D E M O N S

[ChristB4us]

Which is why the text should be understood within the Biblical context. Perhaps I did not make my case sufficiently clear because your response makes my case!

If we think "hell" is a specific place somewhere in creation where dead people go to hang out under the rule of Satan (or anyone other than God Himself) we're doing so with a mindset that is more pagan than Christian, more mythological than scriptural. To the Greek, Roman, Norse, etc. - the pagan mindset - hel was a place where people went when they died. That place was under the surface of the earth and despite the people being dead they were still conscious. They moped around in the underworld in misery because they no longer lived a life above ground where they could do as they pleased. Theirs was a an existent subjected to the rule of Hel (Germanic/Norse), Hades or Tartarus (Greek), Pluto (Roman), Osiris (Egyptian), Nergal (Babylonian/Assyrian), Mot (Canaanite), or any number of the pagan cultural myths surrounding Israel.

NONE of it is what Jesus taught.

Alternatively, The classic, mainstream, orthodox Judaic view was that of Sheol. While references to an afterlife can be found throughout the Old Testament that was not the prevailing theology in Judaism. In Judaism you died and that was it. Their theology was nihilistic. The dead know nothing.

Au contraire. Jesus did teach it with the account of the rich man and the beggar, Lazarus.

Luke 16:19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: 20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, 21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. 25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. 26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. 27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: 28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. 29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. 31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

If you are referring to this reference about the dead know nothing;

Ecclesiastes 9:4 For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

The "dead know nothing" is in the context of this message as what the living seek to gain in the land of the living while they have hope. There is no such gain in the realm of the living if you are dead. That is all that is meant by that reference.

This does not mean they there is no awareness in the afterlife since obviously Jesus testified otherwise.

 

[ChristB4us]

Alternatively, The classic, mainstream, orthodox Judaic view was that of Sheol. While references to an afterlife can be found throughout the Old Testament that was not the prevailing theology in Judaism. In Judaism you died and that was it. Their theology was nihilistic. The dead know nothing.

Maybe some Jews believed in that way, but not all Jews since scripture testifies even in the O.T. that there is awareness after death.

Remember this warning in scripture?

Isaiah 8:19 And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?

This was not testifying that the living could not contact the dead but that they were to go to the Lord for guidance and answers and help.

King Saul did not do that one time and look how he used a medium to call up the spirit of the prophet Samuel and it was him, because he rebuked him for doing that and prophesied his end along with his sons in the coming battle ahead.

1 Samuel 28:5 And when Saul saw the host of the Philistines, he was afraid, and his heart greatly trembled. 6 And when Saul enquired of the Lord, the Lord answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets. 7 Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and enquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor. 8 And Saul disguised himself, and put on other raiment, and he went, and two men with him, and they came to the woman by night: and he said, I pray thee, divine unto me by the familiar spirit, and bring me him up, whom I shall name unto thee. 9 And the woman said unto him, Behold, thou knowest what Saul hath done, how he hath cut off those that have familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land: wherefore then layest thou a snare for my life, to cause me to die? 10 And Saul sware to her by the Lord, saying, As the Lord liveth, there shall no punishment happen to thee for this thing. 11 Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel.

12 And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul.

13 And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.

14 And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.

15 And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.

16 Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the Lord is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy? 17 And the Lord hath done to him, as he spake by me: for the Lord hath rent the kingdom out of thine hand, and given it to thy neighbour, even to David:

18 Because thou obeyedst not the voice of the Lord, nor executedst his fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore hath the Lord done this thing unto thee this day.

19 Moreover the Lord will also deliver Israel with thee into the hand of the Philistines: and to morrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me: the Lord also shall deliver the host of Israel into the hand of the Philistines.

20 Then Saul fell straightway all along on the earth, and was sore afraid, because of the words of Samuel: and there was no strength in him; for he had eaten no bread all the day, nor all the night.

Some naysayers say it was an evil spirit masquerading as Samuel but this is scripture and so scripture would testify that it was an evil spirit masquerading as Samuel but it wasn't. Scripture testified to that spirit as that prophet Samuel that prophesied by the Lord to Saul his end.

 

[ChristB4us]

Side note; at His death, Jesus descended into the earth to preach to those in prison, Abraham's bosom aka Paradise. After His resurrection and ascension, Paradise is now located in Heaven, by bringing the captivity captive, He took Paradise into Heaven.

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;...

