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D E M O N S

D E M O N S

Demons have been exacting their influence upon the human family since the fall of Adam and Eve. However, I have a bothersome problem with the view that they are the departed spirits of evil men. I find it rather strange that there is not a shred of heavenly attestation to confirm this view.
I agree they are not the spirits of evil men. That theory cannot be supported with scripture.


If demons are the spirits of evil men, Satan, a cosmic, extraterrestrial creature, mighty in his crafty ways, a prince among demons, must also be the spirit of some deceased, evil person. The problem with this idea, however, is that no evil person on Earth existed prior to the Fall. And Satan existed before the Fall. How, then, could Satan be the spirit of some evil person? If Satan is not some evil man’s spirit, where is his origin? I firmly believe the scriptures teach, or at least strongly indicate, that all demons have the same root as their father, Satan.

Let me tell you about the evil man in Luke 16 who died and, in his disembodied state, begged Abraham for mercy. I find that strange, because if the spirits of evil men become demons at death and spend the remainder of their existence deceiving and leading us astray, why would this evil spirit beg for mercy? Yes, demonic spirits cry out for mercy. Many whom Jesus cast out cried out for mercy, and some even uttered, “We know who you are!”

On one occasion, Jesus confronted an unclean—evil—spirit who had taken possession of a man. The man lived among the tombs and could not be bound, even with shackles and chains. No one had the strength to subdue him. But when he saw Jesus approaching, he ran and fell down before Him and, crying out with a loud voice, said, “What have you to do with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I adjure you by God, do not torment me” [Mark 5:1-20].

Good points.


The demon’s name was Legion, “for we are many,” he said. Numerous demons had taken control of this poor man and had made shipwreck of his life. The demons begged Jesus not to send them “out of the country,” which probably means, “Do not send us back to the place of perdition from whence we came.” A great herd of pigs was feeding nearby, on the mountainside, so the demons begged Jesus, “Send us to the pigs, let us enter them.” Jesus did, and the herd of pigs, about two thousand, went wild “and rushed down the steep bank into the sea and were drowned.” Three questions here:

1] If evil spirits are the spirits of deceased evil men whose mission is to deceive and lead astray, why do they beg for mercy?

2] Why would God permit a person’s evil spirit to continue his ungodly ways in the spirit world? It seems to me that his days of practicing evil ended forever at death.

3] How did these demons recognize Jesus as the Son of the Most High God?

Good points.


My answer to the last question is, because they knew Him in heaven!

I see nothing in scripture to back that up. It is one theory.

If I understand the scriptures correctly, demons are fallen angels—celestial beings who, at some time in past history, rebelled against God and His holy angels and were cast out of their heavenly abode. “For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to tartarus [place of containment or place for future punishment], putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment...” [2 Peter 2:4]. They are restrained, their powers are limited, but they still constitute the forces of evil—loose, but restricted. Jude says these angels did not keep their positions of authority [v. 6].— Perhaps more on this subject later.
I disagree there are differences between fallen angels and demons. All fallen angels are NOT in chains! The ones that committed the sin of Genesis 6 and Jude 6&7 are in chains, per Jude. We cannot stop at verse 6. Verse 7 is the context and explanation for verse 6.

I have my theory based on many years of study. That theory is that demons are the disembodied spirts of those beings created from the Genesis 6 event. I know of no other possibility than fallen angels are the demons or the spirits of those Genesis 6 entities. Fallen angels is just the default of many who reject what Genesis 6 and Jude 6 & 7 say about the matter.

Many reject that reading of Genesis 6 and have no where to go but to claim fallen angels are demons, but I believe there is sufficient evidence in scripture to refute that.

Demons are very different and less powerful than fallen angels. Evidence from Daniel proves that.

Many will recoil and attack me for my next statement. The Book of Enoch supports this BUT the book of Enoch IS NOT needed to make a case. I KNOW ENOCH IS NOT IN OUR CANON OF SCRIPTURE! It is in the Ethiopian church canon.

Other extra Biblical sources also support this. The Genesis 6 incursion his a widely held belief and has been held by many throughput church history.

There IS NO VERSE in scripture to absolutely solve this beyond a shadow of a doubt. I hold there is plenty of evidence to point that way.
 
There is no life after one takes their last breath.
False!

Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

There is more scripture, but this one passage proves your statement is in error.
 
