Eternal Justification?

[makesends]

All are born as lost sinners, and all saved must receive Jesus as their savior and Lord to become one of his sheep then, and that faith itself is a gift from God to us, as the Holy Spirit regenerates us and grants us saving faith to now get saved

"...to become one of his sheep"? Are they not his sheep WHEN they are regenerated?

What do you make of Jesus' statement, here? John 10: "16 I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd." —Are those sheep already regenerated at the time Jesus said that, or is that a future event subsequent to his statement? It doesn't say anything about them becoming sheep, nor even of them becoming HIS sheep.

 

[brightfame52]

Another reason for eternal justification of Gods elect, which is closely akin to His being Mediator, is that He was also made I believe to be a Surety for Gods Elect before the foundation Heb 7:22

22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.

That belter testament or covenant is the everlasting covenant which was confirmed as the new covenant in time.

And He's called the Mediator of the new covenant as well Heb 12:24

And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

As such Mediator Surety He became responsible for the sins of the elect before the foundation, hence they themselves never became responsible for their sins, so therefore Justified from them.

 

[Carbon]

brightfame52 said:
No it doesn't, Christ purged their sins away b4 they were born Heb 1:3

Arial​

Then they did not need to have any faith. And he did not bring them to life when they were dead in their trespasses. You make a liar out of the Bible and the Bible is the word of God.

Nice catch and great point @Arial. But I am not so sure @brightfame52 actually sees this. I don't think he does. @brightfame52 ?

I can't help but wonder if he actually ever considered Ephesians 2:8 in light of this? For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,

 

[Arial]

Nice catch and great point @Arial. But I am not so sure @brightfame52 actually sees this. I don't think he does. @brightfame52 ?

I can't help but wonder if he actually ever considered Ephesians 2:8 in light of this? For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,

Ask him what the purpose of faith is? In the past he has indicated in posts to me that faith, yes, is a gift of God, but faith is when we know that we were already justified before we were born.

 

[Arial]

As such Mediator Surety He became responsible for the sins of the elect before the foundation, hence they themselves never became responsible for their sins, so therefore Justified from them.

He agreed in the Covenant of Redemption to become that surety. He was not the surety until he became the surety.

Just like if Bob tells the court he will pay Fred's penal fine, (a surety) he is only promising to pay the fine. He has not acted as surety until he actually pays the fine.

 

[John Bauer]

All saved must receive Jesus as their Savior and Lord to become one of his sheep …

[Emphasis added.]

John 10:26 according to JesusFan: “You are not my sheep because you do not believe.

John 10:26 according to Jesus: “You do not believe because you are not my sheep.”

 

[brightfame52]

He agreed in the Covenant of Redemption to become that surety. He was not the surety until he became the surety.

Thats all He needed to do was agree. Like a handshake Prov 6 1

My son, if thou be surety for thy friend, if thou hast stricken thy hand with a stranger,

The Father took Him at His word, He could Trust Him.

Thats why it reads it behooved Him Heb 2:17

17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

The word behoved is opheilō:

1. to owe
   
   1. to owe money, be in debt for
      
      1. that which is due, the debt

He came to fulfill the debt of obligation as Surety.

So the debt was always to be paid by Him and not the elect because of Covenant. God wouldn't expect payment from the Surety and the debtors at the same time. He is too just for that.

 

[Arial]

The Father took Him at His word, He could Trust Him.

That is not the point. "Trust" is not the point. The point is doing the work of a surety. It isn't done until its done.

Thats why it reads it behooved Him Heb 2:17

17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

The word behoved is

1. to owe
   1. to owe money, be in debt for
      1. that which is due, the debt

First of all, you use a verse that is referring to why Jesus was made like his brethren and use it to define what it means to be a surety.

Second, you take an isolated meaning of ōpheilen (not opheilō in the passage) without considering other usages of the word in scriptures that convey no meanning of "be in debt for". Such as Eph 5:28 where it is translated "ought". In the NT it is often used as covenantal or relational duties and so is the case in Heb 2:17.

Therefore, it is much more clearly translated as to meaning in most translations other than the KJV as "had to be made like his brothers".

ESV
Therefore he had to be made like his brothers in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.

But still---it is not talking about surety. It is talking about why he had to come as one of us.

