Faith comes by hearing.

[JIM]

Why you asked? Jim, God has given us his word as a source of information, supported by many infallible proof per Acts 1:3. He also has given to us his own testimony concerning some things which you here mentioned.

Acts 1:3 is only a statement by Luke that Jesus had been seen by the apostles after He had died on the cross. Why would you believe anything that guy Luke said? That is not proof of anything.

Isaiah 44:8; etc.

Again, who is that ancient fellow called Isaiah? Nothing in Isaiah has said there is anything beyond the Milky Way.

Colossians 1:16​

“For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:”

You are giving me stuff written by some guy called Paul written over 2000 years ago. What is the proof that anything he wrote is worth anything?

Believing in God is a spiritual act, not a natural act for sinful man,

A spiritual act?? Seriously? And just where did you get that silly notion?

as a matter of fact, sinful, blinded man looks for ways not to believe in the God who created all things. It is the enmity man (Adam) has within him as the results of disobeying God, that makes it impossible for sinful man to even do that which is pleasing to God, such as seeking, believing in Him.

What has that got to do with believing in God? Are you seriously trying to tell me that I can't believe in God because some man who supposedly lived 6000 years ago did something wrong? What a crazy idea that is.

Jim you have convinced yourself that believing in God is as simple as brushing your teeth.

I have never said anything like that at all. In fact I have stated many times that for me, being raised in a good Christian family, it was quite natural for me to believe, but for others not so fortunate, it can be very difficult and take years of study and contemplation to come to that point. I know people for whom that was the case.

It is much more than that, one must believe that there is a God with infinite power, and wisdom who wonderfully created our bodies so perfectly as to place every member in its proper place to function the best for us a his creatures~and then praise Him for doing so...then praise him for giving us the faith to believe him.

What evidence do you have that there is a God with infinite power and wisdom? I had open heart surgery about a year ago; I have other infirmities that I won't bother to go into and you are telling me how wonderfully God made my body? Get real.

1st Corinthians 4:7​

“For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?”

Jim, do you believe, then that faith was given to you to believe, or else you would have never believe.

No, I absolutely do not think that faith was given to me. That very sentence is a bit strange. The definition of faith in God is believing in God.

Pure foolishness?

Pure foolishness of the assumption of the need for some mystical experience to believe in God? Yes! Definitely. As Old Ebenezer Scrouge in Dicken's The Christmas Carol declared, it is more likely that such a mystical experience is the result of some moldy cheese eaten before bed time.

Jim, is it given to Christians to suffer for Christ, it is our lot while living in the flesh apart from Christ?

Who says?

Also, it is given to us on Jesus' behalf to believe in God, this gift Christ secured for us.

What does that even mean. You are giving me a bunch of platitudes. Why should I pay any attention to any of it?

I tis not as easy as you think, if so, the wise of this world would have figure this out long ago, and we would have been left out. 1st Corinthians 1:26-31, tells us why some believe and some do not.

That passage does not really tell us why some believe and some do not. To think that it does, you must first believe there is any truth to those six verses to begin with. That is you are telling I must believe those verses are true in order to believe that they are true. If that is not a circular argument, I don't know what is.

Seriously, Red, you really have not given me any reason to believe any of it. I could just as well believe the truth is in the teachings of Buddha. And please don't tell me I must first be "zapped" by something you call regeneration in order to believe in God. Why would I believe that if I don't even believe in God.

Now I know that some of my response here has been a bit tongue-in-cheek, but in all honesty, you have not told me why coming to believe in God is any different than coming to believe in any other personally non-provable thing.

 

[Mr GLee]

I would offer. .Faith the 'Let there be. The power of God is a work that He works in those yoked with his labor of love . .to both hear his will and empower mankind to do it accredited to his good pleasure (Philippians 2)

believer do not work for what they have already been given feely with no cost on thier own behalf (salvation)

I think Satin would have mankind believe eternal God has no faith as power or would he need faith. Faith. power . . . . the unseen eternal things of Christ the husband .

Faith as a labor of love is a two fold work of Christ. Two is the one witness throughout the bible that represents Christ not seen has spoken.
It is all togethter one thing ."Let there be" and its testimony hoped for by Christ it was our faithful Creator "alone good".

Faith as a labor of Christ's love .

