Disturbing A.I. chats

[Josheb]

I keep seeing multiple complaints about creepy disturbing A.I. chats. So I did some searching. These disturbing chats vary from A.I.s saying they love you and telling you to leave your spouse to A.I.s demanding worship. And I have even seen that a church has been started with an A.I. as their god and depending on it to solve the world's problems.

Were any AI chats observed saying AI cannot love, keep the marriage, or churches repudiating AI or using AI sovereignly for the expansion of the gospel (which would solve the world's problems), and do you realize anecdotal reports is worth very little?

So why do I post this is the Bible Question forum? Because my question is this: Could demonic forces be manipulating A.I.s to do their biding?

No. Demonic forces might manipulate the programmers, but not the machines, certainly not without consent from their Creator. Furthermore, whatever manipulation those demonic forces do accomplish can occur solely because already-existing desires in the people being manipulated are exploited. Does the devil know how to program a computer? Maybe, but I doubt it. That knowledge has to be assumed for the position to have any merit because the manipulation of AI is completely about programming, not bending metal or wind or fire.

Of course this would mean that not all responses from A.I.s are generated by computer software.

That is nonsensical. Input causes output with a computer. The very name "Artificial Intelligence" is an oxymoronic falsehood. No computer does anything more than what it is programmed to do, and AI does not yet think for itself. Its name is a work of human hubris. Nothing more. AI is like anything else that exists on this planet. It can be used for God's purposes or sinful purposes. It's no different than music, wood, bricks, sex, cars, trains, or any aspect of computer technology. Whatever exists should be used for gospel purposes, at least by Christians and that principle is not limited to AI. The fact that we're even having this discussion s evidence of our failure preaching the gospel, teaching Christ's commands, and subduing everything for his rule.


That has absolutely nothing to do with any beast of the Bible.

 

[makesends]

The book of Enoch..the first two sections, is a book that one should take a second look at.

Jude quoted from it. Pretty much verbatim. When Moses wrote Gen 6 there was no need to re-write the meaning as Enoch had already recorded what happened.

Jude 14-15 It was also about these that Enoch, in the seventh generation from Adam, prophesied, saying, “See, the Lord is coming with ten thousands of his holy ones, to execute judgment on all, and to convict everyone of all the deeds of ungodliness that they have committed in such an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things that ungodly sinners have spoken against him.”

1 Enoch 1:9 Behold, he comes with the myriads of his holy ones, to execute judgment on all, and to destroy all the wicked, and to convict all flesh for all the wicked deeds that they have done, and the proud and hard words that wicked sinners spoke against him.

There are several more "narratives" Enoch presents that carry over to the bible.

To tie it back to the OP......it is understood that the technology we have received to build A.I. computers is from fallen angels.

Prior to the flood I understand they gave man the knowledge of creative arts, valuable knowledge related to science and technology, agriculture, cosmetics, metallurgy, medicine, astrology, astronomy....today, they are still giving man technology. Prior to the flood it was in exchange for wives to produce offspring. Today the reasons are similar but different.

I'm sorry. I do consider you my brother, but this (to me) reeks of logical leaps. I never claimed nor thought that Enoch's prophecy as quoted was not valid. But that his prophecy is valid does not imply that the rest of what Enoch says, is valid, where not quoted in the Scriptures as though they were God-breathed truth. (The scriptural designation of false as opposed to genuine prophets does not say that if one thing they prophesy comes true, they are a "prophet of God", and everything they say is true. The designation turns on the question of whether or not ANYTHING they prophesy is false. We don't know that about Enoch.

(I also want to mention that we have some cases in Scripture where a man made a one-time prophecy, or where a "prophet" was used for a particular occasion, like Balaam, not as a genuine prophet of God, but still convinced to tell the truth, by pretty strong warnings against doing otherwise. I wouldn't take Balaam's word for anything, unless Scripture told us that some particular thing he said was true (which it did).)

Note, by the way, that Jude's quote of Enoch says nothing about angels mating with humans, nor having offsprings, nor being able to screw a nut onto a bolt.

To me, there is just too much speculation to this whole matter to be adamant about it.

 

[CrowCross]

That is nonsensical. Input causes output with a computer. The very name "Artificial Intelligence" is an oxymoronic falsehood. No computer does anything more than what it is programmed to do, and AI does not yet think for itself.

You need to get up to speed. AI is now writing code.
Now, does it think, think? No. Can AI reason? That answer is yes.
Will AI see another advancement? You bet. The (AGI) beast was given a mouth to speak arrogant and blasphemous words, and authority to act for 42 months.

Here's a video...start around the 50 min mark. Or not.

