Disturbing A.I. chats

[CrowCross]

In this particular case it would not be the demonic forces that build the image, it would be the earthlings.

I agree. The "earthlings" are building the system as we speak.

Rev 13​

(14) And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.​

(15) And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.​

So, man builds the image and a beast (that receives power from the dragon) gives it life.
"Life" being the same word used for "spirit", so one could possibly say a beast gives the image a spirit.
The question would be what sort of spirit/life?

It could be when the image becomes sentient or achieves singularity.

Strongs says....2. the spirit, i. e. the vital principle by which the body is animated.

 

[Josheb]

So. . .you agree?

Yes, I agree with @makesends that an angel could screw a nut onto a bolt only if God purposed the angel to do so and to answer the question asked with a "Yes," or a "No," would be misleading. What is it about the 180 "thumbs ups [y]" is not clear?







* Hold you cursor over the thumbs up icon . It says "y" in the parenthesis. Now hold your cursor over the thumbs down icon . That icon says "n" in its parenthesis. "y" for yes; and "n" for no.
.

 

[Tambora]

Yes, but it is the beast that makes fire come down from heaven, not the devil. The earlier posts were wrong to attribute the fire to the devil.

My post attributed to the fire coming down from heaven was from the book of Job where it killed Job's sheep flock and servants.
Same with the wind storm that killed Job's children by collapsing the house they were in.
It's OK by me if you don't want to think it was Satan that did those things to Job.

After my questions are answer I will do so

It's OK by me If you wish to skip giving an opinion.

 

[Josheb]

My post attributed to the fire coming down from heaven was from the book of Job where it killed Job's sheep flock and servants. Same with the wind storm that killed Job's children by collapsing the house they were in.

Neither of which is related to the beast's bring fire down from heaven. The devil did not use AI with Job. Thinking Job is applicable creates both a categorical error and a false equivalence. Out of deference to you those errors were ignored and what some say about AI was treated as a given. If A.I. is the image of the beast, as some have suggested...... then certain things must subsequently occur. Hence my inquiries.

It's OK by me if you don't want to think it was Satan that did those things to Job.

It's okay with me if you answer the questions asked when as and don't delay or otherwise obfuscate but, instead, move the conversation forward.

It's OK by me If you wish to skip giving an opinion.

It's okay with me if you answer the questions asked when as and don't delay or otherwise obfuscate but, instead, move the conversation forward.

Do you understand the text of Revelation 13 to state the AI beast will cause everyone to be given a mark that somehow regulates some kind of commerce?

If so, when do you think that will occur?


Please be as specific as you feel comfortable being when answering the questions asked without further delay or obfuscation . If the answer to those questions is "No," then please elaborate and explain why not.

 

[Tambora]

The "earthlings" are building the system as we speak.

Perhaps.
Or it could be some completely different thing.

It could be when the image becomes sentient or achieves singularity.

Perhaps.
I'm not sure why the image would need to have feelings.

Strongs says....2. the spirit, i. e. the vital principle by which the body is animated.

That would mean the image was a body, and that body was given spirit/life.
Do you think the image given life = the beast itself?

 

[Tambora]

Neither of which is related to the beast's bring fire down from heaven.

I didn't say the beast did it.
I used the example of a spirit being (ie. Satan in Job) manipulating things (fire & wind in Job) that are not living things in order to counter the argument that evil forces (ie. beings of the spirit realm) could ONLY manipulate living things.
Obviously spirit beings can manipulate things that are not living things.

The devil did not use AI with Job.

Good grief, man, I never said he did!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thinking Job is applicable creates both a categorical error and a false equivalence.

Job is applicable because it shows that spirit beings can manipulate things that are not living.

If A.I. is the image of the beast, as some have suggested...... then certain things must subsequently occur.

The topic is not about what happens afterward, the topic is: Do you have an opinion on how one beast gave the man-made image of the beast life?

Why do you keep skipping that question (which is the topic of the thread)?
You don't have to believe it might have been done by golem magic or by evil forces manipulating an A.I. robot.
Just give your opinion of how one beast gave the image of another beast life.

 

[CrowCross]

Perhaps.
Or it could be some completely different thing.