Ephesians 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. 9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

Paul testified indirectly about the apostle John of his supernatural experience in Heaven by the Lord to write the Book of Revelation confirming that Paradise was indeed taken to the third Heaven where Jesus is now.

2 Corinthians 12:1It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. 2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth 4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

At the time of Christ's no one has ascended to Heaven yet ( God's throne ) .....

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Jesus is referring to God's throne here since that was where He had come from.

Even though Enoch & Elijah were taken up to "heaven" the upper atmosphere & I suspect travelling through time and space to be dropped off at the beginning of the great tribulation as those 2 preachers in Jerusalem. There is precedent because of how Philip was taken by the Spirit from one place to another; and so Enoch and Elijah did not ascend to that Heaven where God's throne is at for John 3:13 to be true.

Acts 8:39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing. 40 But Philip was found at Azotus: and passing through he preached in all the cities, till he came to Caesarea.

Seeing how there are souls under the altar in Revelation of those not resurrected at the pre great tribulation rapture as well as the souls of the living unrepentant saints & former believers that get left behind that gets killed also along with new believers as a result of the rapture afterwards when that 1st angel spreads the everlasting gospel everywhere before the end comes, that is proof of an awareness in the afterlife.

Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Kind of heard for souls not to have an awareness when they are asking the Lord a question for when he will avenge them that are on the earth.

@Josheb

 

[turbomaniac]

Got scripture for that?

It is written in Job's book that Angels praised Lord after making the Stars and it is written in books that Saints written as Saint John the Chrysostom, Saint John from Damascus and even a newer Saint Nectarios who his life has become a movie (Man of God). This is thousands years of church tradition that most calvinists and other protestants have rejected. But is it right to reject thousands of Saints most of them gave testimony with their blood, prosecuted even from the Church that they served? I believe not. Because the Holy Bible cannot be interpretated and understood well without the help of all Saints. We have not the same Grace that they had by the Holy Spirit. We have to spent many years studying, praying and living a clean life in order to have that Grace to interpratate good the Bible. It is just the way it is, we cannot change God's will. Remember how many years the great David spent in prosecution in order to be David. After all God said it clearly: "if anyone wishes to come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross daily* and follow me". What is this cross? It is the years we have to spent in praying, studying and living a christian life. It is not easy but the Lord will see our effort and will help us.

 

[Josheb]

I would offer. Sadducees were upper-class. Sadducees doubted the existence of spiritual beings like angels. But followed the Pharisees as to venerating what they call patron saints disembodied worker with a familiar spirit.Catholic today 3500 and rising disembodied lying spirit workers with idols images available $$$$

Both worshiping the dead family member or renown . Not acknowledging only one manner of spirit that works in born again mankind. That of the Father called "this manner" . No other invisible forces working beside the the legion the spirit of lies No such thing as angels a word that was not coined until around the 15th century previously defined as messenger apostles how beautiful are thier feet shod with the gospel. .

Matthew 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

Again no other spirit being that some call angels. Christ in us yoked with him our daily burdens made lighter

The Pharisees with Sadducees would be simular today as the Greek orthodox with the Roman Catholic. Both following oral traditions of dying mankind called a law of the legion of fathers .

Different list of patron saint to seek after as if the were serking after our Holy Father. One invisible Devine entity not thousands of dead fathers.

What does any of that have to do with humans being demons?

 

[Josheb]

Au contraire. Jesus did teach it with the account of the rich man and the beggar, Lazarus.

Okay, let's test that statement.

Where did Jesus say hell was in the underworld?
Where is the mention of a lesser god ruling that realm?
Note that Jesus' parable, is a parable, a short story used to illustrate a moral or spiritual lesson and not a literal, factual theological exposition about what happens when a person dies.
Note also that in Jesus' parable the dead do know something and have not ceased to exist.

Now, please: no lengthy response. Just answer the questions asked and succinctly address the points made. Plainly state where Jesus said hell was in the underworld and plainly state where Jesus mentioned any lesser god ruling that realm. Acknowledge the nature of Jesus story. Acknowledge the fact Jesus has taught something much different than Ecclesiastes 9:5.

Luke 16:19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: 20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, 21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. 25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. 26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. 27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: 28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. 29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. 31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Okay. You know how to copy and paste scripture. Do you know how to read it? If so then state where hell is reported to be in the underworld? State where Jesus said hell was ruled by a lesser God. Provide the evidence this parable is a literal exposition on the actual nature of what happens on the other side of the grave.