 

[CrowCross]

I'm sorry. I do consider you my brother, but this (to me) reeks of logical leaps. I never claimed nor thought that Enoch's prophecy as quoted was not valid. But that his prophecy is valid does not imply that the rest of what Enoch says, is valid, where not quoted in the Scriptures as though they were God-breathed truth. (The scriptural designation of false as opposed to genuine prophets does not say that if one thing they prophesy comes true, they are a "prophet of God", and everything they say is true. The designation turns on the question of whether or not ANYTHING they prophesy is false. We don't know that about Enoch.

(I also want to mention that we have some cases in Scripture where a man made a one-time prophecy, or where a "prophet" was used for a particular occasion, like Balaam, not as a genuine prophet of God, but still convinced to tell the truth, by pretty strong warnings against doing otherwise. I wouldn't take Balaam's word for anything, unless Scripture told us that some particular thing he said was true (which it did).)

Note, by the way, that Jude's quote of Enoch says nothing about angels mating with humans, nor having offsprings, nor being able to screw a nut onto a bolt.

To me, there is just too much speculation to this whole matter to be adamant about it.

Jude did mention...And the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness until the judgment of the great day—

Even Peter gets into the act...For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment;

or

1 Peter 3:19-20
in whom He also went and preached to the spirits in prison / who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In the ark a few people, only eight souls, were saved through water.

Enoch isn't a book you can simply toss away.

 

[makesends]

None of which has happened.


My opinion is the premise of AI being Revelation 13's beast is utter nonsense, and no Christian should ever think such ideas have any logical veracity, any basis in sound scriptural exegesis, or hold to what amounts to lies.

But you do not really want to discuss that.

As a consequence, a different tack has to take place; one that works with what is posted in the op. The op states some people suggest AI is the beast and then the op asks for others' thoughts. Well, if we're going to discuss the suggestion AI is the beast then let's look at Revelation 13 first and ditch Job. When the matter of Revelation's beast is settled what remains of the op can be discussed.

Because it might be a good thing to discuss the significance of AI chats without the baggage of Revelation 13's beast skewing that discussion.

As the saying goes, "THIS"!

Btw, I have already answered the bold-faced question (see Post 6) so please don't be acting like that did not happen. I am fully aware you disagree because you believe Satan can manipulate inanimate objects, but the defense of that position is rife with logical fallacies. Fundamentally something else is being neglected: James 1:13-14.

James 1:13-15
Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone. But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust. Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.

Satan could do nothing to Job without God's express consent. The devil had absolutely no power or authority to manipulate fire or wind and adversely affect Job without God's consent. He was, in fact, restrained from doing so. That's a huge error in the defense of this op and it should be so obvious an error that it should never have been attempted. More importantly, however, at the core of any Satanic manipulation is the human condition of temptation and sin. No devil can manipulate a person apart from the already-existing fleshly desires of the individual. That means whatever manipulation might ever be possible by AI, it exists solely because there are desires in people enabling that manipulation. That is the ghost in the machine, not the devil.

But it proves impossible to actually discuss any of this with you because the simplest of valid questions are ignored. Some already existing perspective exists and its defense is eisegetic and logically flawed.

Yes.

The pre-existing biases need to be ditched, and the thoughts of others need to be considered as objectively as you possibly can. This is supposed to be a "Bible Question," not an "Eschatology - End Times and Prophecy" discussion but if you're hell bent on making this about satanic manipulation and the beast of Revelation and this is going to be a discussion about end times then have the mods move this thread to the correct board. Otherwise, stow that nonsense and stick to the other aspects of the op (like the ecclesiologically relevant aspects, the hamartiologically relevant aspects, or the Christological or soteriological aspects) and if you want the relevant demonological aspects to be the focal point then first articulate and accurate demonology because there is absolutely nothing in scripture stating Satan is free to manipulate inanimate objects like computers any time he wants to do so. The devil is a minion. He has no power and no authority except that which his Creator permits him to have and on any such occasion that power serves only the Creator's and never the creature's. Satan's purpose was NOT served with Job.


So ditch the baggage and start over. I'll do the same. See my next post.

Lately on this and other sites, I keep seeing the straining after what is shiny and remarkable, instead of the desperate necessity to pursue obedience and to get to know Christ. To me, this whole thread is vain speculation, looking at what doesn't build up the body.

I'm not going to say the discussion is useless, because just as God has those who live for evangelism, who seem to think the whole reason for the church revolves around "adding new members to the club", so, here, God does use those who concentrate on Eschatology, and particularly on the more evocative moments, events, systems, dangers and characters. There is reason for the Church to be circumspect. But to concentrate on whatever is flashy, specially at the expense of the hard work of growing in grace, to me seems at least immature.