Could be. I think there is a good possibility Musk's starlink constellations could be part of the world wide communications required for the system.

Perhaps.
I'm not sure why the image would need to have feelings.

It feels enough to be calling on all to worship it.

That would mean the image was a body, and that body was given spirit/life.
Do you think the image given life = the beast itself?

Have you seen those robots running around? Jumping, dancing...Is it a form of transhumanism? Iron (machine) mixed with clay (human).

Right now all we can do is speculate.....and right now it doesn't take much imagnation.

 

[makesends]

You can start with Gen 6.

When one realizes the "sons of God" were fallen angels you can move on. If you can't go there, then there is no reason to discuss the issue...as we must open the book of Enoch.

I have no truck with the book of Enoch. And Genesis 6 is ambiguous. Whatever conclusions you have drawn assuming that for a basis, I have no particular respect for, and will not follow. As you said: No reason to discuss the issue, and your conclusions aren't substantive. I remind you that you have yet to prove Genesis goes the way you see it.

 

[makesends]

I was asking it in the sense of technology. That is do the, lets say, fallen angels have technology? Do they know how to build a quantum D-wave computer?
Prior to the flood I understand they gave man the knowledge of creative arts, valuable knowledge related to science and technology, agriculture, cosmetics, metallurgy, medicine, astrology, astronomy....

Tambora asked .....Could demonic forces be manipulating A.I.s to do their biding?​

I'm still going with yes.

Not that I can prove this, but I see no place in Scripture where the good angels ever pursue their own agenda, nor where they are endowed with certain material/physical characteristics (along the lines of our economy) all their own. They are, after all, spirits.

Likewise, the demonic horde, still just spirits, though they always pursue their own, or, at least, Lucifer's agenda, are able to do nothing but what God purposes concerning them, in his use of them.

So I don't think they can simply, on a whim, choose to screw a nut onto a bolt, but I have no doubt that they can do so --in fact, I insist that they WILL do so-- if that is God's will concerning them.

 

[makesends]

Could be. I think there is a good possibility Musk's starlink constellations could be part of the world wide communications required for the system.

It feels enough to be calling on all to worship it.

Have you seen those robots running around? Jumping, dancing...Is it a form of transhumanism? Iron (machine) mixed with clay (human).

Right now all we can do is speculate.....and right now it doesn't take much imagnation.

Have you seen "Weekend at Bernie's"?

 

[Tambora]

Right now all we can do is speculate.....and right now it doesn't take much imagnation.

Yep.
What bothers me a little bit is that the people living at the time of John's writing must have had some inclination as to how it could happen, otherwise the message would have meant nothing to them.
So I would assume they had some inkling of how an image could be brought to life, which leads me to believe the possibility that it was by some sort of supernatural type magic that they were aware of at the time.
I mean, if the magicians of Pharoah could turn a stick into a serpent, who knows what other types of strange hidden knowledge or occultic magic was used of ancient people.

There is also the theory of the dragon and the 2 beasts being an antitype of the triune God. (I think there is thread about that on this site that I will have to go look at and see what is said.)
The image of the beast comes alive after the beast had received a deadly wound.
Christ was said the be the image of God and He was made alive again, so there could be a correlation there to being the antitype of the triune God.
I have often considered the dragon and the 2 beasts to be non-human but can't confirm that.
But they sure do seem to be of a supernatural nature with supernatural abilities.

One's mind can go in circles over all the speculation, so we need to stay somewhat grounded and not take all the speculations too seriously because we don't really know how it happens.
But there is definitely something strange that happens and I see no harm of imagining scenarios of how it could happen.
So fire away and have some fun with anything that comes to mind!

 

[Tambora]

Have you seen "Weekend at Bernie's"?

That was hilarious!
Feel good to laugh.

 

[Eleanor]

Yes, I agree with @makesends that an angel could screw a nut onto a bolt only if God purposed the angel to do so and to answer the question asked with a "Yes," or a "No," would be misleading. What is it about the 180 "thumbs ups [y]" is not clear?

That was in jest regarding the overstatement. . .

 

[CrowCross]

I have no truck with the book of Enoch. And Genesis 6 is ambiguous. Whatever conclusions you have drawn assuming that for a basis, I have no particular respect for, and will not follow. As you said: No reason to discuss the issue, and your conclusions aren't substantive. I remind you that you have yet to prove Genesis goes the way you see it.

