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Forgiveness

Forgiveness is of limited value of the parties remain estranged. One this side of the grave, reconciliation is not always possible, but it is the goal.
Reconciliation belongs to The Body (not between the "Body" and the "World") ...

[2Co 6:14-18 NKJV]
Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness? And what accord has Christ with Belial? Or what part has a believer with an unbeliever? And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For you are the temple of the living God. As God has said:
"I will dwell in them
And walk among [them].
I will be their God,
And they shall be My people."
Therefore
"Come out from among them
And be separate, says the Lord.
Do not touch what is unclean,
And I will receive you."
"I will be a Father to you,
And you shall be My sons and daughters,
Says the LORD Almighty."
... The "world" needs to be reconciled to Him, not with us.
 
Reconciliation belongs to The Body (not between the "Body" and the "World") ...

[2Co 6:14-18 NKJV]
Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness? And what accord has Christ with Belial? Or what part has a believer with an unbeliever? And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For you are the temple of the living God. As God has said:
"I will dwell in them
And walk among [them].
I will be their God,
And they shall be My people."
Therefore
"Come out from among them
And be separate, says the Lord.
Do not touch what is unclean,
And I will receive you."
"I will be a Father to you,
And you shall be My sons and daughters,
Says the LORD Almighty."
... The "world" needs to be reconciled to Him, not with us.
The ministry of reconciliation is one of reconciling men to God through the gospel, not reconciling people to people.
 
The ministry of reconciliation is one of reconciling men to God through the gospel, not reconciling people to people.
In @Josheb 's quote, he was referring to reconciliation following forgiveness in the context of Christians forgiving other people. So it was reconciliation between two human beings where one had wronged the other and been forgiven.

I posit:
  • we are called to be RECONCILED with our "brothers" (fellow Christians).
  • we are to CALL sinners to reconcile with God.
  • we are called to FORGIVE our attacker, but NOT to be RECONCILED with sinners.
[I do not owe the thief 70 times 7 chances to steal from me each day.]
 
In @Josheb 's quote, he was referring to reconciliation following forgiveness in the context of Christians forgiving other people. So it was reconciliation between two human beings where one had wronged the other and been forgiven.

I posit:
  • we are called to be RECONCILED with our "brothers" (fellow Christians).
  • we are to CALL sinners to reconcile with God.
  • we are called to FORGIVE our attacker, but NOT to be RECONCILED with sinners.
[I do not owe the thief 70 times 7 chances to steal from me each day.]
I disagree.

We are the "light on a hill". We're supposed to set the example in everything we do. One of the reasons Israel was judged as covenant breakers is because they did not set the example, espouse their standards for others, and did not spread those standards around the world. They took directives like Exodus 12:49 as in-house requirements, not something they were to espouse for others.

Exodus 12:49
The same law shall apply to the native as to the stranger who resides among you.

In the beginning, God's people (Adam and Eve) were commanded to be fruitful, multiply, subdue the earth and rule over it. That very same command has been re-iterated throughout the Bible in different wordings, among them the "great commission." There is only one kingdom and that kingdom is God's. There's only one God, one King and there is no place He and His standards do not rule. Where they do not rule bearing fruit there will be eventual condemnation, wrath, and destruction. Make no mistake: God will not be mocked.

Galatians 6:7-8
Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap. For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.


I have been wanting to post something much more informative about the points and inquiries made in this op but I haven't had time. The fact is forgiveness is simply one single milestone in a process that reflects the gospel. The entire process testifies to Christ crucified and resurrected. The "process," however, has been corrupted by culture. For example, it is very common for us to "apologize."

There is no such thing in the New Testament!

The only time you'll find a record of anyone apologizing in the New Testament is when pagans apologize for abusing Christians 😠. An apology is an except cultural or societal practice so we all accept it when we should not do so if the standards are scripture are our goal. The standards of scripture, the process, if you will, is

  • Confession
  • Repentance
  • Restitution
  • Penalty
  • Forgiveness
  • Reconciliation

That is the goal. Every step is something to pursue as a way of life, and a character-changing endeavor, as a model of Christ. Most apologies, even among Christians are the kind that say, "I apologize if you were offended." Screw that! A person either acknowledges their wrongdoing, expresses an intention not to repeat the wrongdoing and to do right, they either make an active attempt to make amends (where it would cause no further harm).... or they do not. No one apologizes for another's emotions. Thet' is another wrongdoing! Whether or not I am offended is irrelevant. If you or I do wrong, then we did wrong - whether anyone was offended by the wrongdoing or not. "I apologize of others were offended or hurt" is a politician's apology, not real repentance. There is no redemptive quality in that apology. It is dross.

