Did Jesus teach TULIP?

[donadams]

Perseverance of the saints teaches that those who believe will persevere to the end, because of the TULI.

They are given to Christ. (John 6)

They are born from above by the Holy Spirit (John 3)

They are purchased with His blood. (Gal 3:13-14)

Their sins are nailed to the cross. (Col 2:13-15)

They are sealed in Him. (Eph. 1:13-14)

Cannot be taken out of His hands. (John 10:28-29)

Can a person who believes the gospel come to reject or deny Christ?

 

[Arial]

Can a person who believes the gospel come to reject or deny Christ?

No and all the scriptures I gave you say that they can't. Read them and then determine whether your question was valid.

 

[Arial]

Where is the Immaculate Conception found in the bible?

Please. Do not feed the troll. It gives him exactly what he is after. A completely derailed thread that belongs in the Catholic board.

 

[donadams]

Where is the Immaculate Conception found in the bible?

Gen. 3:15
Lk 1:28
Lk 1:49
Rev. 12:1

 

[donadams]

Yes, @donadams, where does the Bible state Mary was "preserved free from all stain of original sin"?

Gen 3:15
Lk 1:28
Lk 1:49
Rev 12:1

 

[donadams]

That has nothing to do with the doctrine of Irresistible Grace (IG). IG does not teach God's grace cannot be resisted; it teaches God's grace accomplishes what God intends. That is why it is sometimes called "Effectual Grace." Dogma 122 has nothing to do with the "I" in TULIP. When you make it to do so then you are arguing a strawman and neither God nor the Catholic Church wants God's people to use strawmen.

We must accept grace and participate in christ

Heb 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

 

[CrowCross]

Please. Do not feed the troll. It gives him exactly what he is after. A completely derailed thread that belongs in the Catholic board.

So far all I have seen is some sort of cook book answers.

 

[CrowCross]

Gen 3:15
Lk 1:28
Lk 1:49
Rev 12:1

Don't ya just love it when someone throws a list of verses at you.....kinda like, a-ha, gotcha....and never provides commentary as to why they posted the list????

 

[Carbon]

Don't ya just love it when someone throws a list of verses at you.....kinda like, a-ha, gotcha....and never provides commentary as to why they posted the list????

Yep. It’s great ain’t it.

 

[donadams]

The OP is about whether Jesus taught TULIP or not. It is not about Mary.

He asked
I’m just clarifying

 

[Arial]

He asked
I’m just clarifying

That is no excuse. You threw the bait.

 

[Arial]

So far all I have seen is some sort of cook book answers.

Agreed.

 

[Arial]

Don’t we have to exercise free will and believe in the gospel?

No, and I am deleting your list of Catholic dogmas as they are irrelevant to the thread. You are using them to try and bait people into catering to your desires, instead of a discussion on the OP. The very definition of a troll.

Free will does not cause one to believe. ANd you are assuming that the doctrine of total depravity is not true instead of proving that Jesus did not teach it as per the OP.

 

[donadams]

No and all the scriptures I gave you say that they can't. Read them and then determine whether your question was valid.

Please do explain these verses

Lk 10:16 He that heareth you heareth me; and he that rejects you rejects me; and he that rejects me rejects him that sent me.

2 Timothy 2:12
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

 

[donadams]

Did Jesus teach these 5 points?



The following are the five points of Calvinism listed, explained, and supported with scripture.

1. Total Depravity– Man is completely touched/affected by sin in all that he is (in nature he is completely fallen), but is not as bad as he could be (in action, i.e., not all murder, etc.). Furthermore, this total depravity means that the unregenerate will not, of their own free will, choose to receive Christ.
   1. It is the unbeliever who is deceitful and wicked (Jer. 17:9), full of evil (Mark 7:21-23), loves darkness rather than light and does evil (John 3:19), does not seek for God nor does any good (Rom. 3:10-12), is ungodly (Rom. 5:6), dead in his sins (Eph. 2:1), by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3), cannot accept or understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14), and a slave of sin (Rom. 6:16-20).
2. Unconditional Election– God elects a person based upon nothing in that person because there is nothing in him that would make him worthy of being chosen; rather, God’s election is based on what is in God. God chose us because he decided to bestow his love and grace upon us, not because we are worthy, in and of ourselves, of being saved.
   1. Election is the sovereign act of God where, from before the foundation of the world, he chose those whom he would save (Eph. 1:4). This election to salvation is not conditioned upon any foreseen faith (Rom. 9:16) or good works of any individual (Rom. 9:11; 2 Tim. 1:9). The election is based completely on God’s sovereign choice according to the kind intention of His will (Eph. 1:11). God chose the elect because he decided to bestow his love upon them (John 3:16; Eph. 2:4) based solely on his sovereign grace (Gal. 1:15) and for his glory (Isaiah 43:7).
3. Limited Atonement– Christ bore the sin only of the elect, not everyone who ever lived.
   1. Christ’s blood was sufficient for all, but not all sin was imputed to Christ. Christ’s blood is sufficient to cover all people. But the sufficiency relates to his divine value which is different than our legal debt. Sin is a debt (Matt. 6:12 with Luke 11:4) since it is breaking the Law of God (1 John 3:4). In limited atonement, Calvinists are saying that there was a limit to whose sins were imputed to Christ in a legal sense. They are not denying the sufficiency of Christ’s blood to cover all people. Instead, they look at the legal aspect of the sin debt. Peoples’ sin debts were transferred to Jesus (1 Pet. 2:24) and were canceled on the cross, not when we believe (Col. 2:14). Therefore, legally speaking, those canceled sins cannot be held against the sinner because their quality of being a debt has been canceled by being paid on the cross (John 19:30; Col. 2:14). If the debt is canceled, it does not exist and cannot be held against the debtor/sinner. Therefore, Christ only legally bore the sins of the elect even though his blood was sufficient to cover all. Also, consider 1 Sam. 3:14 which says, “Therefore I have sworn to the house of Eli that the iniquity of Eli’s house shall not be atoned for by sacrifice or offering forever.”
4. Irresistible Grace– The term, unfortunately, suggests a mechanical and coercive force upon an unwilling subject. This is not the case. Instead, it is the act of God making the person willing to receive him. It does not mean that a person cannot resist God’s will. It means that when God moves to save/regenerate a person, the sinner cannot thwart God’s movement and he will be regenerated
   1. God moves the heart of the person where he wishes it to go (Proverbs 21:1). The choice and mercy of God depend on God’s desire, not man’s ability (Romans 9:18).
5. Perseverance of the Saints – That we are so secure in Christ, that we cannot fall away.
   1. Jesus will not lose any who had been given to him by the Father (John 6:38-39); he gives eternal life to them so they will never perish (John 3:16; 10:27-28), and those who leave the faith were never believers to begin with (1 John 2:19)