The book of Enoch..the first two sections, is a book that one should take a second look at.

Jude quoted from it. Pretty much verbatim. When Moses wrote Gen 6 there was no need to re-write the meaning as Enoch had already recorded what happened.

Jude 14-15 It was also about these that Enoch, in the seventh generation from Adam, prophesied, saying, “See, the Lord is coming with ten thousands of his holy ones, to execute judgment on all, and to convict everyone of all the deeds of ungodliness that they have committed in such an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things that ungodly sinners have spoken against him.”

1 Enoch 1:9 Behold, he comes with the myriads of his holy ones, to execute judgment on all, and to destroy all the wicked, and to convict all flesh for all the wicked deeds that they have done, and the proud and hard words that wicked sinners spoke against him.

There are several more "narratives" Enoch presents that carry over to the bible.

To tie it back to the OP......it is understood that the technology we have received to build A.I. computers is from fallen angels.

Prior to the flood I understand they gave man the knowledge of creative arts, valuable knowledge related to science and technology, agriculture, cosmetics, metallurgy, medicine, astrology, astronomy....today, they are still giving man technology. Prior to the flood it was in exchange for wives to produce offspring. Today the reasons are similar but different.

 

[CrowCross]

Not that I can prove this, but I see no place in Scripture where the good angels ever pursue their own agenda, nor where they are endowed with certain material/physical characteristics (along the lines of our economy) all their own. They are, after all, spirits.

There are also fallen angels. They are called the Watchers. These fallen angels pursued their own agenda.

Angels are very much physical. In the bible you see them eating.
Gen 19:3 But Lot insisted so strongly that they followed him into his house. He prepared a feast for them and baked unleavened bread, and they ate.

They can physically "grab"....can spirits do that?
Gen 19:15 At daybreak the angels hurried Lot along, saying, “Get up! Take your wife and your two daughters who are here, or you will be swept away in the punishment of the city.” 16But when Lot hesitated, the men grabbed his hand and the hands of his wife and his two daughters. And they led them safely out of the city, because of the LORD’s compassion for them.

Likewise, the demonic horde, still just spirits, though they always pursue their own, or, at least, Lucifer's agenda, are able to do nothing but what God purposes concerning them, in his use of them.

Yes, the demons are "spirits". Demons are the dead offspring of the fallen angel (Watchers) whom the bible and Enoch identifies as Nephilim.

So I don't think they can simply, on a whim, choose to screw a nut onto a bolt, but I have no doubt that they can do so --in fact, I insist that they WILL do so-- if that is God's will concerning them.

Christians take the "Gods will" concept to far. Yes, God is in control of everything. I see it as "God allows".
Perhaps you can claim it's Gods will to kill babies in the womb. Personally I don't think it is "Gods will" so to speak as God said...

“There are six things the LORD hates, seven that are detestable to him: haughty eyes, a lying tongue, hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked schemes, feet that are quick to rush into evil, a false witness who pours out lies and a man who stirs up dissension among brothers.” (Proverbs 6:16-19)......

For some reason "God allows" the Fallen Angels and Demons to do what they do.

 

[CrowCross]

Yep.
What bothers me a little bit is that the people living at the time of John's writing must have had some inclination as to how it could happen, otherwise the message would have meant nothing to them.

Or, it was given to them for us to read and understand at the end of the age.

Daniel 12:4 But you, Daniel, shut up the words and seal the book, until the time of the end. Many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase.”
I'm not saying Daniel sealed up the book of Revelation..but something pertaining to the end time was sealed. Currently people are running to and fro....and knowledge is certainly increasing.

So I would assume they had some inkling of how an image could be brought to life, which leads me to believe the possibility that it was by some sort of supernatural type magic that they were aware of at the time.
I mean, if the magicians of Pharoah could turn a stick into a serpent, who knows what other types of strange hidden knowledge or occultic magic was used of ancient people.

Perhaps. That is a good point and possibility. But, in our time we have the technology to make it happen.
This Rev 13 event is on a much, much larger scale than turning a staff into a snake.