LOTS of "opinions" about demonic spirits. I'll observe that they don't seem to ACT as Angels (wanting to infest a human body). Angels have their OWN bodies, and don't need ours.

Demonic spirits seem to have "HUMAN APPETITES" - i.e. they play to our LUSTS, and appear to want to have us "Act them out" for the demon's enjoyment.
Good observation.

Those of us who ascribe to the "Gap theory" (an unknown span of time, and possibly other "creations" on this dirt ball) allow the existence of "spiritual beings" from previous populations who were destroyed in a previous JUDGEMENT rendering the earth "without form and Void" as it's found in Gen 1:2.

This is one theory I left out of my post #62.

That there ARE "Evil influences" that appear to know "which buttons to push" to lead us astray is beyond question.

In MY case, I'll simply allow their existence, and find out the WHOLE STORY later, when I KNOW, even as I am Known (1 Cor 13:12).
Demons are still active in our world. Just look at the recent atrocities of Hamas!
 
Demons are still active in our world. Just look at the recent atrocities of Hamas!
Absolutely - It's the FRUIT of their demonic ISLAMIC religious system.

What's interesting is the worldly Governments and the MEDIA, seem hell-bent on convincing us that ISRAEL IS THE ONE AT FAULT for the whole sorry affair.

THIS would be an indication that the "End Times" are growing nigh. "Israel being encompassed by enemies" seems to be in process.
 
I agree they are not the spirits of evil men. That theory cannot be supported with scripture.



Good points.



Good points.



I see nothing in scripture to back that up. It is one theory.


I disagree there are differences between fallen angels and demons. All fallen angels are NOT in chains! The ones that committed the sin of Genesis 6 and Jude 6&7 are in chains, per Jude. We cannot stop at verse 6. Verse 7 is the context and explanation for verse 6.

I have my theory based on many years of study. That theory is that demons are the disembodied spirts of those beings created from the Genesis 6 event. I know of no other possibility than fallen angels are the demons or the spirits of those Genesis 6 entities. Fallen angels is just the default of many who reject what Genesis 6 and Jude 6 & 7 say about the matter.

Many reject that reading of Genesis 6 and have no where to go but to claim fallen angels are demons, but I believe there is sufficient evidence in scripture to refute that.

Demons are very different and less powerful than fallen angels. Evidence from Daniel proves that.

Many will recoil and attack me for my next statement. The Book of Enoch supports this BUT the book of Enoch IS NOT needed to make a case. I KNOW ENOCH IS NOT IN OUR CANON OF SCRIPTURE! It is in the Ethiopian church canon.

Other extra Biblical sources also support this. The Genesis 6 incursion his a widely held belief and has been held by many throughput church history.

There IS NO VERSE in scripture to absolutely solve this beyond a shadow of a doubt. I hold there is plenty of evidence to point that way.
Wordsmith: All of the items in my posts with which you disagree have been adequately addressed and answered, and that is sufficient on my part.
 
D E M O N S

Demons have been exacting their influence upon the human family since the fall of Adam and Eve. However, I have a bothersome problem with the view that they are the departed spirits of evil men. I find it rather strange that there is not a shred of heavenly attestation to confirm this view.

If demons are the spirits of evil men, Satan, a cosmic, extraterrestrial creature, mighty in his crafty ways, a prince among demons, must also be the spirit of some deceased, evil person. The problem with this idea, however, is that no evil person on Earth existed prior to the Fall. And Satan existed before the Fall. How, then, could Satan be the spirit of some evil person? If Satan is not some evil man’s spirit, where is his origin? I firmly believe the scriptures teach, or at least strongly indicate, that all demons have the same root as their father, Satan.

Let me tell you about the evil man in Luke 16 who died and, in his disembodied state, begged Abraham for mercy. I find that strange, because if the spirits of evil men become demons at death and spend the remainder of their existence deceiving and leading us astray, why would this evil spirit beg for mercy? Yes, demonic spirits cry out for mercy. Many whom Jesus cast out cried out for mercy, and some even uttered, “We know who you are!”

On one occasion, Jesus confronted an unclean—evil—spirit who had taken possession of a man. The man lived among the tombs and could not be bound, even with shackles and chains. No one had the strength to subdue him. But when he saw Jesus approaching, he ran and fell down before Him and, crying out with a loud voice, said, “What have you to do with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I adjure you by God, do not torment me” [Mark 5:1-20].