I'll post the gospel orientation that informs this op when I have time. For now, here are some passages written by Christians to Christians about Christians..... and how they are to conduct themselves in-house and out-of-house.


Romans 12:9-21 ESV
Let love be genuine. Abhor what is evil; hold fast to what is good. Love one another with brotherly affection. Outdo one another in showing honor. Do not be slothful in zeal, be fervent in spirit, serve the Lord. Rejoice in hope, be patient in tribulation, be constant in prayer. Contribute to the needs of the saints and seek to show hospitality. Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse them. Rejoice with those who rejoice, weep with those who weep. Live in harmony with one another. Do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly. Never be wise in your own sight. Repay no one evil for evil, but give thought to do what is honorable in the sight of all. If possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all. Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.” To the contrary, “if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals on his head.”* Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Feed our enemies.

James 3:9-10
With it we bless our Lord and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in the likeness of God; from the same mouth come both blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not to be this way.

All men have been made in God's image, not Just Christians.

Colossians 4:5-6
Conduct yourselves with wisdom toward outsiders, making the most of the opportunity. Let your speech always be with grace, as though seasoned with salt, so that you will know how you should respond to each person.

Remember: it was while we were still sinners that Christ forgave us. Many he forgave did not convert to Christ. Most, in fact. They remained outsiders.
I do not owe the thief 70 times 7 chances to steal from me each day.
Hmmm...

Aside from the fact that is a gross movement of the goal posts, forgiveness is not about you. It's not about whether or not the person will do wrong again, either. God has forgiven you and me and we still do wrong 🤨. Forgiving a person does not give them a "chance." I'd ask where that notion originated but not sure I care to know.












* The phrase, "...for by doing so you will heap burning coals on his head" is a reference to a cultural idiom designating care and nurturance, not shame. I have study Bibles that have this incorrect. What did you do in ancient times if your fire went out? You could not cook and you could not keep your house warm without a fire. They did not have ovens and microwaves. They did not have matches, either. If your fire went out there were only three options: rub two sticks together, go ask a neighbor for some coals from their fire, or take some coals from the municipal fire towns kept burning 24/7. In what would you carry those coals? Can't carry them in a bare hand, lest your hands get burned. So, you carried them in clay pots, which were heavy. You've all seen the National Geographic photos of primitive people carrying pots on their heads or shoulders. That is the idiom's reference. Heaping burning coals on their head meant rekindle their warmth and sustenance. In this way you feed them and keep them warm. Look it up. Otherwise, the text has Jesus and Paul telling everyone to be kind and then abruptly implies we shame those to whom we've just been kind. That is pathological, not Godly.
.
 
I disagree.

We are the "light on a hill". We're supposed to set the example in everything we do. One of the reasons Israel was judged as covenant breakers is because they did not set the example, espouse their standards for others, and did not spread those standards around the world. They took directives like Exodus 12:49 as in-house requirements, not something they were to espouse for others.

Exodus 12:49
The same law shall apply to the native as to the stranger who resides among you.

In the beginning, God's people (Adam and Eve) were commanded to be fruitful, multiply, subdue the earth and rule over it. That very same command has been re-iterated throughout the Bible in different wordings, among them the "great commission." There is only one kingdom and that kingdom is God's. There's only one God, one King and there is no place He and His standards do not rule. Where they do not rule bearing fruit there will be eventual condemnation, wrath, and destruction. Make no mistake: God will not be mocked.

Galatians 6:7-8
Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap. For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.


I have been wanting to post something much more informative about the points and inquiries made in this op but I haven't had time. The fact is forgiveness is simply one single milestone in a process that reflects the gospel. The entire process testifies to Christ crucified and resurrected. The "process," however, has been corrupted by culture. For example, it is very common for us to "apologize."

