Eternal Justification?

[brightfame52]

I'm not playing your game. You're using JW tactics.

Okay if thats your sentiment

 

[brightfame52]

Talk about a misrepresentation!

Well I could be wrong, however Im pretty sure you have stated that the elect are not Justified b4 God until they are regenerated and given Faith. Is that a misrepresentation ?

 

[brightfame52]

The first statement is false. The resurrection is not God's declaration that the ones he died for are justified

I disagree, Rom 4:25

25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

The prep for is dia which means:
hrough

1. the ground or reason by which something is or is not done
   
   1. by reason of
   2. on account of
   3. because of for this reason
   4. therefore
   5. on this account

So I see He was delivered because of our offences and He was raised again because of our Justification.

And that word Justification denotes:

dikaiōsis:

1. the act of God declaring men free from guilt and acceptable to him
2. [adjudging]1 to be righteous, justification

Im not alone in this understanding either,

Rom 4:25 (KJV)
Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

The Lord Jesus was crucified for the sins of His people. (Mat 1:21 KJV) And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. The crucifixion of Jesus was not done for the sins of the whole world but for the sins of the Elect in the whole world. Christ’s crucifixion was accepted by God the Father as payment for the sins of His Elect and when He was raised from the dead, He was raised for our justification. The true Christian was declared righteous and not guilty by reason of the resurrection of Christ. The resurrection was the final confirmation of our removal of sins and our justification. Christ successfully removed the sins from the soul of every one of His children. As He was raised to life, we too shall be raised to life. First, we are raised to spiritual life by means of being born again. (Rev 20:6 KJV) Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. The first resurrection being the resurrection of our soul from death to newness of life. (Rom 6:4 KJV) Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. Secondly, our physical bodies will be resurrected at the last day, in the same fashion that Christ’s body was raised from the dead. (John 5:28-29 KJV) Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, {29} And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Back Romans 4:18-25

I could multiply more ! And its noted you disagree !

 

[brightfame52]

It is proof of God's accepting the work of Christ to make justification of the elect possible through faith.

This is false, and its degrades the work of Christ to merely making Justification possible ! This statement gives the credit to faith either whats in a sinner or whats done by the sinner to be Justified b4 God

 

[brightfame52]

. Immediately in 5:1 he says "Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God."

Actually b4 Rom 5:1 is the declaration of Rom 4:25 hence the word therfore is referring back to the Truth of Rom 4:25 and so Faith receives the declaration, the testimony of God from Rom 4:25,

And many see the comma in Rom 5:1 as in the wrong place and could very well be placed after Justified like Rom 5:1

Therefore being justified, by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Being Justified is aorist passive, a past tense verb, and by faith we have peace is present tense

And even if we go with Justified by Faith, Faith looks back to the object, Christ who Justified us from Rom 4:25. If you continue to insist that one isnt Justified b4 God until faith is wrought in them and they believe, that's justification by works and or by a grace wrought in me by the Spirit. Thats arminianism

 

[makesends]

Being Justified is aorist passive, a past tense verb, and by faith we have peace is present tense

Not that if you were right here it would make your case, but no, the aorist passive participle only refers to a point in time, done to us. That it logically was done in the past, being completed, does not imply that it happened and not applied later. In fact, the difference in tenses ties them intrinsically together, in this theme of peace with God. It also could as easily be saying that the justification is by faith, as to be saying that the peace is by faith. In the usual Greek cadence, that makes more sense, since 'peace' is grammatically modified elsewhere, (with "through our Lord Jesus Christ). Otherwise, the meaning would be, ...peace by faith through the Lord Jesus Christ. Are you saying that the faith is through our Lord Jesus Christ? If so, your arrangement doesn't mention it. "Being justified" is not stand-alone.

 

[Arial]

Actually b4 Rom 5:1 is the declaration of Rom 4:25 hence the word therfore is referring back to the Truth of Rom 4:25 and so Faith receives the declaration, the testimony of God from Rom 4:25,

Yes, faith receives the declaration (verdict) of justified. Exactly what I said. You say the cross is the declaration (verdict) justified.

And many see the comma in Rom 5:1 as in the wrong place and could very well be placed after Justified like Rom 5:1

Therefore being justified, by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

There is a grain of truth to the comma assertion. And that grain is that the Greek manuscripts had no commas, therefore the comma, wherever it is put, it is put is not inspired. But the Greek grammar will not allow faith to be demoted to mere awareness.
Romans 5:1 (Greek):

Δικαιωθέντες οὖν ἐκ πίστεως, εἰρήνην ἔχομεν πρὸς τὸν θεόν

Literally: Having been justified therefore out of faith, we have peace with God. By/from faith grammatically modifies having been justified. It is not adverbial to "we know," we realize," or "we experience". Either way the meaning is the same. We are justified by faith.

Being Justified is aorist passive, a past tense verb, and by faith we have peace is present tense

See above.

 

[Arial]

And even if we go with Justified by Faith, Faith looks back to the object, Christ who Justified us from Rom 4:25. If you continue to insist that one isnt Justified b4 God until faith is wrought in them and they believe, that's justification by works and or by a grace wrought in me by the Spirit. Thats arminianism

No, it isn't a work because it is not a faith generated by us to merit grace of salvation but is a gift from God. Eph 2. Part and parcel of the new birth.