The demon’s name was Legion, “for we are many,” he said. Numerous demons had taken control of this poor man and had made shipwreck of his life. The demons begged Jesus not to send them “out of the country,” which probably means, “Do not send us back to the place of perdition from whence we came.” A great herd of pigs was feeding nearby, on the mountainside, so the demons begged Jesus, “Send us to the pigs, let us enter them.” Jesus did, and the herd of pigs, about two thousand, went wild “and rushed down the steep bank into the sea and were drowned.” Three questions here:

1] If evil spirits are the spirits of deceased evil men whose mission is to deceive and lead astray, why do they beg for mercy?

2] Why would God permit a person’s evil spirit to continue his ungodly ways in the spirit world? It seems to me that his days of practicing evil ended forever at death.

3] How did these demons recognize Jesus as the Son of the Most High God?

My answer to the last question is, because they knew Him in heaven! If I understand the scriptures correctly, demons are fallen angels—celestial beings who, at some time in past history, rebelled against God and His holy angels and were cast out of their heavenly abode. “For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to tartarus [place of containment or place for future punishment], putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment...” [2 Peter 2:4]. They are restrained, their powers are limited, but they still constitute the forces of evil—loose, but restricted. Jude says these angels did not keep their positions of authority [v. 6].— Perhaps more on this subject later.

You might like the works of Justin Martyr as you seem to talk about some things of interest to him. Try Apology 1 by Justin Martyr. It's an interesting read from early Christian thought in around 155-157 AD.

As far as demons go, do not be afraid. Demons hate God's people and just want to make problems for them.
 
You might like the works of Justin Martyr as you seem to talk about some things of interest to him. Try Apology 1 by Justin Martyr. It's an interesting read from early Christian thought in around 155-157 AD.

As far as demons go, do not be afraid. Demons hate God's people and just want to make problems for them.
Thank you, brother, for your input and suggestion.
 
False!

Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

There is more scripture, but this one passage proves your statement is in error.

Can't hear the dead cry out. Can you ?

Walking according to God's unseen understanding all Christians can see the things God has prepared for them.

A soul like a spirit does not have literal form

After one takes their last breath that's the end .

If you desire to make God one who demands more than death as some sort of eternal sufferings .Then that's your choice God is not cruel

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Die once really dead deader than a doornail not the cruelty of sufferings forever

That a Catholic doctrine passed on from the unbelieving Jews
(limbo purgatory)
 
Can't hear the dead cry out. Can you ?
No but the souls of the righteous dead are in heaven as proved by the scripture I posted which you did not address.


Walking according to God's unseen understanding all Christians can see the things God has prepared for them.
Scripture please?

A soul like a spirit does not have literal form
Does not have a flesh and blood form but they were conscious and communicating in heaven none the less.


After one takes their last breath that's the end .
Of physical life on earth yes, but that is not the end. Multiple scriptures refute that.


If you desire to make God one who demands more than death as some sort of eternal sufferings .Then that's your choice God is not cruel

I don't make God anything and His word will sort all of this out for us.

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

You have to ignore a lot of scripture to get to where you are going with this. false notion. Yes at death your fate is sealed the choices you have made in life determine your location after physical death.

Die once really dead deader than a doornail not the cruelty of sufferings forever
Maybe you should take this up with Jesus and let Him know what He meant!

That a Catholic doctrine passed on from the unbelieving Jews
(limbo purgatory)
Not interested in the purgatory doctrine.
 
The point here seems to be that prior to Jesus’ resurrection from death, no one had ever resurrected never to die again. Satan was in control. Jesus defeated him once again by doing what no man had ever done before—resurrecting from death. Satan must have cried “foul ball” when Jesus carried a host of captives with Him into glory. And Paul quotes from Isaiah, “Death is swallowed up in victory! O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?” [1 Cor. 15:54].

Satan and his demonic soldiers have lost much of their armor and weapons. They can no longer take complete control of the innocent against their will. He lost the battle when he took on the Son of God. And he will lose the battle when he takes us on if we continue to depend and rely upon the Captain and Pioneer of our salvation—Jesus.
You are right in that we have power through Jesus over evil entities you are wrong that they no longer are a problem today.