There is no such thing in the New Testament!

The only time you'll find a record of anyone apologizing in the New Testament is when pagans apologize for abusing Christians 😠. An apology is an except cultural or societal practice so we all accept it when we should not do so if the standards are scripture are our goal. The standards of scripture, the process, if you will, is

  • Confession
  • Repentance
  • Restitution
  • Penalty
  • Forgiveness
  • Reconciliation

That is the goal. Every step is something to pursue as a way of life, and a character-changing endeavor, as a model of Christ. Most apologies, even among Christians are the kind that say, "I apologize if you were offended." Screw that! A person either acknowledges their wrongdoing, expresses an intention not to repeat the wrongdoing and to do right, they either make an active attempt to make amends (where it would cause no further harm).... or they do not. No one apologizes for another's emotions. Thet' is another wrongdoing! Whether or not I am offended is irrelevant. If you or I do wrong, then we did wrong - whether anyone was offended by the wrongdoing or not. "I apologize of others were offended or hurt" is a politician's apology, not real repentance. There is no redemptive quality in that apology. It is dross.

I'll post the gospel orientation that informs this op when I have time. For now, here are some passages written by Christians to Christians about Christians..... and how they are to conduct themselves in-house and out-of-house.


Romans 12:9-21 ESV
Let love be genuine. Abhor what is evil; hold fast to what is good. Love one another with brotherly affection. Outdo one another in showing honor. Do not be slothful in zeal, be fervent in spirit, serve the Lord. Rejoice in hope, be patient in tribulation, be constant in prayer. Contribute to the needs of the saints and seek to show hospitality. Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse them. Rejoice with those who rejoice, weep with those who weep. Live in harmony with one another. Do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly. Never be wise in your own sight. Repay no one evil for evil, but give thought to do what is honorable in the sight of all. If possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all. Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.” To the contrary, “if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals on his head.”* Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Feed our enemies.

James 3:9-10
With it we bless our Lord and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in the likeness of God; from the same mouth come both blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not to be this way.

All men have been made in God's image, not Just Christians.

Colossians 4:5-6
Conduct yourselves with wisdom toward outsiders, making the most of the opportunity. Let your speech always be with grace, as though seasoned with salt, so that you will know how you should respond to each person.

Remember: it was while we were still sinners that Christ forgave us. Many he forgave did not convert to Christ. Most, in fact. They remained outsiders.

Hmmm...

Aside from the fact that is a gross movement of the goal posts, forgiveness is not about you. It's not about whether or not the person will do wrong again, either. God has forgiven you and me and we still do wrong 🤨. Forgiving a person does not give them a "chance." I'd ask where that notion originated but not sure I care to know.
You keep shifting from FORGIVENESS to RECONCILED as if the terms were identical, in spite of the efforts I have repeatedly made to illustrate a distinction (and affirm forgiveness). So I give up. We are just talking past one another and THAT is profitable for neither of us.

I yield the topic to you.
 
You keep shifting from FORGIVENESS to RECONCILED as if the terms were identical,
Alas, the posts should have been kept about the posts and not the posters.
You keep shifting from FORGIVENESS to RECONCILED as if the terms were identical...
No, I do not.

Never happened. Go back and re-read the posts and re-read them as many times as it takes to understand them correctly. The point being made is simple and singular: forgiveness is simply one step in a much larger process. Period.

Therefore, any discussion on forgiveness always occurs in that context. Discussing forgiveness absent that context is like discussing confession, absent that context, or repentance absent that context. What good is confession absent repentance? What good is confession absent amends of reconciliation (or forgiveness). There are millions of felons sitting in penitentiaries around the world who wish they'd be forgiven and most of them know little of all that is entailed in that wish. If forgiven, most of them will live life forgiven but unreconciled.

Forgiven

NOT reconciled.


Being forgiven (and forgiving) is great. It is not, however, is being forgiven and reconciled. So, no, I have not once treated the two words as if they were identical. Go back and re-read the posts. I forgive the accusation. Now go...

...make amends

...and be reconciled.

