@Eleanor concerning Fullfilment Theology

[Eleanor]

Agreed. An aside: As I see it, "True Israel" includes not just the remnant, but all redeemed Gentiles also.

Agreed. Thanks.

I was thinking in terms of Ro 9:6.

 

[makesends]

makesends said:
Agreed. An aside: As I see it, "True Israel" includes not just the remnant, but all redeemed Gentiles also.

Agreed. Thanks.

I was thinking in terms of Ro 9:6.

I don't know if you heard me reference this before, but I have heard of the notion (theory?) that in the end, we will see that every person redeemed is actually descended from Abraham, though perhaps very distantly. Some suppose us even descended from Jacob (Israel). I don't know if there is any way to know, or any use of supposing such a thing, but it is kind of a poetic thought.

 

[Eleanor]

makesends said:
Agreed. An aside: As I see it, "True Israel" includes not just the remnant, but all redeemed Gentiles also.

I don't know if you heard me reference this before, but I have heard of the notion (theory?) that in the end, we will see that every person redeemed is actually descended from Abraham, though perhaps very distantly. Some suppose us even descended from Jacob (Israel). I don't know if there is any way to know, or any use of supposing such a thing, but it is kind of a poetic thought.

Well, you have the lines of Ishmael and Esau descending from Abraham, but they were not true Israel.

Where do the believing Africans fit in?

 

[makesends]

How would believing Gentiles in the day of the apostles fit into that?

Agreed. Or in the Old Testament times!

I'm not sure why they would think so, but maybe it is just poetic wish-think.

 

[Eleanor]

Agreed. Or in the Old Testament times!

I'm not sure why they would think so, but maybe it is just poetic wish-think.

It has the flavor of dispensational Biblically-unwarranted scenario building.

 

[makesends]

It has the flavor of dispensational Biblically unwarranted scenario building.

True. I hadn't thought of that!

 

[brightfame52]

crazycalv

Do note, sister, that the church did not exist at this point and Israel means Israel...There is no "Oh...and remember, Ezekiel, this is the church."

Sure it existed, its the seed of Abraham. Church just means called out ones. The seed of Abraham existed in the OT and NT

Ps 105:6

O ye seed of Abraham his servant, ye children of Jacob his chosen.

Isa 41:8

But thou, Israel, art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend.

Abraham was called out Heb 11:8

8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

The Church is the Seed of Abraham Gal 3:29

29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Heirs here are the same as Heirs in Heb 11:8-9

8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:

 

[brightfame52]

Agreed. An aside: As I see it, "True Israel" includes not just the remnant, but all redeemed Gentiles also.

Correct, The Israel of God manifested in NC era is comprised of a remnant of grace election from among the jews and a remnant of grace election from among the gentiles Acts 15:14-18

14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.

15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,

16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:

17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

Thats the Mystery, that Israel is the Church comprised of Abrahams spiritual seed from among the nations

 

[CrazyCalvinistUncle]

crazycalv



Sure it existed, its the seed of Abraham. Church just means called out ones. The seed of Abraham existed in the OT and NT

No...it didn't. I'm aware of what "called out means" and the word for it and the study of it. And no amount tap dancing is going to fit that square peg into the round hole. The church came into being at Pentecost.

 

[Arial]

A curse and a promise given to the deceiver in the Garden concerning the seed of the woman. "You will bruise His heel, but He will crush your head."

This was not spoken of concerning Israel alone but all mankind. It is the announcement to creation of the promise of redemption.

Two promises given to Abraham concerning his seed. One the promise of land and God as their God as opposed to the pagan gods that would surround them. The second promise one given to the world, that through Abraham's seed redemption through faith would come.

Both were covenants made by God. The first a land grant covenant contingent upon their keeping the laws (stipulations) within the covenant agreement. Which could be summed up in "You shall have no other god's before me" for it was the violation of that commandment more than any other violations that caused them to be scattered. So that covenant was a covenant of works.

The second was a covenant of promise. Salvation unto eternal life through faith alone, that faith being place in the Seed of Abraham that would come, the seed of the woman who was promised to crush the serpent's head. This Seed is true Israel---faithful Israel.

The covenant of promise ran right along with the covenant of works----the covenant of works serving to point to this Seed and to teach us how desperately we need Him. The covenant of promise never left, it was always active and moving towards its fulfillment, even though all along the way the serpent attempted to destroy the Seed bearer, the one male that carried that seed in his loins, Israelites all. Jacob, Judah, Boaz, Jesse, David. The entire line of the Seed bearer is given in the gospels.

Those joined to Christ through faith, Jew or Gentile, are of true Israel, faithful Israel, the people of God. And Jesus is the promised eternal King who sits on the throne of David. He isn't becoming a King. He is King now.

 

[Eleanor]

No...it didn't. I'm aware of what "called out means" and the word for it and the study of it. And no amount tap dancing is going to fit that square peg into the round hole. The church came into being at Pentecost.

And then there is Ac 7:38, where the ekklesia is the assembly in the desert, as well as Ro 11:16-23, where

the trunk of the one olive tree is Christ (as he is the vine), its branches are the people of God, its roots are the firstfruits, the holy patriarchs of the OT (Ro 11:16-17), making it the one people of God, of both OT and NT saints (Heb 11:40, 12;22-23), the church, going all the way back to Abraham, and into which it is the destiny of Israel to be grafted back, if (not "when) they do not persist in unbelief (Ro 11:23).

