith" as having varying levels of confidence and doubt spread over a spectrum of issues rather than "accept or reject as a whole" or maybe a qualitative statement like: To the degree one believes one obeys.

Gee, I am scared to a degree that when I meet Christ He may say: "Depart, I knew you". Funny, I have little doubt of meeting Him but more doubt as to what He will say.
more fun to quantify.... 98% I will meet Him, 25% He says: "Depart, I knew you" ...

I assume the R.C.s would says 95% He says: "Depart, I knew you". (Heck, what do they know *giggle*)

 

[Josheb]

John 11:25-26 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?"

Is it possible to believe something and reject it at the same time?

I do so wish I had written the source and quote down when I read it (I think it was one of Keller's books), but I read an account of an atheist discussing things with a Christian where the atheist reportedly said he knew the information and accepted it as true, but simply chose not to apply, or have it apply, to his life!

Yes, I believe Jesus was a real historical figure, and yes, I believe what he is reported to have taught is an accurate record, and I understand what he said. I can be raised from the dead when I die. I simply choose not to change or be changed, to believe but not believe.​

I remember thinking, "Yeah, but what if God actually showed up, up close and personal, blindingly light, thunderous James Earl Jones voice, and all?" Apparently, there are those who believe, at least as far as intellectual assent can take a person and not just proverbial acquiescent lip service, and still reject what they claim to know, understand, and believe.


That, however, does not mean they are "free" to believe, or that the belief is cost-free . I expect to see a LOT of folks seeing the video of their life roll by and at the end say, "Ugh! I really was bound by (one idol or prejudice or another)."

 

[prism]

???

...

 

[makesends]

Let's go with what it is that Martha expressed, and the belief that we know from Scripture joins us to Christ through faith. Is it possible to believe those things (the person and work of Christ as given in Scripture) and also reject it by not believing it?

I don't see how you can believe what you don't really know. That is to me part of a good definition of the kind of faith that is produced by the Spirit within us. It is IN CHRIST that we have this faith, and it is by the Spirit in us that knows. I suppose that sounds like a play on words or something, but I don't see how it can be otherwise: We believe because we know. "Faith is...the evidence of what is not seen."

The particulars of what we believe are sometimes not understood by us, and I expect this was the eye-opening you spoke about, that happened to Martha.

This is why I said that to remark on what you are talking about we need to define belief in that context. I think she was a believer before that, but maybe what some people consider 'concrete thinkers', who can't consider and wait for more information before making a final decision. Then all the sudden her 'horizons were expanded.'

 

[Arial]

...

What is this Prism? What are you trying to not say?

 

[prism]

What is this Prism? What are you trying to not say?

I simply retracted (using three dots) what I originally wrote. Hopefully that' is Kosher.

 

[Arial]

I don't see how you can believe what you don't really know. That is to me part of a good definition of the kind of faith that is produced by the Spirit within us. It is IN CHRIST that we have this faith, and it is by the Spirit in us that knows. I suppose that sounds like a play on words or something, but I don't see how it can be otherwise: We believe because we know. "Faith is...the evidence of what is not seen."

Jesus in his comment to Martha asked if she believed he was the resurrection and the life, and that those who believed, even if they died would live. Believed who he is (the resurrection and the life) is all the "criteria" he gave. He did not go into a theological or doctrinal discussion.

Martha responded that yes she believed that he was the Son of God who was coming into the world. A direct reference to Messianic prophecies. We are not told what was in Martha's mind when she said that, but it is safe to presume one thing, I believe, and that is that she placed full and confident faith in Jesus the person. The fact that she, a Jew, called him Lord would also indicate that she recognized the Son of God as being God.

I fully agree with you that no matter how great or small one's faith is in knowledge, no one has it within themselves. It is a direct work of the Spirit and it is the Spirit who bears witness to our spirit within us. No other human can see that. It has been described in Christian circles as ,"I know that I know that I know." Which of course, is a meaningless statement to anyone else. They don't know what we mean unless they too have that internal witness of the Spirit. And even the unregenerate can and often do, make the same statement about whatever it is that they do believe.

So I return to my question. And I put it in the C/A board for a reason, but obviously I have not made myself clear, though a very fruitful and interesting discussion has developed anyway. Maybe even a better one. The question of the OP was dealing with a claim of a particular view of"free will" debate. .

That is, that yes God must provide grace because of our fallen state and of being at enmity with him. This grace gives us understanding, opens our eyes to see it and understand it. At which time we then make a choice whether to believe or reject.

This scenario has one understanding and believing and at the same time capable of not believing what they believe.

This is why I said that to remark on what you are talking about we need to define belief in that context. I think she was a believer before that, but maybe what some people consider 'concrete thinkers', who can't consider and wait for more information before making a final decision. Then all the sudden her 'horizons were expanded.'