Because the three are not identical and the accusation just turned this thread into an object lesson 😯. I cannot wait to see what was posted being practiced ;).
...in spite of the efforts I have repeatedly made to illustrate a distinction (and affirm forgiveness).
I fully understood that. Have no clue how it was imagined otherwise, but I will say it is usually better to trust the posters and assume their faculties work sufficiently to either understand or ask for clarification when needed. In point of fact, I wasn't the first poster to broach that matter of forgiveness and reconciliation working together, and at least two other posters wholly agree with
So I give up. We are just talking past one another and THAT is profitable for neither of us.
No, one of us understood the discussion just fine. The other, apparently, did not, and made assumptions and then posted them with accusation when there were much more functional alternatives.
I yield the topic to you.
Might want to check with Arial about that. It's her op. Yielding will not solve the problem of failing to correctly understand, nor the problem of accusing another of things that never happened. It's so very ironic because I just got done talking about those who apologize for others' feelings and here, I am being accused of conflating forgiveness and reconciliation when no such thing happened and the failure to understand is not mine.


Count the number of times I used the word, "you" in this post.
You keep....
Prove it.
You keep....
Want to stick with that? Or maybe try it again with something less accusatory and factually correct? Something more reconciling? ;)
 
Forgiveness is one of the hardest things for a Christian to do and also one of the hardest things to understand as to what forgiveness is---what it looks like in our thoughts as well as our actions.
I think that might be true of new Christians or those less experienced. Practice improve performance. the irony of that statement is that in order to get practice one must be wronged many time and wrong others many times if any practice is to be had 🤕. It can be quite inconvenientwhen Whose we are is forgotten.
 
Forgiveness is one of the hardest things for a Christian to do and also one of the hardest things to understand as to what forgiveness is---what it looks like in our thoughts as well as our actions........................ And above all, remember the magnitude of the debt we owe God, and Jesus who came and paid that debt for us, that He might bestow grace and mercy, forgiveness, upon us. We are to show mercy because we have been shown such unimaginable mercy. We are to forgive our debtors even as He has forgiven our debt.
Who wants to remember the magnitude of debt?

Try remembering the magnitude forgiven and what happened afterwards 😎.

Earlier I asserted the premise forgiveness was simply one part in a much larger process and we run the risk of erring or falling short in the process if we stop at forgiveness. That "process" entails several "steps," which are as follows:

  • Confession (or acknowledging one's own wrongdoing).
  • Repentance (or purposing to change both the thinking that prompted the action, and the wrongdoing itself).
  • Restitution (or making an effort to make amends where possible and where no further harm is caused).
  • Penalty (this does not always occur but whenever a relationship is damaged that's a penalty suffered. It must be paid).
  • Forgiveness (seeking the cancellation of any debt, or not holding the debt against another when wronged. And this usually entails God, self, and another(s).
  • Reconciliation (or repairing the relationship so that is either restored or improved).

In the Old Testament this was codified in many ways but one of the most visible is in the process of bond-service. Israel did not have penitentiaries. Under the Law of Moses, a criminal was either killed or made to work of the debt. There was no warehousing of criminals.

Take, for example, the premise of my borrowing your donkey to plow my field. If I borrowed the donkey and it broke its leg due to my abuse or neglect then I owed you a donkey. A donkey for a donkey. I also owed you five shekels for the loss. If, alternatively, I borrowed your ox and broke your ox, then I owed you an ox plus forty shekels. A donkey for a donkey, an ox for an ox. Restitution. But why must I pay forty shekels in additional penalty for the ox than the five shekels paid for the donkey. The loss is greater, so too is the penalty. An ox can plow much more acreage in a day than a donkey. The ox hide is bigger and more diversely used. The ox can be eaten and feeds more, whereas the donkey was unclean and not good for food.