If you are referring to this reference about the dead know nothing;

Ecclesiastes 9:4 For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

Where's the mention of the underworld? Where's the mention of a lesser god ruling hell?

The "dead know nothing" is in the context of this message as what the living seek to gain in the land of the living while they have hope.

Which is exactly what I posted. There is more to that passage than this, but what you just posted is exactly what I previously posted. You are arguing with me but proving what I posted true.

There is no such gain in the realm of the living if you are dead. That is all that is meant by that reference.

Perhaps I wasn't clear. Where is the mention of the underworld? Where is the mention of a lesser god ruling that realm?

This does not mean they there is no awareness in the afterlife since obviously Jesus testified otherwise.

(josh shakes head)

JESUS TESTIFIED OTHERWISE!​

I stated over and over and over and over, again and again and again Jesus taught something different than the pagan and Sadducean views.

• Jesus taught something different than the pagan view of hell.
• No, he didn't. The parable of Lazarus and the rich man proves it.
• Really? I don't see it. Where's the mention of hell being an underworld? Where's the mention of a lesser god ruling that realm?

Do you understand Jesus was not speaking Greek when he preached to Israel in Israel in the first century? He probably taught in Aramaic since that was the prominent language for that area in that era, but he might have been speaking Hebrew because his audience was Jewish. He probably did not use the word "hell" at all! When the New Testament writers recorded their gospels, they did so in Greek (although there is some evidence Matthew was originally written in Aramaic).

You want to contest what I wrote in Post #36 but you are not proving a single word of it incorrect. You are not proving Jesus ever taught hell was a separate realm, an underworld ruled by a lesser god, and you're not proving lesser gods exist. There is only one God in the Bible and that God is God. There are no gods but God.

Habakkuk 2:18
What benefit is a carved image when its maker has carved it, Or a cast metal image, a teacher of falsehood? For its maker trusts in his own handiwork When he fashions speechless idols.

1 Corinthians 10:19-20
What do I mean then? That a thing sacrificed to idols is anything, or that an idol is anything? No, but I say that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to demons and not to God; and I do not want you to become sharers in demons.

Idols are nothing. The Gentiles sacrifice to demons - NOT lesser gods. All those gods I listed in Post 36 are nothing. They were creations of human hands, not the Creator. Every single one of them was an idol, a man-made idol.

Man-made gods and their idols do not rule anything.

You've wasted both our time disputing something that is true, and you the dissent does not prove the pagan views or the Sadducean view correct.

Matthew 22:23
That same day the Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came to Jesus and questioned Him.

Stop wasting my time disagreeing with me when scripture explicitly states what I posted.

Mark 12:18 KJV
Then some Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came to Him; and they asked Him, saying:

Stop wasting my time.

Luke 20:27
Then some of the Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came to question Him.

Stop wasting my time.

Acts 23:8
For the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, nor an angel, nor a spirit, but the Pharisees acknowledge them all.

Stop wasting my time.

 

[Josheb]

This does not mean they there is no awareness in the afterlife since obviously Jesus testified otherwise.

Which is exactly what I posted.

Jesus taught something different than what the Sadducees believed. All those Sadducees listening to the parable of Lazarus and the rich man thought Jesus was a liar, a false teacher simply because the parable said the two dead men were still alive on the other side of the grave. All the Sadducees and their followers held to a different view.

Jesus testified otherwise!​

Read the posts and read them to understand them. Think before you post. You are disagreeing where there is no disagreement.

Which is why whenever I am at an impasse with anyone in any discussion and they keep glossing over the truth in scripture as if scripture did not really mean that, is why I ask them to pray to the Lord in the event that they may be blinded to the truth due to a teaching from their church.

On this occasion you should be praying for yourself, asking God to help you understand the truth in scripture because the scriptures plainly, directly, explicitly teach the Sadducees did not believe in life after death, a resurrection, and they did not believe in angels or demons.

Jesus taught something different!​

.

Which is why whenever I am at an impasse with anyone in any discussion and they keep glossing over the truth in scripture as if scripture did not really mean that, is why I [break the forum rules to which I agreed, make myself a hypocrite, elevating myself above the other person and] ask them to pray to the Lord in the event that they may be blinded to the truth due to a teaching from their church [when scripture directs me to start with myself and pray in silence].

Which is what I told you many, many posts ago when you tried to pull that god-forsaken condescension on me.