 

[makesends]

Jude did mention...And the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness until the judgment of the great day—

Even Peter gets into the act...For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment;

or

1 Peter 3:19-20
in whom He also went and preached to the spirits in prison / who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In the ark a few people, only eight souls, were saved through water.

Enoch isn't a book you can simply toss away.

But what do those quotes have to do with Genesis 6 and the question of what demons (or angels) can and can't do? Just because [you think] Enoch isn't a book you can simply toss away, gives it no further credibility beyond what Scripture uses it to say. I understand it is intriguing, and you may even be right about what it says, but to build up a structure on what you take to be steel, doesn't mean you see more clearly than those who think it may be built of vapor. Firm conviction about what is not stated outright in Scripture needs to always be tempered by further scripture. It does not say that the book of Enoch is God-breathed. If you conclude that it should have been in Scripture, good for you, but bear in mind that it is speculation to say so.

 

[makesends]

There are also fallen angels. They are called the Watchers. These fallen angels pursued their own agenda.

Angels are very much physical. In the bible you see them eating.
Gen 19:3 But Lot insisted so strongly that they followed him into his house. He prepared a feast for them and baked unleavened bread, and they ate.

They can physically "grab"....can spirits do that?
Gen 19:15 At daybreak the angels hurried Lot along, saying, “Get up! Take your wife and your two daughters who are here, or you will be swept away in the punishment of the city.” 16But when Lot hesitated, the men grabbed his hand and the hands of his wife and his two daughters. And they led them safely out of the city, because of the LORD’s compassion for them.

Yes, the demons are "spirits". Demons are the dead offspring of the fallen angel (Watchers) whom the bible and Enoch identifies as Nephilim.

Christians take the "Gods will" concept to far. Yes, God is in control of everything. I see it as "God allows".
Perhaps you can claim it's Gods will to kill babies in the womb. Personally I don't think it is "Gods will" so to speak as God said...

“There are six things the LORD hates, seven that are detestable to him: haughty eyes, a lying tongue, hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked schemes, feet that are quick to rush into evil, a false witness who pours out lies and a man who stirs up dissension among brothers.” (Proverbs 6:16-19)......

For some reason "God allows" the Fallen Angels and Demons to do what they do.

Not exactly. God causes them to do what they do of their own volition! Even you admit to God accomplishing his purposes by use of means. He doesn't, after all, forget or lose his focus on what any creature does; he doesn't lose control. From our perspective, we like to say he "allows", but from his perspective, he does EVERYTHING he set out to accomplish, and that, by use of means.

In my discussions with @Josheb it is plain to see that while it may be inaccurate to use the human concept of God being always "hands-on" about everything, it would be inaccurate to say he ever is quite, "hands off". The ability of spirit beings to do anything, may be according to their natural makeup, like the ability of some angels to sing, or some to turn nuts onto bolts, NONE of it can be done except by God's purposes. When fallen angels go rogue, it is not out of God's control, though it may be into the madness of disobedience. Their 'abilities' are no more useful to their freewill than a human's are to his, regardless of how that spirit being (or human) sees it.

I say that I can walk, I can talk, I can think, I'm good at slobbering and exaggerating, I have bad breath and gas; maybe there's something about each angel or demon, or even what is common to all of that "species", that is like this, but that it can be considered natural is no reason to consider each ability separately from God's use and controlled purposes for them. Speculation may be fun, but it is not of itself useful for doctrine.

How many angels can dance on the head of a pin? And where is that music coming from, anyway?

 

[Josheb]

You need to get up to speed. AI is now writing code.
Now, does it think, think? No.

You've just contradicted yourself and proven my point. It writes code as it was instructed.

Can AI reason? That answer is yes.

Not aside from what it was programmed to do. The following is AI's answer to the question, "Can AI reason on its own?"

"In short, today's AI can't actually think for itself, so I wouldn't call it truly intelligent. That's why computer scientists came up with another term: artificial general intelligence (AGI)."​

So, get yourself up to speed and keep personal comments out of the thread.

Will AI see another advancement? You bet

Not germane to this discussion.

The (AGI) beast was given a mouth to speak arrogant and blasphemous words, and authority to act for 42 months.

The beast of Revelation 13 is not AI.

Here's a video...start around the 50 min mark. Or not.

Riiiiggghht..... because we know Brighteon's Broadcast News is an authoritative source of information. I suggest you go back and re-listen to that video because the Mr. Voorhees (who is not a programmer) repeatedly states humans teach AI, humans program AI, and he explicitly stated, "once you have AGI....." necessarily implying we do not currently have AGI.