What happens if I cannot pay you, Arial, for the damage? In ancient times you would take me to the priests and have the loss recorded and I would be either be jailed overnight or taken to the market then (or the next day) where my debt to you would be purchased. Perhaps some wealthy person needed a ditch dug, or bricks laid, or a house served, in which case my debt would be purchased, and you would be paid (the priests, the judges, did not get a share). My debt to you was now transferred to the one who had bought my debt and I was now obligated to work off that debt. The one buying my debt was also obligated to feed me and equip me for whatever work I was assigned. So purchasing another's debt for bond service always entailed additional expense. Whether it took a week, a month, a year or more, once my debt was worked off the person who'd bought my debt would take me back to the priests and announce to them that I had worked off my debt and was now free of the debt. My debt was canceled. My debt was forgiven. Now, not only was my debt canceled but I have learned a new skill a new trade with which I can again become a productive member of society. I've been rehabilitated and restored better than before. This last part would be important for certain crimes like theft. The Jews did not cut off hands for theft or scar faces for adultery or other crimes.* At this point my debt to you has been paid, my bond service to the debt-purchaser is fulfilled, and I am reconciled to myself, the ones wronged, and the community in which I live. They are to treat me accordingly.

What happens if I liked working for my bond-master? There was a ritual whereby I could voluntarily pledge my life to serve the one who'd paid my debt. I would be taken to the doorway of his house, have my ear pierced, and in it a ring inserted. That was the sign of the servant class. When you went to the market and observed the men with rings in their ear you knew these were men who'd once suffered debt and now pledged their lives in service to another.

There's much more entailed in this summary but I will close with one last important aspect. Earlier I mentioned the priests/judges got no share of the payments. Neither did they have any say in sentencing. The Law stipulated the consequences, and the judge had no authority or power to lessen or increase them. They were not allowed to be lenient or more severe, to show pity or mercy, or in any way lessen the consequences. Only one person was allowed to do that.

The person wronged.

At any time prior to my bond being purchased you, Arial, could grant me mercy and forgive me, cancel the debt. You alone had that authority.




With whom, then, do we have a voluntary love relationship of service committed to the one who has purchased our debt?


And, of course, those who know the richness of the bond-service find it much easier to forgive than those who do not, but once learned the knowledge empowers the power...... because forgiveness is power. Paul understood this. He called himself a bondservant when opening his epistles. When he didn't, he called himself a prisoner. James also called himself a bondservant.

Matthew 20:1-16
For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire laborers for his vineyard. When he had agreed with the laborers for a denarius for the day, he sent them into his vineyard. And he went out about the third hour and saw others standing idle in the marketplace; and to those he said, 'You also go into the vineyard, and whatever is right I will give you.' And so they went. Again, he went out about the sixth and the ninth hour and did the same thing. And about the eleventh hour he went out and found others standing around; and he said to them, 'Why have you been standing here idle all day long?' They said to him, 'Because no one hired us.' He said to them, 'You go into the vineyard too.' When evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, 'Call the laborers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last group to the first.' When those hired about the eleventh hour came, each one received a denarius. "When those hired first came, they thought that they would receive more; but each of them also received a denarius. When they received it, they grumbled at the landowner, saying, 'These last men have worked only one hour, and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden and the scorching heat of the day.' But he answered and said to one of them, 'Friend, I am doing you no wrong; did you not agree with me for a denarius? Take what is yours and go, but I wish to give to this last man the same as to you. Is it not lawful for me to do what I wish with what is my own? Or is your eye envious because I am generous?' So the last shall be first, and the first last.

(my regret for the length)










*There is only one maiming law in the entire Mosaic code as far as I know.
.
 
Who wants to remember the magnitude of debt?

Try remembering the magnitude forgiven and what happened afterwards 😎.

Earlier I asserted the premise forgiveness was simply one part in a much larger process and we run the risk of erring or falling short in the process if we stop at forgiveness. That "process" entails several "steps," which are as follows:

  • Confession (or acknowledging one's own wrongdoing).
  • Repentance (or purposing to change both the thinking that prompted the action, and the wrongdoing itself).
  • Restitution (or making an effort to make amends where possible and where no further harm is caused).
  • Penalty (this does not always occur but whenever a relationship is damaged that's a penalty suffered. It must be paid).
  • Forgiveness (seeking the cancellation of any debt, or not holding the debt against another when wronged. And this usually entails God, self, and another(s).
  • Reconciliation (or repairing the relationship so that is either restored or improved).

In the Old Testament this was codified in many ways but one of the most visible is in the process of bond-service. Israel did not have penitentiaries. Under the Law of Moses, a criminal was either killed or made to work of the debt. There was no warehousing of criminals.

