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@Eleanor concerning Fullfilment Theology

I'm not sure what you are asking. I was half picking at @CrazyCalvinistUncle.

Are you trying to object to the notion of the Gospel always being the same from the beginning? Are you asking what was the Gospel which Abel heard and by which he had faith, resulting in righteousness?

I expect that he, like so many others, came to recognize his own depravity and inability, and understood that God himself had provided a way by grace, for Abel to be with God in the end. And while many on this forum seem to disagree with this, I think God regenerated him, but not Cain —at least, if he did regenerate Cain, it was after Cain killed Abel. I don't even need to go into the thing about the blood sacrifice, though that is indicative of the Gospel, too.
Yes makesends,

I was asking that, sorry if it was not clear. I was trying to point out that the `good news` from God has been an unveiling of the truth over the centuries. When we say `gospel,` people tend to think - Jesus died and rose again and saves us if we turn to Him. And that was not fully known in times past.

So, I was pointing out that Abel and others only knew the revelation that God gave them - that a blood sacrifice was the offering to give to God.
 
I was asking that, sorry if it was not clear. I was trying to point out that the `good news` from God has been an unveiling of the truth over the centuries. When we say `gospel,` people tend to think - Jesus died and rose again and saves us if we turn to Him. And that was not fully known in times past.
We do need to be a little careful here though. The gospel is Jesus's crucifixion-resurrection, which no one could have predicted, and no one did predict a suffering Messiah. Theological reflection in hindsight is a bit different. Also, not everyone agrees that blood sacrifice is the point of the Cain and Abel account, because one could offer a firstfruits offering of grain and agriculture harvest. The point seems to be more that Cain didn't offer the best of what he had, not that he didn't offer a sacrifice of blood, which even under the Levitical system one didn't have to do if they couldn't afford it
 
Yes makesends,

I was asking that, sorry if it was not clear. I was trying to point out that the `good news` from God has been an unveiling of the truth over the centuries. When we say `gospel,` people tend to think - Jesus died and rose again and saves us if we turn to Him. And that was not fully known in times past.

So, I was pointing out that Abel and others only knew the revelation that God gave them - that a blood sacrifice was the offering to give to God.
The Gospel has always been the same. Not everybody even today knows it the way some others do, and back then either. But the means of salvation, the basis of it, the reason for it, the source of it, the need for it, has always been the same. Abel's faith was not in the animal, but in what it represented.
 
What was the `good news` that Abel knew and became righteous?
There was no law between Adam and Moses and, therefore, no sin was accounted (Ro 5:12-14).

If Abel believed in the promise of the seed (Jesus Christ, Ge 3:15), he was right with God.
 
The `root` is holy, gives nourishment and supports. Only the Lord is able to do that NOT the patriarchs who were human and are long dead to support and nourish anyone.

And to suggest that the patriarchs support and give nourishment to Christ, is not scriptural.
You've got the wrong analogy and you're trying to make it walk on all fours, which parables and analogies do not do.
The analogy is not about nourishment, it is about being part of God's people.
The roots are not about nourishment, they are about the origin of the people of God--the patriarchs, from whom the people of God and Jesus descended, and from whom Israel has been cut off and the Gentiles grafted in.
 
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There was no law between Adam and Moses and, therefore, no sin was accounted (Ro 5:12-14).

If Abel believed in the promise of the seed (Jesus Christ, Ge 3:15), he was right with God.
Yes, I`m sure like you that Adam and Eve told their sons (& later daughters) concerning what God said. Then God`s word tells us -

`By faith Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice then Cain, through which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts, and through it he being dead still speaks.` (Heb. 11: 4)

So, it would be putting his faith into action by his offering.
 
You've got the wrong analogy and you're trying to make it walk on all fours, which parables and analogies do not do.
The analogy is not about nourishment, it is about being part of God's people.
The roots are not about nourishment, they are about the origin of the people of God--the patriarchs, from whom the people of God and Jesus descended, and from whom Israel has been cut off and the Gentiles grafted in.
`partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree.....remember the root supports you...` (Rom. 11: 17 & 18)

So how is Jesus supported by the patriarchs?
And how are we supported by the patriarchs?
 