If you are ever at an impasse with anyone, always start with yourself. Ask what it is you might be missing. Ask God to show you what it is you might have to learn from another...... because on this occasion scripture plainly states the Sadducean view was wrong, and Jesus taught something different, and you've just was time, energy, cyberspace, and posts to argue where there is no disagreement. Likewise, the Bible does not teach there is an underworld realm ruled by a lesser god. The Bible does not teach lesser gods exist. What the Bible teaches is there is only one God and He and He alone is God. All other creatures are creatures, created creatures and not gods. They are myths. Sin-saturated humans made idols representing these so-called gods and scripture explicitly states those men were worshiping demons, not gods. Jesus did not teach Greek, Roman, German, Egyptian, Babylonian, etc., etc. mythologies. Jesus did not teach death was all there is, and Jesus did not teach there is no afterlife, no angels, no demons, Jesus did NOT teach there is no resurrection.

Jesus taught something different!​

Go back and re-read Post #36 now that it has been clarified. Better understand it. Realize your mistakes and ask yourself how it is you thought it acceptable and fruitful to dissent.

 

[Josheb]

Side note; at His death, Jesus...........................................

Kind of heard for souls not to have an awareness when they are asking the Lord a question for when he will avenge them that are on the earth.

@Josheb

What is the subject of this op?

 

[ChristB4us]

Okay, let's test that statement.

Where did Jesus say hell was in the underworld?

Luke 16:19-31 KJV

Luke 16:19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: 20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, 21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

Where is the mention of a lesser god ruling that realm?

I was not defending that point at all.

Note that Jesus' parable, is a parable, a short story used to illustrate a moral or spiritual lesson and not a literal, factual theological exposition about what happens when a person dies.
Note also that in Jesus' parable the dead do know something and have not ceased to exist.

Now, please: no lengthy response. Just answer the questions asked and succinctly address the points made. Plainly state where Jesus said hell was in the underworld and plainly state where Jesus mentioned any lesser god ruling that realm. Acknowledge the nature of Jesus story. Acknowledge the fact Jesus has taught something much different than Ecclesiastes 9:5.

You had claimed earlier that the Jews believed there is nothing after death. For Jesus to say that, how easy is it for the Jews to ridicule Jesus and calling Him a false prophet? The Jews were always looking for a reason to catch Him in a lie and so why give Him wide berth on that IF you say the jews really believed there was nothing after death?

Okay. You know how to copy and paste scripture. Do you know how to read it? If so then state where hell is reported to be in the underworld? State where Jesus said hell was ruled by a lesser God. Provide the evidence this parable is a literal exposition on the actual nature of what happens on the other side of the grave.

Never said there was a lesser god that ruled the underworld. I was refuting the point of there being nothing after death.

Where's the mention of the underworld? Where's the mention of a lesser god ruling hell?

I was addressing YOUR reference about the dead knowing nothing as if there is no awareness after death BUT I was showing this in context that your "the dead know nothing" is taken out of context and does not mean what you inferred that to mean.

Which is exactly what I posted. There is more to that passage than this, but what you just posted is exactly what I previously posted. You are arguing with me but proving what I posted true.


Stop wasting my time.

The point I was making thru the rest of my post is that there is an awareness after death. Jesus said so..

As for "a god ruling the underworld", I never touched on that point at all as if disagreeing with it. That is your dissertation as if that is inclusive to the point you are opposing that there is an awareness after death.

 

[ChristB4us]

Which is exactly what I posted.

Okay. I can admit that I read your original quote wrong.

NONE of it is what Jesus taught.

Alternatively, The classic, mainstream, orthodox Judaic view was that of Sheol. While references to an afterlife can be found throughout the Old Testament that was not the prevailing theology in Judaism. In Judaism you died and that was it. Their theology was nihilistic. The dead know nothing.

Somehow "alternatively" and that following statement had misled me to believe that this was your belief that the dead knew nothing also.

Would have been clearer if you just stuck with what you believe.

So, that dream I had was about you and my shot across the bow was not necessary for you to reconsider when in fact we are in agreement.

I can say Amen to Jesus Christ for that, being greater than my shortcomings to let me know in prophetic dreams what I am overlooking.

 

[Josheb]

Demons are a battalion of Angels that created by the Holy Trinity before humans.

Got scripture for that?