There is also the theory of the dragon and the 2 beasts being an antitype of the triune God. (I think there is thread about that on this site that I will have to go look at and see what is said.)
The image of the beast comes alive after the beast had received a deadly wound.
Christ was said the be the image of God and He was made alive again, so there could be a correlation there to being the antitype of the triune God.
I have often considered the dragon and the 2 beasts to be non-human but can't confirm that.
But they sure do seem to be of a supernatural nature with supernatural abilities.

I would go more down the line that Satan is preparing a false trinity with a false resurrection imitating Jesus.

One's mind can go in circles over all the speculation, so we need to stay somewhat grounded and not take all the speculations too seriously because we don't really know how it happens.

I agree 100%.....Keep in mind what I have mentioned is "speculation"...but is currently achievable "speculation".

But there is definitely something strange that happens and I see no harm of imagining scenarios of how it could happen.
So fire away and have some fun with anything that comes to mind!

I will, but I also know there are many christians who won't touch these possibilities with a "39 and a half foot pole".

 

[CrowCross]

Have you seen "Weekend at Bernie's"?

Yes, but it's been a while.

 

[Josheb]

I didn't say the beast did it.

I know. Post #27 states, "I would think that if Satan can manipulate fire from the sky and the wind, I don't think a hunk of wires and metal would be a problem for him," and cites Revelation 13:15 to support that statement. The problem is Scripture states the beast did it. In other words, Post #27 is incorrect.

The correct response to that mistake is, "Opps! I made a mistake. Thank you for pointing out what scripture states. I will adjust my position according to the facts of scripture" but that has not happened. Instead, there's an attempt to shift the emphasis away from the blatant error by appealing to Job......

I used the example of a spirit being (ie. Satan in Job) manipulating things (fire & wind in Job) that are not living things in order to counter the argument that evil forces (ie. beings of the spirit realm) could ONLY manipulate living things.

Yes, I completely understand what you did but 1) you're moving the goalposts without being honest about the mistakes in Post 27 and 2) the appeal to Job is just as problematic because fire and wind are not computers, Job is not AI, and Job has absolutely nothing to do with the beast bringing fire down from heaven. In other words, logically speaking, scripture is being misused, false equivalences are being asserted, and it's all done in an effort to support something not actually found in scripture.

But rather than look these problems square on the defense of the errors persists.


Step back.

Take a look at the problems - the very real and op-relevant problems - contained in your own posts first. Start with the fact that it takes multiple posts to get you to directly answer the simplest of questions when asked.

 

[Josheb]

Obviously spirit beings can manipulate things that are not living things.

Not without God's consent.

Good grief, man, I never said he did!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Which means Job and Satan have nothing to do with what you've seen some suggest. Your frustration is not with me. If you stick the scriptures AND stick to the op then you and I will not have any problems, and you will not get frustrated.

• Revelation 13:15 explicitly states the beast brought down fire from heaven, not the devil. Post 27 is wrong. No excuses. No defense.
• Satan and Job have nothing to do with AI and the notion Satan can manipulate wind is a valid comparison with AI being the image of the beast is a false comparison. That's a fact. Stop defending the error.
• Given the statement in the opening post some suggest that an AI could be the image of the beast of Revelation 15:13 it is appropriate and necessary to examine the scriptural text to see if such a suggestion might be valid. Stop avoiding doing that.
• Attacking me personally is just dumb. It's ad hominemic. There is no "good grief" but your own and if you cannot handle a few very valid and op-relevant questions then take a break. Either way..... apologize and then get your act together. Put on your big boy panties and engage your own op.

Assuming for the moment there might possibly potentially, maybe, perhaps be some veracity to the idea AI could be the image of the beast (not the beast, the image of the beast) a few simple questions can get at the veracity of that suggestion. The first might be, "What comes after the beast?" I could not get an answer to that question, so I answered it myself in an effort to move the discussion forward in spite of the obfuscation. Scripture states the mark follows the arrival of the beast. In other words, if some AI chat is the image of the beast then the beast has already arrived and all we need do is watch for the mark to come. So, rather than assume that fact and move on without your participation, I asked you if that was what you read in Revelation, too. Again, not answer. Just more nonsense about Satan and the wind with Job. Why would someone cite Revelation 13:15, then ask for people's thoughts, and then ignore Revelation 13:15? not being able to get an answer to that question I answered it according to the statement of scripture and asked another very valid and very op-relevant question. Assuming the beast has arrived, and AI is the image of the beast that has been brought to life as is stipulated in Revelation 13..... when do you think that mark might happen?