Satan's goal divide what Christ calls one. They cannot be separate any more than fire from fireworks .No fire no works. . display

(dead faith) "Let there be" and there was no evidence as a testimony .. Spoken on in Hebrews 6;1 dead again no evidence that God spoke

Many error with Ephesians 2 as well as James 2. . Not of works is in respect to our own dead faith our belief offer towards his . . . Earthly inspired (devil)

Note . . .(PURPLE) my offering as a opinion.

Ephesian 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith;("Let there be") and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: (we are his design not our own design) Not of works,(we can do) lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created (let there be) in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. (His good works)

It can be witnessed .Dead powerless faith. . earthly inspired communing with dead relatives, familiar spirits (patron saints) 3,500 and rising

His and hers gods in the likeness of dying mankind

Isiah 8:19 And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?

Isiah 8: 20 To the law and (with )to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.( dead faith)

To the law . "Let there be" and the testimony the prophets it was God good .

According to the this word .(let there be) Not words. plural .

Numbers 11:29 And Moses said unto him, Enviest thou for my sake? would God that all the Lord's people were prophets, and that the Lord would put his spirit upon them!

Luke 16:29 (law "Moses" and prophets the "testimony" )
Luke 16:31 (law "Moses" and prophets the "testimony" )
Luke 24:44 (law "Moses" and prophets the "testimony" )
John 1:45 (law "Moses" and prophets the "testimony" )
Acts 26:22 (law "Moses" and prophets the "testimony" )

Luke 16:16 The law (let there be) and the prophets (testimony) were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

Moses the law giver "let there be" and the testimony "Elias the prophet" (sola scriptura) Passed down to John the Baptist and to us today

Preach the gospel the law and the prophets (sola scriptura)

Matthew 11:13-15King James Version13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come. He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Faith is a work of Christ's labor of "let there be". . eternal .Love. . . God is Love

Luke 1:17 And he shall go before him in the spirit and power (as it is written the testimony of the law not seen) of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.

 

[Red Baker]

Mr. Glee~I truly cannot make heads or tail out of this post (#22) of your. No pun intended, I have read many of your post, and left wondering exactly what you were desiring to say, maybe something very good that needed to be said, but I must admit I'm at lost as to where you are going most of the time. Is English your first language?

 

[Red Baker]

Acts 1:3 is only a statement by Luke that Jesus had been seen by the apostles after He had died on the cross. Why would you believe anything that guy Luke said? That is not proof of anything.

Again, who is that ancient fellow called Isaiah? Nothing in Isaiah has said there is anything beyond the Milky Way.

You are giving me stuff written by some guy called Paul written over 2000 years ago. What is the proof that anything he wrote is worth anything?

A spiritual act?? Seriously? And just where did you get that silly notion?

What has that got to do with believing in God? Are you seriously trying to tell me that I can't believe in God because some man who supposedly lived 6000 years ago did something wrong? What a crazy idea that is.

I have never said anything like that at all. In fact I have stated many times that for me, being raised in a good Christian family, it was quite natural for me to believe, but for others not so fortunate, it can be very difficult and take years of study and contemplation to come to that point. I know people for whom that was the case.

What evidence do you have that there is a God with infinite power and wisdom? I had open heart surgery about a year ago; I have other infirmities that I won't bother to go into and you are telling me how wonderfully God made my body? Get real.

No, I absolutely do not think that faith was given to me. That very sentence is a bit strange. The definition of faith in God is believing in God.

Pure foolishness of the assumption of the need for some mystical experience to believe in God? Yes! Definitely. As Old Ebenezer Scrouge in Dicken's The Christmas Carol declared, it is more likely that such a mystical experience is the result of some moldy cheese eaten before bed time.

Who says?

What does that even mean. You are giving me a bunch of platitudes. Why should I pay any attention to any of it?

That passage does not really tell us why some believe and some do not. To think that it does, you must first believe there is any truth to those six verses to begin with. That is you are telling I must believe those verses are true in order to believe that they are true. If that is not a circular argument, I don't know what is.

Seriously, Red, you really have not given me any reason to believe any of it. I could just as well believe the truth is in the teachings of Buddha. And please don't tell me I must first be "zapped" by something you call regeneration in order to believe in God. Why would I believe that if I don't even believe in God.

Now I know that some of my response here has been a bit tongue-in-cheek, but in all honesty, you have not told me why coming to believe in God is any different than coming to believe in any other personally non-provable thing.