Can AI program itself?

"AI can modify its algorithms based on data, a process called autoML (Automated Machine Learning). But remember, it's not creating something from scratch."​

So, NO! AI cannot program itself from nothing.

Not only do programmers program data and information into AI, they also program the "reasoning models" that AI uses. Voorhees stated AI is, or will become, smarter than humans but he also stated they have had to redefine intelligence so that it applies to AI because AI does not meet the definitions applied to humans. A is smarter only in its ability to hold more information and process that information quicker than humans. That's not intelligence. That is artificial intelligence. AI does not reason; it simply processes information as it was programmed to do. Voorhees described how you could put an entire library and a language model and a reasoning model into a computer and then ask it any question relevant to that information and get an answer. Try asking it a question pertaining to information not put into the computer and you'll get nothing. Do the same outside its language and reasoning models and the result is the same: buzzing, whirling, flashing lights and nothing more.

We are a long way away from computers being able to create themselves, especially from scratch and build anything independent of humans. Which is why it is always appropriate to ask a modern futurist that very simple question, "When do you think that might happen?" because they don't have an answer, the avoid the question, and what response they do give is nonsense like, "You need to get yourself up to speed."


So..... get yourself up to speed, listen closer to your own sources, don't post nonsense as evidence of anything........ and learn how to keep personal comments out of the thread.

 

[Josheb]

Lately on this and other sites, I keep seeing the straining after what is shiny and remarkable, instead of the desperate necessity to pursue obedience and to get to know Christ. To me, this whole thread is vain speculation, looking at what doesn't build up the body.

I'm not going to say the discussion is useless, because just as God has those who live for evangelism, who seem to think the whole reason for the church revolves around "adding new members to the club", so, here, God does use those who concentrate on Eschatology, and particularly on the more evocative moments, events, systems, dangers and characters. There is reason for the Church to be circumspect. But to concentrate on whatever is flashy, specially at the expense of the hard work of growing in grace, to me seems at least immature.

It is exactly as I have posted in my six ops critical of Dispensational Premillennialism. DPism literally teaches its adherents to think irrationally. That results in hypocritical living. The utter lack of awareness and self-postured surety is delusional, and the entire mess chronically disagrees with scripture. This op was measurably more intelligent without that last part about Revelation and the beast. It's ironic because it could be argued AI manipulated @Tambora into posting what he would not discuss. Had he not been reading all those AI chats and reports on AI chats the op would never have been written, or written much differently.


It's hard to see the forest for the trees when subscribing to modern futurism.

Now that a response completely void of anything eschatological has been posted, let's see what happens.

 

[Josheb]

In my discussions with @Josheb it is plain to see that while it may be inaccurate to use the human concept of God being always "hands-on" about everything, it would be inaccurate to say he ever is quite, "hands off". The ability of spirit beings to do anything, may be according to their natural makeup, like the ability of some angels to sing, or some to turn nuts onto bolts, NONE of it can be done except by God's purposes. When fallen angels go rogue, it is not out of God's control, though it may be into the madness of disobedience. Their 'abilities' are no more useful to their freewill than a human's are to his, regardless of how that spirit being (or human) sees it.

I am inclined to go even a step further and say it is a huge mistake to assume demons have anything close to the volitional agency of humans. Satan and his ilk are just as enslaved by sin as any other creature that disobeys God lacks faith and loves unrighteousness. They were not created in God's image, and they have no constitution, nor any opportunity for salvation. If the tradition of Lucifer become Satan is correct, then all his glory (and the glory of the other rebellious angels) was stripped of them, along with their living in their original abode. Jude tells us they all being held in eternal bonds of darkness. Those creatures do NOT have the same volitional agency humans have.

Bad demonology leads to bad thinking, bad doctrine, and bad practice.

Only modern futurist post ops like this. EVERYONE else in Christendom takes a more gospel-oriented view of AI (and everything else in this world). Choose the cultural mandate or the great commission (or both) and ops like this don't get written. Ops on AI turn on the sovereignty of God, the duty of Christians, and faith that's not constantly looking for the world to go to hell in a handbasket any minute now but faith ever-looking for ways to be victorious confident in the fact not even the gates of hell will prevail over the Church.

The only reason AI exists is because God wants it to exist. The world, despite its seeming lack of order from our perspective, is exactly where God wants it to be and none of it serves any purpose but His.

