Eternal Justification?

[brightfame52]

You said, "...the elect had to have union with Christ in order for God to love them."

Yes because The Love of God is in Christ Jesus. And I will add that the elect has always been His Seed. Just like the elect had a union with Adam at the beginning.

Do you believe Christ as the Head of the Church existed before creation ? And if so, was He then Loved by the Father ?

 

[Arial]

Another reason for eternal justification of Gods elect, which is connected to His Suretyship, and that is the non imputation of sin.
God purposed not to punish sin in His Elect but in His Son, the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world Rev 13:8. His counsel to punish sin in His Son, who became sin for us, includes also His will to impute sin to Him. Uniformly, the Father’s purpose not to punish sin in His elect includes His will not to impute it to them, and is their justification from all sin in His sight 2 Cor 5:19

If sin wasn't imputed to the elect, God would have to cancel is verdict with Adam as federal head of humanity. For everyone, not just the elect. God is not actively imputing sin individually by decree, but sin is imputed by covenantal union with Adam, which God judicially recognizes. It is their being in Adam that does that. And it is the very reason no one is born already justified. It is the very reason in order to be saved one must come to faith in Christ in time.

God's purpose not to condemn sin in the elect is not executed by eternal non-imputation, but by giving by giving them to Christ through regeneration and the application of Christ's saving work to them. Faith. And if they are born with no imputed sin (which they are not) the only reason they would need to be redeemed would be if they did sin. And 100% of the population from the beginning and until the end, who were born in Adam, do sin. And if that is never counted against them because they are already justified, regeneration by the Spirit, calling, hearing, believing, repenting, are all meaningless. In fact, there is no need of his Word at all. Line by line, precept upon precept.

Now, in all fairness of interaction, I would like to see you break down the logic of that to show me that it is wrong. Not just isolated sound bites that are not even speaking of justification.

 

[brightfame52]

Now, in all fairness of interaction, I would like to see you break down the logic of that to show me that it is wrong. Not just isolated sound bites that are not even speaking of justification.

Sorry I have posted my reasons for my views, and you disagree with them thus far. I have been interacting, if you dont think so then do what you need to do as administration, you not bullying me. if you put me off the site, guess what, it was decreed by God, it will be His will. So dont expect me bow to you, I will interact with with whomever I want. So Im going to leave at that and see what the will of the Lord is,
Makesend's Mod Hat, (not @Arial's): This post violates Rules 1.1; 2.1; 2.2; 4.3 and 6.3, to which you by posting on this site have agreed to abide. I leave it here (with strikethrough) instead of deleting it, as a reference to what not to do. If you must talk this way, do so in a DM to the person with whom you are interacting, or by Report.

 

[makesends]

Responding to @Arial brightfame52 said:
Not to you, but Im not you. Also the elect had to have union with Christ in order for God to love them. See Gods Love is solely in Christ Jesus Rom 8:39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

makesends said:
So you are saying that he never imputed Adam's sin to the elect????

brightfame52 said:
Yes it was imputed to Christ. 2 Cor 5:21. You dont believe all the sins of the elect were imputed to Christ for Him to die for, including their sin in Adam ?

makesends said:
Of course they were imputed to Christ! That isn't my question, nor is that implied by my question.

Thats what it seems to me. I dont see why you would ask that question. Of course Christ died for all the sins of the elect to include Adam.

None of us here is saying Christ did not die for the sins of all the elect, including Adam. We are saying it is not applied in the temporal frame until the elect individual is given regeneration and faith.

Why don't you pursue your logic to its end implication—that we are eternal creatures, without a beginning, like God?

Also the elect had to have union with Christ in order for God to love them.

makesends said:
You are saying that Adam's sin was never imputed to the elect!

Right it was imputed to Christ with the rest of the elects sins.

I'm (rather obviously) not saying it was not imputed to Christ at the Cross with the rest of the elect's sin. I'm saying that that fact does not imply that we were never imputed with Adam's sin. To say we were not, is to contradict Scripture, and the related Doctrines of Sin, not to mention God's Attributes of Aseity, Omnipotence, Immanence, Justice and Love.

You are saying that we never needed saved, after all.

makesends said:
If it wasn't for the millions of believers who don't [even] know of Adam's sin imputed to us, I'd call this heresy.

So when was the elects sin in Adam imputed to Christ ?