What happened to “faith alone” and our free will to resist or accept the grace gift of God?

 

[donadams]

Don't ya just love it when someone throws a list of verses at you.....kinda like, a-ha, gotcha....and never provides commentary as to why they posted the list????

All you ask for was scripture?

Gen 3:15 I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel.
(Enmities total war, none of satan’s works found in Her immaculate purity)

Lk 1:28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, Mary full of Grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.
(Immaculate purity, full of grace, blessed)

Lk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
(Mary must have immaculate purity)

Lk 1:47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour. (Preserved from all sin in virtue of the merits of the blood of the savior who is Her son)

Lk 1:49 For he that is mighty hath done to me great things; and holy is his name.
(Immaculate conception of Mary and the miraculous conception of Jesus)

Song of Solomon 4:1 Behold, thou art fair, my love; behold, thou art fair; thou hast doves' eyes within thy locks: thy hair is as a flock of goats, that appear from mount Gilead.

Rev 12:1 a woman clothed with the sun.
(Immaculate purity)

 

[donadams]

No, and I am deleting your list of Catholic dogmas as they are irrelevant to the thread. You are using them to try and bait people into catering to your desires, instead of a discussion on the OP. The very definition of a troll.

Free will does not cause one to believe. ANd you are assuming that the doctrine of total depravity is not true instead of proving that Jesus did not teach it as per the OP.

Thanks

 

[Arial]

Please do explain these verses

Lk 10:16 He that heareth you heareth me; and he that rejects you rejects me; and he that rejects me rejects him that sent me.

If this is connection with perseverance it says nothing about losing one's salvation. It means exactly what it says. I don't see where there is any ambiguity. Those who do not believe the gospel (which is what is meant by hearing, as people often hear it and do not believe it and they would be the ones rejecting it) when they hear it preached (or read it) do not hear Jesus. ANd if they reject Christ, they are rejecting God. I am not sure why you need that explained to you.

2 Timothy 2:12
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

If we suffer (for His sake) we will reign with Him. That is be victorious over sin and death as He is. If we deny Him, He will deny us. Why does that need to be explained to you? I think an eight year old could understand it---no offense intended.

In what way are you relating it to TULIP and whether Jesus taught it. YOu know---in the OP @Carbon gave scriptures supporting everypoint of the TULIP. Why don't you address them and keep them connected to the subject.

 

[Arial]

All you ask for was scripture?

Gen 3:15 I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel.
(Enmities total war, none of satan’s works found in Her immaculate purity)

Lk 1:28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, Mary full of Grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.
(Immaculate purity, full of grace, blessed)

Lk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
(Mary must have immaculate purity)

Lk 1:47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour. (Preserved from all sin in virtue of the merits of the blood of the savior who is Her son)

Lk 1:49 For he that is mighty hath done to me great things; and holy is his name.
(Immaculate conception of Mary and the miraculous conception of Jesus)

Song of Solomon 4:1 Behold, thou art fair, my love; behold, thou art fair; thou hast doves' eyes within thy locks: thy hair is as a flock of goats, that appear from mount Gilead.

Rev 12:1 a woman clothed with the sun.
(Immaculate purity)

ARE YOU STILL TALKING ABOUT MARY????

 

[Arial]

What happened to “faith alone” and our free will to resist or accept the grace gift of God?

What the heck Donadams! Don't you know how to grasp what a topic is and post accordingly? You quote the OP and then ask a question completely unrelated to it. The closest you came was to mention the word grace that is also contained in Irresistible Grace. There is no connection between the concept of faith alone and free will. There is no free will in the concept of Irresistible Grace. What does Jesus say about it?

One thing He says is that "No one can see or enter the kingdom of God unless they are born again, born from above, born of God. Another is that God gives Him those who come to Him and no one CAN come to Him unless God grants it. And that granting, that rebirth, that giving to Jesus, is a one and done, and it is grace. And if God is going to give His grace---not offers it---but gives it, then it is given, and the person has it. We are saved by grace through faith and that is a gift of God.