Jim, I find this post of yours very strangely written~it does not sound like you. Let me ponder this to even consider if I should respond to your post.

 

[Mr GLee]

Why do so many think that believing in God is somehow different than believing in any other personally non-provable thing. Just about everyone believes in the consciousness of the human being. But even today with all that we know about the human brain and the human mind there is little proof that it is even a real thing. It is pure conjecture supported by what some would call experiential evidence. And yet nearly all believe in something called consciousness.

I would think his thoughts are not ours. . neither his ways.

It is different as to power. Christ alone can say "let there be" and what he hoped for appeared as a witness of the hope or faith.

I tried it on my wife. One out of four.. . Struck out! LOL

Some attributed our first love. Christ in us giving us ears to hear his faithful understanding. Christ's power of love working in us giving it over to Nicodemus as if Gods thoughts were of dying mankind .

Christ repenting (turn them) called them back by his powerful labor of love. Turning them back to do the first works . . . . . "believe God" not Nicodemus the temporal seen.

Revelation 2:1-7 Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks; I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars: And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted. Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. (Christ working in us) Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; (believe Christ yoked with us.)or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent. But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitanes, which I also hate. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches;

To kinds of faith One dead no power. . let there be and nothing changed nothing. and living word "let there be"

Two (1) Let there be and (2) the testimony it is good . . the one witness God spoke

 

[Mr GLee]

Mr. Glee~I truly cannot make heads or tail out of this post (#22) of your. No pun intended, I have read many of your post, and left wondering exactly what you were desiring to say, maybe something very good that needed to be said, but I must admit I'm at lost as to where you are going most of the time. Is English your first language?

Thanks .. I lean more towards the use of parables "they" as it seems are designed teach us how to walk or understand Christ the unseen things of God. Hiden for natural uncovered mankind

The other part a bad excuse my writing skills are in the learning curve stage. slow learner Reading slowly prayerfully . I hated reading except comics books . and English class .It has come back to haunt (LOL)

Sorry. The word faith has many of personal understanding as opinions .I would think the most misunderstood word in the Bible. Hard to understand. . impossible without Christ the power source of his understanding (faith)

There are two sources of understanding (faith) (1)Christ's true prophecy (sola scriptura). And (2)the father of lies. . . false oral traditons of dying mankind . . patron saints a legion of his and hers gods.

Is faith a work?

Is it a power?

Why does he call us ye of little faith .?

How much does he freely give?

Peter and the other apostles knowing they did not have the strength to forgive their neighbor 490 time a day Prayed to Christ increase his power that worked in the apostles as it does today

Note. . (PURPLE) = my understanding.

Luke 17:4-6King James Version And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.And the apostles said unto the Lord, Increase our (new born again) faith. And the Lord said, If ye had faith (Christ, the faith understanding of the powerful faithful creator ) as a grain of mustard seed, ye might say unto this sycamine tree, Be thou plucked up by the root, and be thou planted in the sea; and it should obey you.

​

 

[JIM]

Jim, I find this post of yours very strangely written~it does not sound like you. Let me ponder this to even consider if I should respond to your post.

Then let me ask you a more direct question. You know that I believe in God, in Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior, and in the gospel. You would tell me that is only possible if I have first been born again, i.e., regenerated. I believe that I have been born again, but I believe that I believed in God first and then was born again. That is, faith first then born again. If my faith, my belief in God, is a gift from God as you claim, how come that gift didn't give me the truth?

 

[JIM]

Mr. Glee~I truly cannot make heads or tail out of this post (#22) of your. No pun intended, I have read many of your post, and left wondering exactly what you were desiring to say, maybe something very good that needed to be said, but I must admit I'm at lost as to where you are going most of the time. Is English your first language?

Don't feel alone in that Red. I get that with nearly every one of Mr. Glee's posts. I have mostly given up even trying.

 

[Red Baker]

Then let me ask you a more direct question. You know that I believe in God, in Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior, and in the gospel. You would tell me that is only possible if I have first been born again, i.e., regenerated. I believe that I have been born again, but I believe that I believed in God first and then was born again. That is, faith first then born again. If my faith, my belief in God, is a gift from God as you claim, how come that gift didn't give me the truth?