So the debt was always to be paid by Him and not the elect because of Covenant. God wouldn't expect payment from the Surety and the debtors at the same time. He is too just for that.

God never extracts payment from the elect. Because Jesus became surety for our debt---on the cross. No cross, no surety. He was always going to be the surety, but he was not the surety until he performed the duties of a surety.

 

[brightfame52]

Another reason for eternal justification of Gods elect is that before the world began, according to their being chosen in Christ, they were blessed [in Him] with all spiritual blessings, and justification is a spiritual blessing. Eph 1:3-4

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

 

[Arial]

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

He is writing to those who have already come to faith and been united with Christ through that faith.

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

That is what he chose us for----not what we were born already having, His choosing was before the foundation of the world. Not our justification.

 

[brightfame52]

That is what he chose us for----not what we were born already having, His choosing was before the foundation of the world. Not our justification.

Theres a election union in Christ b4 the foundation of the world. And grace was given the elect in that union before the world began 2 Tim 1:9

9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

 

[Arial]

Theres a election union in Christ b4 the foundation of the world. And grace was given the elect in that union before the world began 2 Tim 1:9

"Election" is not the union. The union is through faith. So says Scripture. The election predestinates that the union is certain because God is the "acter" from beginning to end. Monergism. He chooses and he gives to Christ.

9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

That verse teaches eternal purpose, not eternal justification. If it were teaching eternal justification Paul would be contradicting himself in Rom 5:1; Romans 8:30; Gal 2:16. What Paul is saying is "Your salvation rests on God's eternal purpose, not your performance." It is pastoral and for encouragement.

 

[brightfame52]

"Election" is not the union.

You dont believe the elect were in union with Christ Jesus b4 the foundation of the world ? Eph 1:4

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

 

[JesusFan]

John 10:26 according to JesusFan: “You are not my sheep because you do not believe.

John 10:26 according to Jesus: “You do not believe because you are not my sheep.”

actually, per me and jesus, the goat became his sheep due to them being the very elect of God

 

[JesusFan]

"...to become one of his sheep"? Are they not his sheep WHEN they are regenerated?

What do you make of Jesus' statement, here? John 10: "16 I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd." —Are those sheep already regenerated at the time Jesus said that, or is that a future event subsequent to his statement? It doesn't say anything about them becoming sheep, nor even of them becoming HIS sheep.

I see the bible stating top us all of us are goats, and that those of us who are the chosen and elect of the father to be found in Christ shall be the very ones who confirm that election by receiving Jesus as Lord thru faith, and we can have that faith due to the Holy spirit regenerating us and granting to us saving faith and ears to now hear and hearts and minds now enabled to respond

 

[makesends]

I see the bible stating top us all of us are goats, and that those of us who are the chosen and elect of the father to be found in Christ shall be the very ones who confirm that election by receiving Jesus as Lord thru faith, and we can have that faith due to the Holy spirit regenerating us and granting to us saving faith and ears to now hear and hearts and minds now enabled to respond

While that is one way to look at our pre-regenerate state, how does that render us not already sheep, when Scripture calls us sheep? Notice not only my post on the matter —John 10:16— but also what @John Bauer said —John 10:26— in post #86? The elect ARE his sheep, even before they are in the flock. That they would be goats, but for his mercy, does not render them not sheep.

 

[makesends]

actually, per me and jesus, the goat became his sheep due to them being the very elect of God

Show the reference.

 

[Arial]

You dont believe the elect were in union with Christ Jesus b4 the foundation of the world ? Eph 1:4

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

No, I don't and we already went over that Scripture. Did you forget?
God did the choosing before the foundation of the world, and that predestined us to be united with Christ, in time, so that we would be holy and without blame before him---because he loves us.

 

[brightfame52]

No, I don't and we already went over that Scripture.

Okay but dont forget this, Im not you. I believe it regardless of how you fell about it.

 

[Arial]

Okay but dont forget this, Im not you. I believe it regardless of how you fell about it.

That is a point of nothing. What does the Scripture SAY. What did Paul mean when he wrote it? He couldn't have meant we were justified before we were born because he insists over and over that we are justified THROUGH faith. You need to show anywhere in Scripture that it says we are justified before we are born instead of just wrongfullly interpreting your select out of context and proof texts. And you need to give texts that are actually speaking about justification and not something else.