Take, for example, the premise of my borrowing your donkey to plow my field. If I borrowed the donkey and it broke its leg due to my abuse or neglect then I owed you a donkey. A donkey for a donkey. I also owed you five shekels for the loss. If, alternatively, I borrowed your ox and broke your ox, then I owed you an ox plus forty shekels. A donkey for a donkey, an ox for an ox. Restitution. But why must I pay forty shekels in additional penalty for the ox than the five shekels paid for the donkey. The loss is greater, so too is the penalty. An ox can plow much more acreage in a day than a donkey. The ox hide is bigger and more diversely used. The ox can be eaten and feeds more, whereas the donkey was unclean and not good for food.

What happens if I cannot pay you, Arial, for the damage? In ancient times you would take me to the priests and have the loss recorded and I would be either be jailed overnight or taken to the market then (or the next day) where my debt to you would be purchased. Perhaps some wealthy person needed a ditch dug, or bricks laid, or a house served, in which case my debt would be purchased, and you would be paid (the priests, the judges, did not get a share). My debt to you was now transferred to the one who had bought my debt and I was now obligated to work off that debt. The one buying my debt was also obligated to feed me and equip me for whatever work I was assigned. So purchasing another's debt for bond service always entailed additional expense. Whether it took a week, a month, a year or more, once my debt was worked off the person who'd bought my debt would take me back to the priests and announce to them that I had worked off my debt and was now free of the debt. My debt was canceled. My debt was forgiven. Now, not only was my debt canceled but I have learned a new skill a new trade with which I can again become a productive member of society. I've been rehabilitated and restored better than before. This last part would be important for certain crimes like theft. The Jews did not cut off hands for theft or scar faces for adultery or other crimes.* At this point my debt to you has been paid, my bond service to the debt-purchaser is fulfilled, and I am reconciled to myself, the ones wronged, and the community in which I live. They are to treat me accordingly.

What happens if I liked working for my bond-master? There was a ritual whereby I could voluntarily pledge my life to serve the one who'd paid my debt. I would be taken to the doorway of his house, have my ear pierced, and in it a ring inserted. That was the sign of the servant class. When you went to the market and observed the men with rings in their ear you knew these were men who'd once suffered debt and now pledged their lives in service to another.

There's much more entailed in this summary but I will close with one last important aspect. Earlier I mentioned the priests/judges got no share of the payments. Neither did they have any say in sentencing. The Law stipulated the consequences, and the judge had no authority or power to lessen or increase them. They were not allowed to be lenient or more severe, to show pity or mercy, or in any way lessen the consequences. Only one person was allowed to do that.

The person wronged.

At any time prior to my bond being purchased you, Arial, could grant me mercy and forgive me, cancel the debt. You alone had that authority.




With whom, then, do we have a voluntary love relationship of service committed to the one who has purchased our debt?


And, of course, those who know the richness of the bond-service find it much easier to forgive than those who do not, but once learned the knowledge empowers the power...... because forgiveness is power. Paul understood this. He called himself a bondservant when opening his epistles. When he didn't, he called himself a prisoner. James also called himself a bondservant.

Matthew 20:1-16
For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire laborers for his vineyard. When he had agreed with the laborers for a denarius for the day, he sent them into his vineyard. And he went out about the third hour and saw others standing idle in the marketplace; and to those he said, 'You also go into the vineyard, and whatever is right I will give you.' And so they went. Again, he went out about the sixth and the ninth hour and did the same thing. And about the eleventh hour he went out and found others standing around; and he said to them, 'Why have you been standing here idle all day long?' They said to him, 'Because no one hired us.' He said to them, 'You go into the vineyard too.' When evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, 'Call the laborers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last group to the first.' When those hired about the eleventh hour came, each one received a denarius. "When those hired first came, they thought that they would receive more; but each of them also received a denarius. When they received it, they grumbled at the landowner, saying, 'These last men have worked only one hour, and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden and the scorching heat of the day.' But he answered and said to one of them, 'Friend, I am doing you no wrong; did you not agree with me for a denarius? Take what is yours and go, but I wish to give to this last man the same as to you. Is it not lawful for me to do what I wish with what is my own? Or is your eye envious because I am generous?' So the last shall be first, and the first last.