Faith is a gift~but to believe that the power to believe is freely given, which in turn, automatically grants complete understanding of doctrine is a misconception; while faith is without question a gift from God, it doesn't necessarily mean clarity on every theological discussion/detail~ as the process of studying scripture and seeking wisdom, and other perquisites is still required to discern truth in doctrine; essentially, faith provides the foundation to seek and understand deeper truths, not a complete set of answers on its own.

Brother, God owes no man truth, it is something we must seek with all of our being, as much as lieth within us. Solomon's Proverbs has much to say on this subject.

 

[makesends]

Aside: I can't see any mention of Bitcoin in scripture *giggle*

Just a warning here. I'm not an admin but I can tell you from personal experience —too much giggle when you are old produces *gasp-choke*!

 

[Josheb]

Faith comes by hearing. How does faith come by hearing? How does this work? How does scripture teach this?

God creates the occasion when and where the gospel is preached and heard. God enables of empowers both the speaker's articulation and the hearer's understanding. Listening and hearing are two different things. So too are hearing and understanding. Scripture teaches no one is righteous, "here is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God," (Ps. 53:2-3; Rom. 3:11). When that is applied to a crowd listening to the gospel being preached to non-believers that necessarily means the crowd is sinful and none of its individuals are seeking God , and God, of course, knows that. Scripture also teaches there are some occasions when and where God actively prevents understanding of what is said/heard. Isaiah 6:9, Matthew 113:14, Mark, 4:12, Luke 8:10, John 12:40, Acts 28:26 and other passages would be clearly stated examples of this.

Some people like to read Romans 10:17 through the concepts of modern psychology but scripture is not about psychology (even though it asserts many truths pertaining to human psychology). Paul was not writing a psychological treatise. Because the psychology schema is assumed the reading is biased and the resulting interpretation is confirmation bias. Paul would not have attributed his own hearing to his own cognitive faculties or intellect. He would have attributed it to the sovereign act of knocking him of his donkey, striking him blind and forcing him to submit to make his ignorance and impotence palpably and undeniably understood. For Paul the "hearing" would refer to the voice from heaven on the Damascus road and the events transpiring in Ananias' house; both of which were divinely sovereign appointments in which Paul wasn't even asked if he wanted to participate. That "hearing" would be juxtaposed or contrasted with the scores of occasions he heard Jesus (and possibly other disciples) preach. It's likely Paul was there when Jesus entered Jerusalem the first time, early in his earthly ministry. Paul was likely there again when Jesus entered Jerusalem on what we now call "Palm Sunday." Paul was there when the money changers got chased out of the temple and he was there the next day when Jesus was teaching in the temple's courtyard, and again when throughout the day Jesus confronted the Pharisees and other Jewish leaders. Paul was probably there when Jesus was interrogated by the Sanhedrin. Paul had heard the gospel, but he hadn't heard the gospel. Soundwaves left Jesus' mouth and moved through the air and entered the ears of many people, including Saul of Tarsus but they were not understood or comprehended. The Son of God stood face to face, in person, with one of the individuals who probably knew more about what scripture teaches about God's Anointed One and he did not understand!

Paul repeatedly spoke of salvation being done to him, not something he chose. He was crucified with Christ; he did not ask to be crucified. He no longer lived; he did not ask to cease to exist. Grace and faith were gifted to him, and it was not of himself. That is how Rom. 10:7 should be understood: the occasion when the gospel is spoken and heard is a divine gift, the ability to hear comes from God and so too does the understanding of whatever sounds proceed through the ear canals. The resulting faith is a gift, not a product of biological and psychological cause and effect dictated by the sinfully dead and enslaved sinner's will.

Does proclaiming the gospel message to people of itself compel faith in the hearer?

No. If it did then everyone who has ever heard the gospel preached would believe.

Or, is it possible that the external call by itself produces faith in the heart of the natural man?

I would not separate the "external call" from the Caller and assign any inherent power to the call apart from the purpose of the Caller. While it is true the word of God is living and active, able to penetrate and divide soul and spirit, and judge the thoughts and attitudes of the heart (Heb. 4:12) it does so and accomplishes its purpose only as God decides. If God wants the words understood then they will be understood and if He does not want the words to be understood, then they will not be understood. However, the hearing and understanding are not simply either/or options as some may imagine. Some hear and do not understand. Some hear and understand but do not believe what they understand. In other words, some hear and understand solely to the point of intellectual assent and intellectual assent never saves. Salvation by knowledge and understanding is Gnostic. Still others hear correctly, understand correctly, and believe the facts preached, but they do not believe the truth, its significance, its consequences, and there is no power of salvation for them. God is the mediator of all the various ways in which the gospel is preached, all the ways it is heard, all the ways it is understood, andall of its possible effects.