It is written in Job's book that Angels praised Lord after making the Stars and it is written in books that Saints written as Saint John the Chrysostom, Saint John from Damascus and even a newer Saint Nectarios who his life has become a movie (Man of God). This is thousands years of church tradition that most calvinists and other protestants have rejected. But is it right to reject thousands of Saints most of them gave testimony with their blood, prosecuted even from the Church that they served? I believe not. Because the Holy Bible cannot be interpretated and understood well without the help of all Saints. We have not the same Grace that they had by the Holy Spirit. We have to spent many years studying, praying and living a clean life in order to have that Grace to interpratate good the Bible. It is just the way it is, we cannot change God's will. Remember how many years the great David spent in prosecution in order to be David. After all God said it clearly: "if anyone wishes to come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross daily* and follow me". What is this cross? It is the years we have to spent in praying, studying and living a christian life. It is not easy but the Lord will see our effort and will help us.

Focus.

One thing was asked of you. ONLY one thing was asked of you. ALL that was asked of you was to provide scripture to support...

• Demons are a battalion of angels.
• Demons were created by the Holy Spirit.

I did NOT ask for your personal opinion or personal speculation or St. Chrysostom's or St. Nectarios' opinions or speculations. I did not ask anything about David or the cross, or who spent how much time studying what. I asked for scripture. Now look at you post and ask yourself, "Where is the scripture in my response to Josh? Where is the scripture answering Josh's specific question?" Do you see any scripture there?

• Where is the scripture demons are a battalion of angels?

• Where is the scripture stating demons were created by the Holy Spirit?

Please do not reply to this post until you have the scriptures and can copy and paste them exactly as written in the Bible into your post. Do not waste my time with another post like Post #44.

 

[Josheb]

Where did Jesus say hell was in the underworld?

Luke 16:19-31 KJV

Luke 16:19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: 20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, 21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

You can highlight all the scripture you want with bold-face typs but that sentence does not state hell is in the underworld. YOU may read it that way but that is not what the verse states.

I was not defending that point at all.

Then you were wasting my time with irrelevant content because the one, single, sole, solitary point I was making is that Jesus taught differently than the pagan mythologies and the Sadducean view.

You had claimed earlier that the Jews believed there is nothing after death.

If my words are ripped from all else that was posted and the specific context I explicitly stated then, yes, I can see how you ore anyone else my twist and pervert what I posted to say something like that but that is not what I said. I explicitly stated those words in the context of the Sadducean view of life after death, the older, more "mainstream," "orthodox" Judaic view. I also explicitly stated content indicating their error, content indicating affirming life after death, can be found throughout scripture.

You cherry-picked content from my post selectively, abused the post and argued something never stated, and now you are defending it.

And wasting more of my time.

The point I was making thru the rest of my post is that there is an awareness after death. Jesus said so...

And I never said otherwise. I I repeatedly Jesus taught differently. That was the whole point of the post.

As for "a god ruling the underworld", I never touched on that point at all as if disagreeing with it.

And yet it was part of the original post in dispute and content you were asked to prove.

That is your dissertation as if that is inclusive to the point you are opposing that there is an awareness after death.

No, it's your straw man argument.

Go back and re-read Post 28. Notice the sentence that says, "While references to an afterlife can be found throughout the Old Testament that was not the prevailing theology in Judaism."

References to an afterlife can be found throughout the Old Testament.​

Written right there in the post for you and everyone to read. No excuse for ignoring it. Stop defending your mistake and making me the bad guy.




Stop wasting my time.

Okay. I can admit that I read your original quote wrong.

....and wasted Josh's time,
....and defended the mistake,
....and made Josh out to be the bad guy.

Somehow "alternatively" and that following statement had misled me to believe that this was your belief that the dead knew nothing also. So, that dream I had was about you and my shot across the bow was not necessary for you to reconsider when in fact we are in agreement. I can say Amen to Jesus Christ for that, being greater than my shortcomings to let me know in prophetic dreams what I am overlooking.

I do not care. No excuses and no explanations are needed or wanted, nor are the helpful to the discussion (no matter how much they may sooth your feelings. Learn how to acknowledge your mistakes without making excuses, make amends, and get back on topic.

Would have been clearer if you just stuck with what you believe.

Riiiiggghht because I'm the bad guy here.

I was clear. I clearly stated, "...references to an afterlife can be found throughout the Old Testament...," and it was ignored.

Okay. I can admit that I read your original quote wrong.

Good.

Then let's get back to the op and stand firm against the premise demons are dead humans because there are several ways scripture tells us that is not true and cannot be so. One of them has to do with the fact pagan views of the afterlife are not what Jesus taught.
.

