Eternal Justification?

[brightfame52]

Faith and belief are the same thing in this case. Faith doesn't cause belief, it is belief

Not even going to argue apples for oranges. In Salvation theyre connected, like in 2 Thess 2:13

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
The word belief is the noun pistis which is normally translated Faith. A person is given Faith so they will believe Heb 11:6

6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

 

[brightfame52]

Then they did not need to have any faith

Why not ? How will they come to know and become assured of the fact without Faith ? See what you fail to realize, when the justifed, sin purged elect is born into the world, theyre dead in sin and ignorant to what Christ has done for them, and like everyone else by nature, they attempt to get right with God on their own. Like these jews Rom 10:3

3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

Thats all men by nature. They will continue in this ignorance until, if they elect, they're born again and brought under the Gospel to hear how Christ has purged their sins and Justified them and imputed righteousness to them, then they find peace with God and God is Glorified. So no disrespect, but to say they dont need faith lacks understanding.

 

[brightfame52]

Belief is a gift. It is part and parcel of regeneration. It is the OPPOSITE of the Arminianism view.

No the similarity is that both arminanism and what you are saying is that God doesn't Justify the elect until they meet a condition. The Arminian says the condition is their own faith while unregenerate, you seem to be saying the condition is your faith received in regeneration. Either way Faith is the condition. Now if you don't believe that way, I have misunderstood you and stand corrected. But I read where you posted this:
@Arial

It is proof of God's accepting the work of Christ to make justification of the elect possible through faith.

 

[Arial]

No the similarity is that both arminanism and what you are saying is that God doesn't Justify the elect until they meet a condition. The Arminian says the condition is their own faith while unregenerate, you seem to be saying the condition is your faith received in regeneration. Either way Faith is the condition. Now if you don't believe that way, I have misunderstood you and stand corrected. But I read where you posted this:

Faith is not a condition that the person must meet if it is something they don't have until God gives it to them. And yes, it comes with regeneration because it is the unregenerate mind that will not accept and cannot believe the gospel. Only the regenerated person can have saving faith. Do you understand that?!

And---you are changing the topic.

 

[Arial]

Why not ? How will they come to know and become assured of the fact without Faith ?

Why would their knowing and being assured even matter if they are already justified? Besides, I already discussed the impossibility of faith being simply knowing that one is justified. You ignored it. You never confront the evidence I give that shows the faultiness of your reasoning and your posting. And that is what I meant in an earlier thread cautioning you to begin engaging with the actual rebuttals. As opposed to just saying they are wrong because it is not what you believe. You never address your own mistakes when they are pointed out.

Not even going to argue apples for oranges. In Salvation theyre connected, like in 2 Thess 2:13

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
The word belief is the noun pistis which is normally translated Faith. A person is given Faith so they will believe Heb 11:6

6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

More category collapse. I give up.

 

[brightfame52]

Faith is not a condition that the person must meet if it is something they don't have until God gives it to them. And yes, it comes with regeneration because it is the unregenerate mind that will not accept and cannot believe the gospel. Only the regenerated person can have saving faith. Do you understand that?!

No you made a statement here

It is proof of God's accepting the work of Christ to make justification of the elect possible through faith.

You said the Death of Christ just made Justification possible ! Scripture teaches the work of Christ for the elect Justified them.

 

[brightfame52]

Why would their knowing and being assured even matter if they are already justified?

That doesnt make sense to me. How can we serve and love God and appreciate Justification through Christ if we dont know about it ?

 

[Arial]

No you made a statement here



You said the Death of Christ just made Justification possible ! Scripture teaches the work of Christ for the elect Justified them.

When they are joined to him through faith. If Jesus had not done that work of perfect righteousness and gone to the cross as a substitute for the elect, they could not be justified; if there were no substitute, no ransom paid, no propitiation made, there would be no imputation of his righteousness and no justification. "Jesus made justification possible" does not mean justification is potential but uncertain. The certainty is in the election, the predestining, the calling.

 

[brightfame52]

"Jesus made justification possible" does not mean justification is potential but uncertain.

Thats arminanism, no matter how you attempt to dress it up

 

[Arial]

Thats arminanism, no matter how you attempt to dress it up

No, it isn't. That is your inability to properly interpret what I said. It is an inability to grasp concepts and ideas and meaning outside one's own box they have nailed themselves into. So, there is no point in expecting that they can produce a decent and profitable conversation.

 

[brightfame52]

No, it isn't.

Yes it is, and even more its an attack on the work of Christ , He actually Justified them He died for legally b4 God by His Blood/Death alone. Aint no such thing as He made Justification possible. And stop the insults, isnt that a violation ?

@Arial

That is your inability to properly interpret what I said. It is an inability to grasp concepts and ideas and meaning outside one's own box they have nailed themselves into.