(my regret for the length)










*There is only one maiming law in the entire Mosaic code as far as I know.
.
This is an important aspect of forgiveness and reconciliation. My focus in the OP was somewhat narrower in it was meant to help the Christian, no matter what level of maturity, have a better understanding of what it means for us to forgive those who have wronged us, and hopefully how to do that. And also when we think we have forgiven to recognize when we need to revisit the issue. That extracting ongoing tiny payments from them in our actions or thoughts. They aren't payments of course but it in some way satisfies that need in us. And it keeps the resentment alive in us.

As to the big things that marked us in ways that never go away, even if we move on from them, they still affect the way we look at ourselves and those around us, and the things we choose to do and not do, there are people we should never reconcile with, and God Himself would not want us to. In those cases it would be helpful to learn that God sees, He hears, He knows, and leave the judgment and its consequences to God. Ultimately it is God the person has sinned against, and He gets justice for His children. IOW they don't owe you, they owe God in that He will mete out the justice for you if it comes to that. In the meantime, the covenant child dwells beneath the shadow of His wings.

He might even choose to save the one who has so violated us, and when we get to the place where accept that without our every aspect viewing that as an injustice and a horrible thought, then we have gotten somewhere. ;) I speak from experience.
 
This is an important aspect of forgiveness and reconciliation. My focus in the OP was somewhat narrower in it was meant to help the Christian...
And it was done well. I just wanted to add to what you posted well.
As to the big things that marked us in ways that never go away, even if we move on from them, they still affect the way we look at ourselves and those around us, and the things we choose to do and not do...
Yep. As a retired therapist I know. Sadly, those in the helping professions and those helped know things no one should know :(. Forgiveness (and reconciliation where possible) is an enormously powerful and redemptive aspect of creation that should be embraced.
He might even choose to save the one who has so violated us, and when we get to the place where accept that without our every aspect viewing that as an injustice and a horrible thought, then we have gotten somewhere. ;) I speak from experience.
Yep.

Despite the limits of anecdotal personal experience, I will testify to having witnessed the reconciliation of the person raped and the person who raped, and the family survivors reconciling with a murder on a few rare occasions. It is very rare. It is not something normally asked of anyone because of the confrontational nature of the interaction and the risk of adding to the already-existing injury. It is possible under certain conditions but even when conditions are ideal it is difficult.

Human difficulty is, blessedly, God's specialty.
 
And it was done well. I just wanted to add to what you posted well.

Yep. As a retired therapist I know. Sadly, those in the helping professions and those helped know things no one should know :(. Forgiveness (and reconciliation where possible) is an enormously powerful and redemptive aspect of creation that should be embraced.

Yep.

Despite the limits of anecdotal personal experience, I will testify to having witnessed the reconciliation of the person raped and the person who raped, and the family survivors reconciling with a murder on a few rare occasions. It is very rare. It is not something normally asked of anyone because of the confrontational nature of the interaction and the risk of adding to the already-existing injury. It is possible under certain conditions but even when conditions are ideal it is difficult.

Human difficulty is, blessedly, God's specialty.
Probably the hardest and longest lasting and permanent effects was with my ex whom I left 25 year ago. No need to go into the details but it was damaging beyond what the human mind can imagine one person would inflict on someone they claimed to love. And truly God brought me out of that by putting one foot in front of the other for me, every painful, devastating step, he was my strength for I had none. And me a fighter! He claimed to be a Christian but obviously was not one.

One night even when I was six hours away from him he called and brought me right back to ground zero in my rising from the ashes. I was praying afterwards but was so full of hate I'm surprised I didn't set the house on fire with the heat of my fury. (This type of thing went on for years.) But that night I said to God, "I know I have to forgive him, but I don't want to. But I want to want to" And such a peace washed over me and I forgave him, at least in the sense that my anger left and was no longer a part of me. Of course this had to be revisited from time to time as more damage was done.

Over the next years up until several months ago he would periodically make contact. We had a peace between us but only because I held my tongue. And when he finally revealed himself to be exactly the same person with no character, still inserting himself into my life, which is blessed and free, and stirring up all those old angers and hurts. I put up with it for awhile but finally it was enough. He had no right to still be infringing his drama and narcissism into my peace. So I didn't hold my tongue, disabused him of his whole purpose in contacting me, to present himself as a good guy and make sure I saw him the same way. And cut all possibility of anymore contact. Sometimes that is what we have to do. Last page and close the book.
 