At the Cross. Decreed from Eternity past. Applied when regenerated and saved. Remember, God is not restricted to time. He doesn't see this the way you do. He doesn't "collapse categories", as @Arial puts it.

 

[brightfame52]

None of us here is saying Christ did not die for the sins of all the elect, including Adam. We are saying it is not applied in the temporal frame until the elect individual is given regeneration and faith.

okay I have already explained this. Christ became responsible for the sins of the elect b4 they were born. Thats legally and its between The Father and the Son, the elect didnt even have to be born yet in time, so when they sinned in adam, the legal condemnation they incurred Rom 5:18

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life

That condemnation the elect incurred, because Christ has already been setup as Covenant Surety, it was transferred to Christ and put to His account, legally. When the elect sinned in Adam at the beginning of the world, Jesus as Surety was already responsible for it Rev 13:8

s. 8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world

1 Pet 1:20

: 20 ;who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

He was responsible, foreordained for the sins of the elect before the foundation of the world, so when in time in Adam when they sinned, their condemnation, legally was His.

Now they still born sinners and enemies by nature, but their condemnation is legally Christ. Now of course later in time they will be delivered from their natural enmity against God when they are quickened, given spiritual life and then given Faith to believe in Christ. Now if you disagree that's fine, this is what God has taught me as being the truth. Now if you believe the elect were still legally condemned by their sin in adam and their personal natural sins when they were born, I believe that's error and it disregards Christ previously having already taken responsibility legally for that condemnation

So please I don't want to hear all this stuff about not communicating, if you all don't agree then fine. It still could be beneficial for someone else. Now I will continue to post more reasons for my convictions if I don't get banned, that's all up to God, and I don't mind if people disagree, I cant make people see my pov

 

[makesends]

That condemnation the elect incurred, because Christ has already been setup as Covenant Surety, it was transferred to Christ and put to His account, legally

You say the condemnation was incurred, but you claim it was not imputed. What???

Nobody is saying it was not transferred to Christ's account. We are saying it does not go into effect according to your temporal sequence.

You keep explaining in basically the same way. It does not explain anything except that you prefer your temporal sequence at the loss of several passages of Scripture that definitely pose your notion some real problems. You are playing, "It is, but it isn't."

 

[Arial]

Sorry I have posted my reasons for my views, and you disagree with them thus far. I have been interacting, if you dont think so then do what you need to do as administration, you not bullying me. if you put me off the site, guess what, it was decreed by God, it will be His will. So dont expect me bow to you, I will interact with with whomever I want. So Im going to leave at that and see what the will of the Lord is,

I did not ask for your reasons for your views. I ask you to break down the logic of MY post if it is wrong and show how it is wrong. Will/can you do that? Or will you attack me instead?

 

[Arial]

He was responsible, foreordained for the sins of the elect before the foundation of the world, so when in time in Adam when they sinned, their condemnation, legally was His.

Jesus came legally condemned?! But we came never condemned? That's the worst of all the man centered Christian doctrine I have ever heard.

 

[brightfame52]

You say the condemnation was incurred, but you claim it was not imputed. What???

It was imputed to Christ. God looked to Christ to deal with their condemnation. When Jesus came into the world it was to pay their debt of condemnation and sin Heb 2:17


Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
The word behoved means:

1. to owe
   
   
   1. to owe money, be in debt for
      
      1. that which is due, the debt
2. metaph. the goodwill due

See Christ was charged with the debt of the Sheep, not the Sheep

Do you believe the Sheep and the indebted Shepherd both at the same time owed the debt for their sins ? Yes or no

 

[brightfame52]

Nobody is saying it was not transferred to Christ's account

Okay so then it wasnt transferred to their account.

 

[makesends]

It was imputed to Christ. God looked to Christ to deal with their condemnation. When Jesus came into the world it was to pay their debt of condemnation and sin Heb 2:17

I didn't say that you were saying it was not imputed to Christ. You said it was not imputed to us, yet you say we incurred sin. Self-contradictory.

 

[makesends]

Okay so then it wasnt transferred to their account.

No. I didn't say it was transferred from Adam's account to ours. Where do you even come up with that structure? We did not take Adam's sin upon us so that he was no longer responsible for it. Imputation of Adam's sin is not transferral of Adam's sin off of him onto us.