 

[Arial]

This is false, and its degrades the work of Christ to merely making Justification possible ! This statement gives the credit to faith either whats in a sinner or whats done by the sinner to be Justified b4 God

Only if you interpret Eph 2:8-9 the way the Arminianism does. Reformation theology does not interpret it that way but just as it is written. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

What degrades the cross is to say that the elect were justified before they were born, before the foundation of the world, even before Christ ever went to the cross. Or that Christ was crucified before he was crucified and was crucified again. Whch is the natural conclusion of your theory.

 

[brightfame52]

Not that if you were right here it would make your case, but no, the aorist passive participle only refers to a point in time, done to us

Yes at the Cross. Now answer me this. When did Jesus as Surety become legally responsible for the sins and condemnation for the elect. Its a Covenant Heb 7:22

22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.

 

[brightfame52]

"Being justified" is not stand-alone.

You not paying attention. Being Justified looks back to the facts of Rom 4:25

25 ;Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

See post # 43

 

[brightfame52]

Yes, faith receives the declaration (verdict) of justified.

Correct. So the Justification was a fact, Faith receives the knowledge of the fact.

 

[makesends]

You not paying attention. Being Justified looks back to the facts of Rom 4:25

25 ;Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

See post # 43

You're not hearing me. I'm not saying that it doesn't look back to the facts of Rom 4:25. (After all, it looks back and forward to many, many, things). I'm saying that grammatically, it doesn't stand alone in the text. It is modified with "by faith". You want to make it its own entity, done and done. It is not.

 

[makesends]

Yes at the Cross. Now answer me this. When did Jesus as Surety become legally responsible for the sins and condemnation for the elect. Its a Covenant Heb 7:22

22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.

Already told you I'm not playing that game. Make your point.

 

[Arial]

25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

The prep for is dia which means:
hrough

1. the ground or reason by which something is or is not done
   1. by reason of
   2. on account of
   3. because of for this reason
   4. therefore
   5. on this account

So I see He was delivered because of our offences and He was raised again because of our Justification.

And that word Justification denotes:

dikaiōsis:

1. the act of God declaring men free from guilt and acceptable to him
2. [adjudging]1 to be righteous, justification

Parts of the response are lexically correct, but the conclusion drawn from them is not valid. The error is not vocabulary—it’s syntax, aspect, and category misuse.

In the very same post you are responding to I covered that. Why is it being ignored? Do you not understand what I am saying? You did not even answer the direct question I asked. "Do you understand what collapsing categories is?

 

[brightfame52]

No, it isn't a work because it is not a faith generated by us to merit grace of salvation but is a gift from God. Eph 2. Part and parcel of the new birth.

Faith causes belief which is an action done by the person. Also Faith is a grace wrought in the regenerated, so you are saying one is Just b4 God based on faith they believe with or by Faith a grace wrought in you. Thats Arminianism and it flat out denies Justification b4 God based on the Person and work of Jesus alone.

What degrades the cross is to say that the elect were justified before they were born

No it doesn't, Christ purged their sins away b4 they were born Heb 1:3

3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

Lets look at simple logic, If Christ back in 33 ad purged away your sins which were charged to Him, and you are born lets say in 1947 as a sinner dead in sin. Has your sins been purged away in 33 ad by Christ ? Yes or No please

 

[brightfame52]

You're not hearing me. I'm not saying that it doesn't look back to the facts of Rom 4:25. (After all, it looks back and forward to many, many, things). I'm saying that grammatically, it doesn't stand alone in the text. It is modified with "by faith". You want to make it its own entity, done and done. It is not.

Well if it looks back to Rom 4:25 my point is made. I see nothing about the grammer that changes my point.

 

[brightfame52]

Already told you I'm not playing that game. Make your point.

Answer the question and its not a game

 

[brightfame52]

Parts of the response are lexically correct, but the conclusion drawn from them is not valid. The error is not vocabulary—it’s syntax, aspect, and category misuse.

Im not getting into all that . Thats what you want, If you deny that the elect are Justified b4 God not until they either believe with the Gift of Faith or have Faith given to them by regeneration, thats arminanism. Doesnt matter about greek syntex

 

[Arial]

Faith causes belief which is an action done by the person. Also Faith is a grace wrought in the regenerated,

Faith and belief are the same thing in this case. Faith doesn't cause belief, it is belief. And both of those sentence can't be true as they contradict each other.

so you are saying one is Just b4 God based on faith they believe with or by Faith a grace wrought in you. Thats Arminianism and it flat out denies Justification b4 God based on the Person and work of Jesus alone.

Why do you make "faith" and "belief" two different categories. Can you speak in something besides logical fallacies---PLEASE!. Faith is a gift. It is part and parcel of regeneration. Belief is a gift. It is part and parcel of regeneration. It is the OPPOSITE of the Arminianism view.

No it doesn't, Christ purged their sins away b4 they were born Heb 1:3

Then they did not need to have any faith. And he did not bring them to life when they were dead in their trespasses. You make a liar out of the Bible and the Bible is the word of God.