Maybe. Maybe she recognized him as a prophet. It seems to be her sister Mary who really understood who he was. The fact that not even the disciples truly understood even as they talked with him after his resurrection, makes me question that she knew him as the resurrection and the life, the Son of God and Lord. The only way she could know that, at that time, (prior to the crucifixion, resurrection and ascension and the coming of the Holy Spirit in Acts) was by the Spirit revealing it----in her heart and mind.

 

[Arial]

I remember thinking, "Yeah, but what if God actually showed up, up close and personal, blindingly light, thunderous James Earl Jones voice, and all?" Apparently, there are those who believe, at least as far as intellectual assent can take a person and not just proverbial acquiescent lip service, and still reject what they claim to know, understand, and believe.

Agree. But that is not the "believe" that Jesus meant.

 

[Arial]

To the degree that one believes one cannot reject. "A" cannot = not "A" ... but I think it's a spectrum rather than yes/no.

We are kind of getting into the territory of "What does this mean to you?" that is rampant in so called Bible Studies. What did Jesus mean in that conversation with Martha?

... there are degrees of faith
As a bible verse says:
"I believe, help me in my unbelief".
"I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith."
.... so basically I think one should speak of "faith" as having varying levels of confidence and doubt spread over a spectrum of issues rather than "accept or reject as a whole" or maybe a qualitative statement like: To the degree one believes one obeys.

I agree. But due to my own lack of clarity, my focus is not on the faith that we are given and that there are areas where it fluctuates. or degrees. But you bring up a good point. Whatever level of faith we have, it is given to us, and it is enough. But we must have some and it must be in the person and work of Jesus. Personally, I don't think that fluctuates. At what ever level God places that in us, it stays steady or grows. But as to that, I can only relate it to my experience as his child. I have doubted many things, have often offered that same prayer, "I believe, help my unbelief." And truly I think that type of doubt is intended and good for us. It make us press in and grow, and learn to trust. What I have never doubted is that Scripture is the word of God therefore ultimate truth, and that Jesus is who the Bible says he is and he did what the Bible says he did.

 

[fastfredy0]

Whatever level of faith we have, it is given to us, and it is enough. But we must have some and it must be in the person and work of Jesus.

Agreed

have often offered that same prayer, "I believe, help my unbelief."

me too

And truly I think that type of doubt is intended and good for us.

Does keep you humble.

What I have never doubted is that Scripture is the word of God therefore ultimate truth, and that Jesus is who the Bible says he is and he did what the Bible says he did.

Yes, Scripture is our foundation. Minor variances in scripture per textual criticism ... I'm on board with that save for my understanding of scripture is less than perfect and I don't know what I don't know.

 

[Josheb]

Agree. But that is not the "believe" that Jesus meant.

Yep.

That's part of the point being made. Free-willers play fast and loose with the word "believe." Doing so, volitionalists assert a fallacy of ambiguity. This is particularly so for the Provisionists, who believe the cognitive/physiological faculties of the sinner's flesh are sufficient, and that is all the divine grace that is needed for anyone to...... believe. There can be, nor will there be, agreement with those who think something sinful can and is used to save from sin, any more than two people using the same term with completely different meaning can agree. There are Christians who actually dispute the premise of faith being a gift from God given to the sinner because the sinner needs that gift.

 

[Arial]

Agreed

me too


Does keep you humble.


Yes, Scripture is our foundation. Minor variances in scripture per textual criticism ... I'm on board with that save for my understanding of scripture is less than perfect and I don't know what I don't know.

Scripture is less than perfect? What do you mean by that?

 

[fastfredy0]

Scripture is less than perfect? What do you mean by that?

It's a technicality. Scripture as originally written is perfect IMO, but we have no originals. As copies were made errors were created. Said errors were minor.

In 2005, Bart D. Ehrman reported estimates from 200,000 to 400,000 New Testament variants based on 5,700 Greek and 10,000 Latin manuscripts, various other ancient translations, and quotations by the Church Fathers.

There are approximately 180,000 words in the New Testament
The vast majority of variants are of no significance i.e. spelling, etc
There are no doctrinal discrepancies

Interesting variants

• Mark 16:9-20 not found in older manuscripts (story of Mary Magdalene)
• John 5:4 only found in KJV, NKJV and NASB
• John 7:53-8:11 Passage omitted in the critical text. See Jesus and the woman taken in adultery
• Matthew 18:11 MT/TR: For the Son of Man has come to save that which was lost. CT: Verse omitted
• Mark 11:26 MT/TR: But if you do not forgive, neither will your Father in heaven forgive your trespasses. CT: Verse omitted (similar verse in Matthew 6:14-15)
• Romans 16:24 MT/TR: The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen. CT: Verse omitted

On YouTube, if you search for "daniel b wallace textual criticism" you can listen to interesting stuff on the subject

 

[Carbon]

John 11:25-26 Jesus said to her,"I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?"

Is it possible to believe something and reject it at the same time?

I believe it is possible. At least temporarily.

Considering the passage you use, since Jesus is the resurrection and the life the rejection could only be temporally.