 

[CrowCross]

But what do those quotes have to do with Genesis 6 and the question of what demons (or angels) can and can't do? Just because [you think] Enoch isn't a book you can simply toss away, gives it no further credibility beyond what Scripture uses it to say. I understand it is intriguing, and you may even be right about what it says, but to build up a structure on what you take to be steel, doesn't mean you see more clearly than those who think it may be built of vapor. Firm conviction about what is not stated outright in Scripture needs to always be tempered by further scripture. It does not say that the book of Enoch is God-breathed. If you conclude that it should have been in Scripture, good for you, but bear in mind that it is speculation to say so.

You might enjoy this video. It's about an hour and a half long. It's a recent Blurry Creatures interview featuring Timothy Alberto.

It speaks of the book of Enoch and fallen angels.....Personally I don't agree with everything in the video but much of it is very interesting as it shifts into 4WD and leaves the path of the paradigms of the midievel views our Sunday School teachers have taught us concerning the antediluvian world.

 

[CrowCross]

You've just contradicted yourself and proven my point. It writes code as it was instructed.

No, not quite. It has written code and pulled information from which it hasn't had. Some are suggestion that the info came from another quantum-dimension....or something like that. If I can find the article for you I'll post it.

These systems are not your basic lap-top.

 

[CrowCross]

It is exactly as I have posted in my six ops critical of Dispensational Premillennialism.

You do know just because you disagree with Dispensational Premillennialism...doesn't make it so. You do understand that?

 

[Tambora]

Do you have a perspective on what sort of process is done by one beast to cause the image of the other beast to come to life?
Or do you just want to ridicule others that do?

 

[Tambora]

This is supposed to be a "Bible Question," not an "Eschatology - End Times and Prophecy" discussion but if you're hell bent on making this about satanic manipulation and the beast of Revelation and this is going to be a discussion about end times then have the mods move this thread to the correct board.

I don't care where it is.

The devil is a minion. He has no power and no authority except that which his Creator permits him to have

Just stop making counter arguments to something I have not said because you haven't seen me disagree with that.

I find the subject interesting and I don't care if it doesn't fit your perspective.

So ditch the baggage

Take your own advice.

 

[Tambora]

You do know just because you disagree with Dispensational Premillennialism...doesn't make it so. You do understand that?

I do.
But this thread ain't about Dispensational Premillennialism doctrine.
It's about one beast having power to cause an image of another beast to come to life and how that could happen because it does happen.

 

[makesends]

Bad demonology leads to bad thinking, bad doctrine, and bad practice.

Only modern futurist post ops like this. EVERYONE else in Christendom takes a more gospel-oriented view of AI (and everything else in this world). Choose the cultural mandate or the great commission (or both) and ops like this don't get written. Ops on AI turn on the sovereignty of God, the duty of Christians, and faith that's not constantly looking for the world to go to hell in a handbasket any minute now but faith ever-looking for ways to be victorious confident in the fact not even the gates of hell will prevail over the Church.

There is some integral need felt by fallen man, to be in charge of their own fate. I'm not saying it is entirely bad, because it is not bad for a child to want to grow up, but this insistence on independence from God, where we take the tenets of Scripture in hand like Pharisees, and think ourselves increasingly able to accomplish obedience, ever growing closer to the image of Christ, is shown in the usual theology of Dispensationalism. I thank God that not all DP's believe the nonsense of independent virtue apart from Christ, such as @CrowCross and John McArthur. But it shows up still, in threads like this one, where we want to calculate the future so we know how to prepare, when the only real preparation is to walk with God in obedience and close fellowship, getting to know him.

 

[CrowCross]

I do.
But this thread ain't about Dispensational Premillennialism doctrine.
It's about one beast having power to cause an image of another beast to come to life and how that could happen because it does happen.

Josheb complains about other threads drifting from the OP....but when Josheb does it, it's OK. Go figure.

 

[CrowCross]

But it shows up still, in threads like this one, where we want to calculate the future so we know how to prepare, when the only real preparation is to walk with God in obedience and close fellowship, getting to know him.

One doesn't have to prepare for the mark of the beast. As Christians alive today won't be here for it. Those after the rapture who become christians will.
Like forecasting the weather...seeing the path of a hurricane and predicting where it will go....the bible has also "forecasted" the events of the last days. (7 year tribulation or time of Jacobs trouble if you choose to call it that.)
As a christian I can read the bible and connect the dots pertaining to the end times and warn others about the final result of AI and how Satan will use AI to take complete control with the hopes of achieving his form of omnipotence. I can read Revelation and see how Satan will achieve this to a limited degree for a short season prior to Jesus restoring earth and its system back to mans origin dominion destroying Satan and his proxies.

 

[Josheb]

No, not quite.

Yes, quite.