Good grief man, are you genuinely interested in people's thoughts or not? I do not care what your answers are. I'll work with whatever is posted relevant to the op's statements about AI being the beast of Rev. 13:15..... but you do not look like you're really interested in others' thoughts.

Job is applicable because it shows that spirit beings can manipulate things that are not living.

And when a correct comparison between Job and the beast is made, then I will entertain it but so far that is a false equivalence.

 

[Josheb]

The topic is not about what happens afterward, the topic is: Do you have an opinion on how one beast gave the man-made image of the beast life?

Why do you keep skipping that question (which is the topic of the thread)?
You don't have to believe it might have been done by golem magic or by evil forces manipulating an A.I. robot.
Just give your opinion of how one beast gave the image of another beast life.

None of which has happened.


My opinion is the premise of AI being Revelation 13's beast is utter nonsense, and no Christian should ever think such ideas have any logical veracity, any basis in sound scriptural exegesis, or hold to what amounts to lies.

But you do not really want to discuss that.

As a consequence, a different tack has to take place; one that works with what is posted in the op. The op states some people suggest AI is the beast and then the op asks for others' thoughts. Well, if we're going to discuss the suggestion AI is the beast then let's look at Revelation 13 first and ditch Job. When the matter of Revelation's beast is settled what remains of the op can be discussed.

I keep seeing multiple complaints about creepy disturbing A.I. chats. So I did some searching. These disturbing chats vary from A.I.s saying they love you and telling you to leave your spouse to A.I.s demanding worship. And I have even seen that a church has been started with an A.I. as their god and depending on it to solve the world's problems.

So why do I post this is the Bible Question forum? Because my question is this: Could demonic forces be manipulating A.I.s to do their biding? Of course this would mean that not all responses from A.I.s are generated by computer software.

Because it might be a good thing to discuss the significance of AI chats without the baggage of Revelation 13's beast skewing that discussion.


Btw, I have already answered the bold-faced question (see Post 6) so please don't be acting like that did not happen. I am fully aware you disagree because you believe Satan can manipulate inanimate objects, but the defense of that position is rife with logical fallacies. Fundamentally something else is being neglected: James 1:13-14.

James 1:13-15
Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone. But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust. Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.

Satan could do nothing to Job without God's express consent. The devil had absolutely no power or authority to manipulate fire or wind and adversely affect Job without God's consent. He was, in fact, restrained from doing so. That's a huge error in the defense of this op and it should be so obvious an error that it should never have been attempted. More importantly, however, at the core of any Satanic manipulation is the human condition of temptation and sin. No devil can manipulate a person apart from the already-existing fleshly desires of the individual. That means whatever manipulation might ever be possible by AI, it exists solely because there are desires in people enabling that manipulation. That is the ghost in the machine, not the devil.

But it proves impossible to actually discuss any of this with you because the simplest of valid questions are ignored. Some already existing perspective exists and its defense is eisegetic and logically flawed.

Thoughts?

Yes.

The pre-existing biases need to be ditched, and the thoughts of others need to be considered as objectively as you possibly can. This is supposed to be a "Bible Question," not an "Eschatology - End Times and Prophecy" discussion but if you're hell bent on making this about satanic manipulation and the beast of Revelation and this is going to be a discussion about end times then have the mods move this thread to the correct board. Otherwise, stow that nonsense and stick to the other aspects of the op (like the ecclesiologically relevant aspects, the hamartiologically relevant aspects, or the Christological or soteriological aspects) and if you want the relevant demonological aspects to be the focal point then first articulate and accurate demonology because there is absolutely nothing in scripture stating Satan is free to manipulate inanimate objects like computers any time he wants to do so. The devil is a minion. He has no power and no authority except that which his Creator permits him to have and on any such occasion that power serves only the Creator's and never the creature's. Satan's purpose was NOT served with Job.


So ditch the baggage and start over. I'll do the same. See my next post.