But that night I said to God, "I know I have to forgive him, but I don't want to. But I want to want to" And such a peace washed over me...
While I hope that the matter is finished it probably isn't, and the experience should be embraced as often as it takes to resolve the matter first between you and God, then within yourself, and perhaps afterwards with your ex. I have gotten into the practice of forgiving as immediately as I can and as substantively as I can but have often found a thought, a similar event, or the return of the person will broach new areas where forgiveness was incomplete. I used to counsel those who find themselves in returning circumstances to lean into it. John 3:19-21. Practice increases prowess.

What would it be like to live life never offended? That sounds like a dumb question to some because the question is interpreted to mean we'd have to cut off from ourselves or become so desensitized we're hardened. Who here thinks Jesus was offended by the constant assaults he endured? Who thinks he never found respite from offense (he did walk as a sinless man among wretchedly sinful people who poured their sin on him long before his Father did so).
 
While I hope that the matter is finished it probably isn't, and the experience should be embraced as often as it takes to resolve the matter first between you and God, then within yourself, and perhaps afterwards with your ex. I have gotten into the practice of forgiving as immediately as I can and as substantively as I can but have often found a thought, a similar event, or the return of the person will broach new areas where forgiveness was incomplete. I used to counsel those who find themselves in returning circumstances to lean into it. John 3:19-21. Practice increases prowess.

What would it be like to live life never offended? That sounds like a dumb question to some because the question is interpreted to mean we'd have to cut off from ourselves or become so desensitized we're hardened. Who here thinks Jesus was offended by the constant assaults he endured? Who thinks he never found respite from offense (he did walk as a sinless man among wretchedly sinful people who poured their sin on him long before his Father did so).
Yes, but there is being offended and then there are those who inflict gaping wounds and just because they are who they are will only ever inflict new wounds or simply tear open the ones that have scarred over. I have no hostility towards the man. If he continued in my life in any way, well I would always have hostility towards him. I would never again let anyone of his caliber into my life, and certainly not him, and I would be a fool to do so. I was very young when that all began. I no longer am.

All that to say. Not all things are always the same. Some reconciliations are good and some are foolish and entirely unnecessary. And it matters whether or not there is true repentance on the part of the offender. That is my take on it anyway.
 
All that to say. Not all things are always the same. Some reconciliations are good and some are foolish and entirely unnecessary. And it matters whether or not there is true repentance on the part of the offender. That is my take on it anyway.
Yep.

I simply wanted to expand on the op for those so interested. It's a good op.


For anyone with an interest (I might have posted this earlier), two of the best books I have ever read on the topic are June Hunt's little study and Miroslav Volf's more theological work "Free of Charge." They'll both work very well with this op. I also recommend staying far away from Lewis Smedes' works and those of Chris(?) Braun. Both are quite dreadful and in places wholly unscriptural (Smedes suggests we forgive God!). And for those interested in conflict resolution, "The Peace Maker" by Ken Sande is very good.
 
Yep.

I simply wanted to expand on the op for those so interested. It's a good op.


For anyone with an interest (I might have posted this earlier), two of the best books I have ever read on the topic are June Hunt's little study and Miroslav Volf's more theological work "Free of Charge." They'll both work very well with this op. I also recommend staying far away from Lewis Smedes' works and those of Chris(?) Braun. Both are quite dreadful and in places wholly unscriptural (Smedes suggests we forgive God!). And for those interested in conflict resolution, "The Peace Maker" by Ken Sande is very good.
I will check them out when I get a chance. I enjoyed what you brought out in your expansion of the OP. It would make a profitable OP in its own right and something the community could benefit from. We can dig into it.

Behold, replied and said to forgive God. If that doesn't show a complete lack of the knowledge of who God is---Creator and what that means---and a failure to recognize who we are in relation to Him---creatures. No recognition of the holiness and self existence and otherness of God. No recognition of the sinfulness of sin. No fear of God, in either sense of the word.
 
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