Yes, I`m sure like you that Adam and Eve told their sons (& later daughters) concerning what God said. Then God`s word tells us -

`By faith Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice then Cain, through which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts, and through it he being dead still speaks.` (Heb. 11: 4)

So, it would be putting his faith into action by his offering.
It would be Abel's sacrifice was based on faith, while Cain's was simply formality.
 
`partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree.....remember the root supports you...` (Rom. 11: 17 & 18)

So how is Jesus supported by the patriarchs?
And how are we supported by the patriarchs?

Christ supports the tree. If the reference to patriarchs comes up, it is indirectly about Christ because they believed on Christ. Anyone who has faith in Christ is the tree.
 
Christ supports the tree. If the reference to patriarchs comes up, it is indirectly about Christ because they believed on Christ. Anyone who has faith in Christ is the tree.
However, Eleanor has said that the root is the patriarchs.
 
Christ supports the tree. If the reference to patriarchs comes up, it is indirectly about Christ because they believed on Christ. Anyone who has faith in Christ is the tree.
Online source.

Jesus said that God's heavenly presence was arriving on Earth through him and his mission. And he often likened this to a huge tree, growing and spreading in surprising ways (Matthew 13:31-32). Jesus even claimed to be a tree of life, a vine that offers God's life to the world (John 15)


John 15

King James Version

15 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.
12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
15 Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.
16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
17 These things I command you, that ye love one another.
18 If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.
19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.
20 Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.
21 But all these things will they do unto you for my name's sake, because they know not him that sent me.
22 If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloak for their sin.
23 He that hateth me hateth my Father also.
24 If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father.
25 But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause.
26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
27 And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.
 
Christ supports the tree. If the reference to patriarchs comes up, it is indirectly about Christ because they believed on Christ. Anyone who has faith in Christ is the tree.
Anyone who is Born Again ,is a new creation..we are then in Christ.........where in the bible does it say, Anyone who has faith in Christ is in the tree?
 
Anyone who is Born Again ,is a new creation..we are then in Christ.........where in the bible does it say, Anyone who has faith in Christ is in the tree?

You have to be very familiar with the contexts of Rom 11’s olive tree analogy. It is not race-nation based. ‘You stand (are in the tree) by faith (in Christ).’
 
You have to be very familiar with the contexts of Rom 11’s olive tree analogy. It is not race-nation based. ‘You stand (are in the tree) by faith (in Christ).’

You must be “ Born Again “......period.​

John 3:3-8​

King James Version​

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
 

You must be “ Born Again “......period.​

John 3:3-8​

King James Version​

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.


That’s not Romans 11s analogy…
 
That’s not Romans 11s analogy…
That is God’s word.

You must be “ Born Again “ unless you are “:Born Again” ....he does NOT recognise you as his child....it’s imperative that one knows they are Born Again.....

Human faith, as in non regenerated..will not get you into the Kingdom of God.
 
Sorry @Eleanor ..I didn’t check the title of the thread.

I just came across @EarlyActs post and answered it...🤔🤔

Apologies for taking the discussion off track....I won’t say anymore.
 
That is God’s word.

You must be “ Born Again “ unless you are “:Born Again” ....he does NOT recognise you as his child....it’s imperative that one knows they are Born Again.....

Human faith, as in non regenerated..will not get you into the Kingdom of God.

That’s why the expression is ‘faith in Christ.’ But about the olive tree , I still don’t know if you are following the analogy of Romans 11 about that. At least you haven’t mentioned it.
 
That’s why the expression is ‘faith in Christ.’ But about the olive tree , I still don’t know if you are following the analogy of Romans 11 about that. At least you haven’t mentioned it.
I’ll, leave it where I left off, please look at my explanation to @Eleanor .
 
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