 

[brightfame52]

. We are saying it does not go into effect according to your temporal sequence.

I disagree, the exchange was in effect legally b4 the foundation, when Jesus entered into the world via the incarnation He was indebted with the sins of the elect. Heb 2:17

@makesends

You keep explaining in basically the same way. It does not explain anything except that you prefer your temporal sequence at the loss of several passages of Scripture that definitely pose your notion some real problems. You are playing, "It is, but it isn't."

I believe you just lack understanding of this truth. As far as Im concerned its been explained over and over.

 

[brightfame52]

No. I didn't say it was transferred from Adam's account to ours.

It doesnt matter if you said it or not, Im saying it. The sins of the elect were transferred to the account of Christ, That left them legally free from the condemnation

Where do you even come up with that structure? We did not take Adam's sin upon us so that he was no longer responsible for it.

The elect were not legally responsible for the debt of sin and condemnation they incurred because Christ was as their surety. Now do you believe God held both the elect responsible and Christ at the same time ? Thats injustice and would overthrow Christs purpose for coming into the world 1 Jn 3 5

And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

He was responsble for this prior to being manifested via the incarnation

 

[brightfame52]

Jesus came legally condemned?! But we came never condemned?

Correct, lest you believe both the elect and Jesus were legally condemned for the same sins at the same time. That doesn't make sense

 

[makesends]

It was imputed to Christ. God looked to Christ to deal with their condemnation. When Jesus came into the world it was to pay their debt of condemnation and sin Heb 2:17


Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
The word behoved means:

1. to owe
   
   
   1. to owe money, be in debt for
      1. that which is due, the debt
2. metaph. the goodwill due

See Christ was charged with the debt of the Sheep, not the Sheep

Do you believe the Sheep and the indebted Shepherd both at the same time owed the debt for their sins ? Yes or no

Of course not! What's that got to do with whether or not we were imputed with Adam's sin guilt? Nobody is saying that we both at the same time owed the debt for our sins!

Only if we were imputed with it, can Christ be imputed with it on our behalf.

It doesnt matter if you said it or not, Im saying it. The sins of the elect were transferred to the account of Christ, That left them legally free from the condemnation

That is not what you said. You are moving the goalposts back again, and not answering me. You used the notion as proof of non-imputation of Adam's sin to us, some wayward strawman about whether Adam's sin was transferred (not, "imputed") to us. I said, of course not! That's silly! Then you ignore your self-contradictory arrangement of God imputing our unimputed (from Adam to us) sin to Christ, to ask me if it is possible for both Christ and ourselves to bear the debt of sin at the same time. It is ludicrous.

Somebody else step in here. SMH

 

[brightfame52]

Of course not!

Thats my point. I believe Christ became indebted with the sins of the elect b4 the world began. I didnt say He died for them b4 the world began, but was indebted with them b4 the world began. You dont agree ?

 

[brightfame52]

What's that got to do with whether or not we were imputed with Adam's sin guilt?

Everything, Christ was charged with it, not the elect. The elect incurred it, but Jesus was Surety for them and what they incurred.

 

[makesends]

Arial said:
Jesus came legally condemned?! But we came never condemned?

Correct, lest you believe both the elect and Jesus were legally condemned for the same sins at the same time. That doesn't make sense

It is what YOU are saying that doesn't make sense. You continue to pose this as both at the same time. And that, against Scripture telling us we were guilty, and responsible for our sin. Yes, Jesus was imputed with out sin, and it was also transferred to him, FROM us—even off of us, as Pilgrim's Progress describes it. But WHEN, or even in what temporal sequence, it happened, is immaterial. You grant eternal constancy, solidity in God's economy, with what God says is a vapor by comparison. AGAIN, WHEN IT HAPPENED IN TIME IS IRRELEVANT TO THE FACT THAT IT DID HAPPEN.

MOD HAT: @Brightfame, this kind of OP really needs to be posted under "FORUMS>THEOLOGY>Doctrinal Explorations (Under Instruction)" since it is does not align with Orthodoxy. And then, you need to try to listen instead of preach. You have made your thesis clear enough, and your particular logic too. Now you need to try to listen.

 

[brightfame52]

That is not what you said.

Thats false I have always stated the sins of the elect were transferred to Christ. Thats the responsibility of Suretyship, So when do you think Jesus became Surety of the everlasting covenant ?