Born agin believers in Christ CANNOT be demon possessed but the unsaved can!

It was still happening in Acts 19 and it is still happening today.

Satan was defeated at the cross but he was not eliminated and will not be until Christ returns.
 
Satan's activities are restrained but not totally. Prior to the resurrection of our Lord, his activities and powers were somewhat "super." See my initial posts on this.

2 Corinthians 4:1 Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not;

2 But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.

3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Satan was defeated at the cross and that defeat is handed out by the church by the power of Christ working in us.

Satan is no less active subverting and causing havoc in our day than at any other time. People are still possessed and in need of deliverance.

Any doctrine that says satan in currently bound and demons are not active today is ERROR and does great harm to the church!
 
D E M O N S

Demons have been exacting their influence upon the human family since the fall of Adam and Eve. However, I have a bothersome problem with the view that they are the departed spirits of evil men. I find it rather strange that there is not a shred of heavenly attestation to confirm this view.

If demons are the spirits of evil men, Satan, a cosmic, extraterrestrial creature, mighty in his crafty ways, a prince among demons, must also be the spirit of some deceased, evil person. The problem with this idea, however, is that no evil person on Earth existed prior to the Fall. And Satan existed before the Fall. How, then, could Satan be the spirit of some evil person? If Satan is not some evil man’s spirit, where is his origin? I firmly believe the scriptures teach, or at least strongly indicate, that all demons have the same root as their father, Satan.

Let me tell you about the evil man in Luke 16 who died and, in his disembodied state, begged Abraham for mercy. I find that strange, because if the spirits of evil men become demons at death and spend the remainder of their existence deceiving and leading us astray, why would this evil spirit beg for mercy? Yes, demonic spirits cry out for mercy. Many whom Jesus cast out cried out for mercy, and some even uttered, “We know who you are!”

On one occasion, Jesus confronted an unclean—evil—spirit who had taken possession of a man. The man lived among the tombs and could not be bound, even with shackles and chains. No one had the strength to subdue him. But when he saw Jesus approaching, he ran and fell down before Him and, crying out with a loud voice, said, “What have you to do with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I adjure you by God, do not torment me” [Mark 5:1-20].

The demon’s name was Legion, “for we are many,” he said. Numerous demons had taken control of this poor man and had made shipwreck of his life. The demons begged Jesus not to send them “out of the country,” which probably means, “Do not send us back to the place of perdition from whence we came.” A great herd of pigs was feeding nearby, on the mountainside, so the demons begged Jesus, “Send us to the pigs, let us enter them.” Jesus did, and the herd of pigs, about two thousand, went wild “and rushed down the steep bank into the sea and were drowned.” Three questions here:

1] If evil spirits are the spirits of deceased evil men whose mission is to deceive and lead astray, why do they beg for mercy?

2] Why would God permit a person’s evil spirit to continue his ungodly ways in the spirit world? It seems to me that his days of practicing evil ended forever at death.

3] How did these demons recognize Jesus as the Son of the Most High God?

My answer to the last question is, because they knew Him in heaven! If I understand the scriptures correctly, demons are fallen angels—celestial beings who, at some time in past history, rebelled against God and His holy angels and were cast out of their heavenly abode. “For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to tartarus [place of containment or place for future punishment], putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment...” [2 Peter 2:4]. They are restrained, their powers are limited, but they still constitute the forces of evil—loose, but restricted. Jude says these angels did not keep their positions of authority [v. 6].— Perhaps more on this subject later.
No, the Bible is clear they are angels that satan deceived and were thrown out of heaven with him. But how they exist now and their powers and abilities, is what's hard to understand...
 
Wordsmith: All of the items in my posts with which you disagree have been adequately addressed and answered, and that is sufficient on my part.
I disagree! If I missed where you dealt with Genesis 6 and Jude 6&7 as related to then sons of God and the daughters of men, please point it out and I will go back and reread it.
 
No but the souls of the righteous dead are in heaven as proved by the scripture I posted which you did not address.
God is not a man the temporal seen

I did address it you simply ignored . Can't see souls or spirits.or hear cries (necromancy) hearing the dead

Dying flesh the temporal . . yes it viewable. dried up bones . . no spirit life

Does not have a flesh and blood form but they were conscious and communicating in heaven none the less.
Can't commune with the dead asleep( necromancy)

I don't make God anything and His word will sort all of this out for us.
His word has sorted it out No communing with the dead for those still alive .