Ro 11:23 is unassailable on this: "if (not "when") they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted back in again."

Grafted back into what? The one olive tree.

What is the one olive tree?
The dough made from the firstfruits of the harvest, wherein part of the dough was offered to the Lord, consecrating the whole batch of dough and making it holy (Ro 11:16).

What is the batch of dough?
The one olive tree--the people of God (branches), where its firstfruits are the holy patriarchs who, like the batch of dough from the firstfruits of the harvest was holy--is likewise holy because its roots (the patriarchs, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob) are holy (Ro 11:16), and from which roots its trunk, Christ, proceeds.

So what has been broken off the one olive tree and what has been grafted in to the one olive tree, which is the one people of God whose roots are Abraham, Isaac and Jacob?
Unbelieving Jews have been cut off from the one people of God, and believing Gentiles (church) have been grafted in to the one people of God.
So now, since the death of Christ, the one olive tree of God's people is all who believe in Christ; i.e., the church, going all the way back to Abraham.

So the shemata of the holy one olive tree presented in Ro 11 is the
holy root = patriarchs,
[holy trunk = Christ, which proceeds from the root] and
holy branches = people of God in the trunk, Christ, as they are in the vine, Christ.

Therefore, it is God's people in the NT which are the one olive tree going all the way back to Abraham, the church, of both OT and NT saints (Heb 11:40, 2:2-23), into which Israel will be grafted back if (not "when") they do not persist in unbelief (Ro 11:23).

 

[brightfame52]

No...it didn't. I'm aware of what "called out means" and the word for it and the study of it. And no amount tap dancing is going to fit that square peg into the round hole. The church came into being at Pentecost.

Yes it did. The Church is the salled out ones, the seed of Abraham. Did the seed of Abraham exist in the OT ? Hint Ps 105:6

O ye seed of Abraham his servant, ye children of Jacob his chosen.

Isa 41:8

But thou, Israel, art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend.

The seed of Abraham belongs to Christ, the Head of the Church Gal 3:29

29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Did the OT believers like Abraham, David belong to Christ ? He has always been the Head of His Body the Church Heb 13:8

8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

 

[brightfame52]

ccu

The church came into being at Pentecost.

Wrong, the Church is and has always been that remnant according to the election of grace, now its formation had always been within the nation of israel, but as a remnant. This was the Church spoken of here Isa 1:9

Except the Lord of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah.

 

[CrazyCalvinistUncle]

Yes it did. The Church is the salled out ones, the seed of Abraham. Did the seed of Abraham exist in the OT ? Hint Ps 105:6

O ye seed of Abraham his servant, ye children of Jacob his chosen.

Isa 41:8

But thou, Israel, art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend.

The seed of Abraham belongs to Christ, the Head of the Church Gal 3:29

29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Did the OT believers like Abraham, David belong to Christ ? He has always been the Head of His Body the Church Heb 13:8

8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

 

[brightfame52]

Im good with a understanding of Abrahams seed, I have studied that subject many times over the past 4 decades. Abraham has a natural seed and a spiritual seed , did you know that ?

 

[Eleanor]

Im good with a understanding of Abrahams seed, I have studied that subject many times over the past 4 decades. Abraham has a natural seed and a spiritual seed , did you know that ?

Yes, he has three seeds:
1) descendants of Ishmael and Esau,
2) descendants of Isaac,
3) those in Christ, who is the singular Seed to whom all the promises were made (Gal 3:16).

 

[TB2]

Thanks!

I know of no "Fulfillment" Theology. It is simply my own word for the content of what you call "Replacement" Theology, by which I am indicating that the church does not "replace" true Israel, the church is the true Israel.

True. Revelation is chock full of OT symbols and imagery about Israel that in Revelation is recast in terms of the Church as the "new Israel"

 

[Marilyn C]

I hadn't taken you for a dispensationalist. @Eleanor as far as I understand her is giving pretty much the standard Reformed (and Biblical) answer I saw as my first objection to the dispensationalism I was taught as a child —the Bible teaches that true Israel and the Church are one and the same thing: the Body of Christ. Not all who are of Israel are Israel. There has only ever been one Gospel.

What was the `good news` that Abel knew and became righteous?

 

[Marilyn C]

None of which impacts Ro 11:1-23, which you do not address.

Lotta' heat, no light.

The shemata of the holy one olive tree of Ro 11 is the
holy root = patriarchs,
[holy trunk = Christ, which proceeds from the root] and
holy branches = people of God in the trunk, Christ, as they are in the vine, Christ.

The `root` is holy, gives nourishment and supports. Only the Lord is able to do that NOT the patriarchs who were human and are long dead to support and nourish anyone.

And to suggest that the patriarchs support and give nourishment to Christ, is not scriptural.

 

[makesends]

What was the `good news` that Abel knew and became righteous?

I'm not sure what you are asking. I was half picking at @CrazyCalvinistUncle.

Are you trying to object to the notion of the Gospel always being the same from the beginning? Are you asking what was the Gospel which Abel heard and by which he had faith, resulting in righteousness?

I expect that he, like so many others, came to recognize his own depravity and inability, and understood that God himself had provided a way by grace, for Abel to be with God in the end. And while many on this forum seem to disagree with this, I think God regenerated him, but not Cain —at least, if he did regenerate Cain, it was after Cain killed Abel. I don't even need to go into the thing about the blood sacrifice, though that is indicative of the Gospel, too.