Insulting one about inability !

 

[Arial]

Yes it is, and even more its an attack on the work of Christ , He actually Justified them He died for legally b4 God by His Blood/Death alone. Aint no such thing as He made Justification possible. And stop the insults, isnt that a violation ?

I haven't insulted you. If you felt insulted, that is on you. It is however a violation of the rules for members to moderate as you have above.

Do you understand that "justified" is a verdict? That is a question, not an insult. It seems like you don't and that is why you cannot see the illogic of what you are saying. If there is no such thing as Jesus making justification possible then there is no justification.

Tell me----and if you don't, I will simply post a list of all the questions you have refused to answer and be done with you---what was it that Jesus did on the cross that provides justification for the believer?

If the elect are born already justified, then why does Paul say in Eph that all believers were dead in their trespasses and children of wrath until God in his mercy made them alive?

Insulting one about inability !

It is obvious that you are unable to properly interpret what I said because you said it back completely wrong. That would be excusable and it certainly isn't an insult to point it out. What is inexcusable is when it is pointed out, the person continues to interpret it wrong and attack the statement with the same continued misinterpretation. And then attack the one whose statement is being misunderstood with an accusation of having been insulted.

 

[brightfame52]

I haven't insulted you.

Yes you have.

 

[John Bauer]

The elect are born justified by the objective work of Christ for them, laid to their charge b4 Gods law and justice. The subjective aspect occurs in time at regeneration and faith and we become subjectively aware and knowledgeable about it. I have told you and others this many may times, so please stop misrepresenting me.

Christ’s obedience and satisfaction are the ground of justification, not the act of justification itself. Justification occurs when God reckons that righteousness to a particular sinner in union with Christ. Saying Christ’s work was “laid to their charge before God’s law” is to say the reckoning already happened.

 

[John Bauer]

As argued by Kuyper, with the guardrails of Bavinck, we can stress the importance of grounding all the works of redemption in God’s eternal counsel without advocating a full-blown doctrine of eternal justification. Justification belongs simultaneously to two distinct orders: (1) the ideal or decretal, wherein justification is eternally willed, secured, and guaranteed in Christ, and (b) the historical and forensic, wherein justification is actually declared in time, by God, through faith, in union with Christ.

This distinction by Bavinck clarifies what Kuyper meant by telic vision (eindaanschouwing). Bavinck insisted, repeatedly, that God’s eternal decree doesn’t bestow a legal status before the moment God himself establishes it in history. We can argue that decree determines certainty without implying simultaneity.

The biblical order is covenantal and redemptive-historical, not eternalized. Election is from eternity, atonement is accomplished in history, justification is applied in time, glorification is future. That order is not arbitrary; it is the economy of salvation as revealed in Scripture.

An eternal justification view turns redemptive history into epistemic revelation.

 

[Arial]

You dont want to answer that question, i dont blame you. Anyone else want to answer it. When was Jesus setup as the Surety of the better Covenant and become responsible for the sins of the elect ?

I did respond to the question.

Those questions are one thing and have their answer. But none of them apply to justification.

You have completely lost (ignored?) the reason I pointed out that the Heb passage was not about justification but about the covenant. You were using it wrong (as proof of eternal justification) when it is not speaking of justification at all. And you are still trying to do the same., It is the worst type of hermeneutic and exegesis.

The question did not apply to the subject at hand. If you must have the question answered directly the answer is: Jesus became surety for a better covenant in the Covenant of Redemption, by agreement to be that surety. He fulfilled the work of that surety on the cross. Justification through faith of the elect is a different category.

Had Jesus gone to the cross when God said to Abraham: "Your faith is counted as righteousness"? And what was that faith?
For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” (Romans 4:3)

 

[Arial]

Yes it is, and even more its an attack on the work of Christ , He actually Justified them He died for legally b4 God by His Blood/Death alone. Aint no such thing as He made Justification possible. And stop the insults, isnt that a violation ?

Let me try one more time. Let's look first at the word "possible".
In the context it can mean potential without accomplishment, which is how you are taking it, no matter what I say to the contrary. And I would hope that by now you would be familiar enough with my theology not to take it that way. Especially after I have made it clear that was not what I meant.

What "possible" means in my sentence, the one I made, therefore, the one who knows what I mean, is that the cross removed the judicial obstacle to justification.

I do not mean justification becomes possible if and when the sinner meets, the condition (faith). That is Arminian.

As I have said countless times of necessity due to the constant misunderstanding, it is through faith---and that not of us but is a gift of God, not a work lest anyone should boast, --- that Christ's work on the cross is applied to the elect, as that faith unites them to Christ. They are now in him. This is accomplished by God, in time, in the new birth (John 3). Not before they are born. Jesus accomplished the work necessary to remove the judicial obstacle to justification before they were born.