Maybe you should take this up with Jesus and let Him know what He meant!
Yes. our Holy Father informs us he will have mercy on whom he has mercy it rejoices against condemnation.

He himself is subject to that law. Two kinds of mercy. Mercy seasoned with grace and the other no more sufferings the living pangs of hell in these earthen bodies of death .

James 2:13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.

Its appointed for all men to die once .No mistrial or double jeopardy.
 
God is not a man the temporal seen

I did address it you simply ignored .
I didn't ignore , you didn't address, but we can try again.
Can't see souls or spirits.or hear cries (necromancy) hearing the dead
Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

John SAW the souls of those slain.

10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

Those souls that John saw "cried with a loud voice" and John heard them.

This is not communing with the dead it is John seeing what Jesus wanted him to see and hear.

Now you can explain this passage or ignore it again.


Dying flesh the temporal . .
Yes
yes it viewable.
Yes
dried up bones . .
Yes
no spirit life
False!
Can't commune with the dead asleep( necromancy)


His word has sorted it out No communing with the dead for those still alive .

I never said anything about communing wit the dead.
 
John SAW the souls of those slain.

Ok he was sent a vision one of the manners of prophecy. He did not literal see a soul it has no form.
Those souls that John saw "cried with a loud voice" and John heard them.
John heard prophecy not the literal voice of the dead. God does not promote necromancy communing with dead saints.

That kind of idea is a Catholic doctrine as commandments of dying mankind. . passed down from the unbelieving Jew. I heard it through the legion of fathers' grapevine.
 
Ok he was sent a vision one of the manners of prophecy. He did not literal see a soul it has no form.

John heard prophecy not the literal voice of the dead. God does not promote necromancy communing with dead saints.

That kind of idea is a Catholic doctrine as commandments of dying mankind. . passed down from the unbelieving Jew. I heard it through the legion of fathers' grapevine.
It is the same as when God told Cain 'the voice of thy brothers blood crieth out unto me from the ground' in Genesis 4:10. It is not literally a person or Abels live voice crying, but figuratively or metaphorically speaking..
 
Can't commune with the dead asleep( necromancy)

His word has sorted it out No communing with the dead for those still alive .
To understand this properly, sinners can communicate with the dead but God calls this a sin to do that when they should be going to the Lord.

Isaiah 8:19 And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?

The former king Saul consulted with a medium to contact the prophet Samuel because he was not getting any answers from the Lord in prayer in 1 Samuel 28th Chapter

Jesus sharing the account of the rich man being in hell and the beggar, Lazarus, being in Abraham's bosom aka Paradise, is confirmation that there is an awareness of the souls of the dead that have departed.

The corpses as in their physical bodies may be "asleep" but they shall be resurrected, yea, even the sinners at the Great White Throne Judgment.
 
Ok he was sent a vision one of the manners of prophecy. He did not literal see a soul it has no form.

John heard prophecy not the literal voice of the dead. God does not promote necromancy communing with dead saints.

That kind of idea is a Catholic doctrine as commandments of dying mankind. . passed down from the unbelieving Jew. I heard it through the legion of fathers' grapevine.
With all due respect my friend your post is not accurate.

There is no scripture that tells us a soul in heaven has no form of any kind. It should be obvious it is not the physical earthly form.

There is no scripture that tells us a soul in heaven cannot speak or hear.



Revelation 6:9-10 proves they have some form John could see and voices he could hear. Those souls John SAW spoke and were
responded to with "
rest yet for a little season" so they could also hear.

Vision or not that is what God showed John and because someone chooses not to believe it changes nothing.

Taking a false doctrine and working backwards to say scripture does not mean what it plainly says because it does not line up with that false doctrine is no way to interpret scripture!

2 Corinthians 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

When our earthly body returns to dust we have a new FORM not made with hands.

2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

We desire that new FORM.

3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

While we are in our physical FORM we are not present with the Lord in our heavenly FORM.

7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight

8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, (physically dead) and to be present with the Lord. (soul present with the Lord)

This passage is clear when a believer dies (physically) they are present with the Lord (the soul) as per Revelation 6:9-10. That is two witnesses from scripture.

Soul sleep is a false doctrine!

There is no necromancy here that is a false supposition.
 
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