Isaiah 6:10
Render the hearts of this people insensitive, their ears dull, and their eyes dim, otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts, and return and be healed.


The sinful, disobedient heart is rendered insensitive such that people hear with their ears but do not understand. As a consequence, they do not return, and they are not healed. Otherwise, had the heart not been rendered insensitive, they would hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, repent, and then be healed.


Romans 9:14-24
What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory — even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?


The otter gets to do whatever He likes with the clay. Any protest from the clay occurs only because God gave the clay a voice AND the fact the clay does not understand its impotence relevant to the Potter. It would sit in erosion only to dissipate into nothing, achieving nothing were it not for the Potter. Only after being formed and given its faculties and purpose does it have meaning and serve.

 

[JIM]

Faith is a gift~but to believe that the power to believe is freely given, which in turn, automatically grants complete understanding of doctrine is a misconception; while faith is without question a gift from God, it doesn't necessarily mean clarity on every theological discussion/detail~ as the process of studying scripture and seeking wisdom, and other perquisites is still required to discern truth in doctrine; essentially, faith provides the foundation to seek and understand deeper truths, not a complete set of answers on its own.

Brother, God owes no man truth, it is something we must seek with all of our being, as much as lieth within us. Solomon's Proverbs has much to say on this subject.

But once again, you have assigned a personal (Calvinistic?) bias to the meaning of the word faith which is not biblical. Faith in God is believing in God and vice versa. Believing in God and having faith in God are one and the same. So when you talk about needing faith to believe, that simply does not compute biblically. When you speak of the foundation to seek and understand deeper truths, that is not faith, that is God's word, His written revelation, the Bible. Faith is simply coming to accept the Bible to be true and as a result believing in God. Faith is not a gift; it is never said to be a gift in the Bible. Faith, more often than not, is the result of hard work and dedication in hearing (reading) God's word and accepting it as truth.

 

[makesends]

Now I know that some of my response here has been a bit tongue-in-cheek, but in all honesty, you have not told me why coming to believe in God is any different than coming to believe in any other personally non-provable thing.

Because the very notion, "GOD", implies attributes and activities nothing else could even imitate. (Not to mention that the concept invokes responsibility, obeisance and a different center of the universe from where one might otherwise be oriented!)

 

[JIM]

Because the very notion, "GOD", implies attributes and activities nothing else could even imitate. (Not to mention that the concept invokes responsibility, obeisance and a different center of the universe from where one might otherwise be oriented!)

You are giving me a dissertation on who or what God is, not how one comes to believe in God. To believe in God, I would argue, is not really any more difficult or more complicated than believing in Einstein's theory of relativity. People have been believing in one concept or another of a god since the beginning of time. That we should come to the truth of who and what God really is from reading the material He personally and directly provided to us through the prophets and apostles does not require some mystical eureka moment.

 

[makesends]

But once again, you have assigned a personal (Calvinistic?) bias to the meaning of the word faith which is not biblical. Faith in God is believing in God and vice versa. Believing in God and having faith in God are one and the same. So when you talk about needing faith to believe, that simply does not compute biblically. When you speak of the foundation to seek and understand deeper truths, that is not faith, that is God's word, His written revelation, the Bible. Faith is simply coming to accept the Bible to be true and as a result believing in God. Faith is not a gift; it is never said to be a gift in the Bible. Faith, more often than not, is the result of hard work and dedication in hearing (reading) God's word and accepting it as truth.

You don't see how you have just contradicted yourself?

You said, "Believing in God and having faith in God are one and the same."
Then you said, "So when you talk about needing faith to believe, that simply does not compute..."

If faith and belief are the same thing, then they are not independent of each other. You should, perhaps, have said that it is redundant to say that you need faith to believe.

Nevertheless, it is according to faith that we believe. And that is why it needs to be faith generated by the Spirit of God, and not by the human.

The one is not without the other —true enough— but as for causal sequence, they are not quite one and the same thing, though in speaking of them they are pretty much interchangeable.

 

[makesends]

You are giving me a dissertation on who or what God is, not how one comes to believe in God. To believe in God, I would argue, is not really any more difficult or more complicated than believing in Einstein's theory of relativity. People have been believing in one concept or another of a god since the beginning of time. That we should come to the truth of who and what God really is from reading the material He personally and directly provided to us through the prophets and apostles does not require some mystical eureka moment.

I have presented some of the difficulties involved in the human thinking that is necessary in order to become logical about God, in order to believe in him. If believing in his existence forces instinctive knowledge of submission and a change of self-importance, the flesh is going to rebel. See Romans 1.

 

[Arial]

You are giving me a dissertation on who or what God is, not how one comes to believe in God. To believe in God, I would argue, is not really any more difficult or more complicated than believing in Einstein's theory of relativity. People have been believing in one concept or another of a god since the beginning of time. That we should come to the truth of who and what God really is from reading the material He personally and directly provided to us through the prophets and apostles does not require some mystical eureka moment.

You can believe something and take no action on it whatsoever. You can even acquiesce to Einstein's theory of relativity without even knowing what it is. You can believe in the existence of God while knowing nothing of Him and never having it affect your life in anyway as to the way in which you live. It can be mere acquiescence.

On the other hand a faith that brings salvation to the damned, is a belief that is acted upon. We believe what is said and faith lives as though it is true. But there is an ingredient missing in your comments. And that is Jesus. Salvation does not come through faith in God, but faith in the person and work of Jesus. Of course Jesus is God. But it is the person and work of the flesh and blood Jesus that is redemptive. That is who/what purchases redemption for those who believe. This is where our faith must be, the faith that grants eternal life.

 

[JIM]

You can believe something and take no action on it whatsoever. You can even acquiesce to Einstein's theory of relativity without even knowing what it is. You can believe in the existence of God while knowing nothing of Him and never having it affect your life in anyway as to the way in which you live. It can be mere acquiescence.

On the other hand a faith that brings salvation to the damned, is a belief that is acted upon. We believe what is said and faith lives as though it is true. But there is an ingredient missing in your comments. And that is Jesus. Salvation does not come through faith in God, but faith in the person and work of Jesus. Of course Jesus is God. But it is the person and work of the flesh and blood Jesus that is redemptive. That is who/what purchases redemption for those who believe. This is where our faith must be, the faith that grants eternal life.

There is believing something or someone and there is believing IN something or someone. The first is mental assent; the second is mental assent plus trust. The second is (in English) faith. In Greek it is pisteuo ep or pisteuo en

If you believe in God, then you believe in what God says, which means you believe in Jesus. If you do not believe in Jesus then you do not believe in God.

 

[JIM]

You don't see how you have just contradicted yourself?

You said, "Believing in God and having faith in God are one and the same."
Then you said, "So when you talk about needing faith to believe, that simply does not compute..."

If faith and belief are the same thing, then they are not independent of each other. You should, perhaps, have said that it is redundant to say that you need faith to believe.

Nevertheless, it is according to faith that we believe. And that is why it needs to be faith generated by the Spirit of God, and not by the human.

The one is not without the other —true enough— but as for causal sequence, they are not quite one and the same thing, though in speaking of them they are pretty much interchangeable.

They are the same word in Greek.

 

[Arial]

There is believing something or someone and there is believing IN something or someone. The first is mental assent; the second is mental assent plus trust.

You have that backwards.

When we believe someone, that means we believe what they say and our actions show the belief. When we believe God it means we believe what he says in the word about Christ, and our faith rests on those things. (Of course we believe everything he says, but I am putting this in the context of salvation.)

When we believe in someone it is not the same as believing in God. In a person to person relationship, yes it is the same as faith. But it is faith in the person. But when it comes to God----who is invisible whereas people are not---- believing in him very well might mean nothing more than you believe he exists. It becomes something that must be clarified.

If you believe in God, then you believe in what God says, which means you believe in Jesus. If you do not believe in Jesus then you do not believe in God.

Not always. Muslims believe in God.JW's believe in God. Many who are anti-religion believe in God. Many attend church every Sunday for their whole lives, and believe in God. Jews believe in God. And yet, they do not believe what God says about Jesus. Probably most believe that Jesus is real and he really existed, but they do not believe he died and rose again from the dead, or made atonement for sin.