 

[Josheb]

nt

 

[Mr GLee]

What does any of that have to do with humans being demons?

Humans are not demons anymore than Peter was . . (evil influence) .

The lying spirit called legion works in many false prophets false apostles. one demon "legion"

Matthew 16 :22-23 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

 

[ChristB4us]

Good.

Then let's get back to the op and stand firm against the premise demons are dead humans because there are several ways scripture tells us that is not true and cannot be so.

I agree that demons are not spirits of humans that have passed on. Demons as well as unclean spirits are fallen angels.

Those who have died in sin are in hell.

Hebrews 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

2 Corinthians 6:1We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.

2 (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)

3 Giving no offence in any thing, that the ministry be not blamed:

One of them has to do with the fact pagan views of the afterlife are not what Jesus taught.

Probably best to avoid that side topic until somebody actually believes in it, brings it up.

 

[Josheb]

Those who have died in sin are in hell.

That is true, but the hell in which they are in is not the pagan hell the surrounding pagan cultures held in view.

Probably best to avoid that side topic until somebody actually believes in it, brings it up.

Then stop posting about people being in hell.

Was the opening post read?

D E M O N S​

Demons have been exacting their influence upon the human family since the fall of Adam and Eve. However, I have a bothersome problem with the view that they are the departed spirits of evil men. I find it rather strange that there is not a shred of heavenly attestation to confirm this view.

If demons are the spirits of evil men, Satan, a cosmic, extraterrestrial creature, mighty in his crafty ways, a prince among demons, must also be the spirit of some deceased, evil person..............​

Or post #2?

There is a view in Christianity that Satan and demons are chained in Hell...

Or Post # 23?

I believe by the scriptures above, Satan and his fallen angels are not in hell yet but cast down TO hell as that judgment is given to them to be executed in that great day of judgment which is the Great White Throne Judgment when hell & death and Satan & his fallen angels are cast into the lake of fire to burn forever. The chains means there is no redemption for them. Their terrible end is coming.

Because if we apply that logic to humans then dead humans are not in hell, they are only to hell.

I was not the one who brought it up. I was the one addressing what had already been posted.

Probably best to avoid that side topic until somebody actually believes in it, brings it up.

Probably best to track the evolution of the discussion, resist the impulse to blame others, and get back on topic.

Whether intended or not there are two conflicts within Post 21. Whether recognized or not, there are two conflicts within Post 21 and the subsequent posts written to defend it. The first problem is the one just cited: if fallen angels are not in hell then that necessarily implies neither are dead humans. Logically, if dead humans are not in hell, then they could be demons roaming the planet or possessing people. Although we agree (along with most other posters in the thread) demons are not humans, Post 21 insinuated that possibility. The insinuation may not have been intended or recognized, but the implication is very real given the premise of "to" not being "in." It may not have been intended or recognized but it was you who brought it up.

And my commentary of Jesus' teaching(s) being substantively different than that of the surrounding cultures' views addressed that implication, addressed it collaboratively, and addressed it op-relevantly.

So let me recommend something. Several posts contain an off-topic baiting, blaming, responsibility-abdicating, and most importantly unnecessary comment. I've listed some of them below. Look them up. Verify it, if desired. One possible solution is very easy: write the posts as intedned..... and then review it. The word "you" is often a tell-tale sign. Delete the line that accuses others and ignores self-responsibility .

Probably best to avoid posting that line .

You are forgetting.............

.....you can always read those references by relying on Jesus Christ to help you understand what is prophesied.

Would have been clearer if you just stuck with what you believe.

Probably best to avoid that side topic until somebody actually believes in it, brings it up.

Probably best never to mention another poster. Resist the impulse. Look at Posts 42 and 43. Both were excellent (count the number of times the word "you" is used) as far as their content goes, but they have nothing to do with the point being made: Jesus taught something different. We, therefore, know posting without the snotty commentary is possible.

So....

...returning to the topic of discussion.....

Dead people in hell cannot be demons because while the hell of the pagan mythologies might allow for such a premise the "hell" Jesus taught was much different. Any Christian concept of hell similar to those pagan views (intended or not) is incorrect, and incorrect for many reasons but relevant to this op it is germane because dead people do not come back from an underworld ruled by lesser gods that do not exist. Dead people do not come back from a nihilistic end like the one the Sadducean view that does not exist. Jesus is reported to use words like "hell" and "hades" but he was not affirming the pagan mythologies.


Jesus taught something different.


Amen?

 

[ChristB4us]

That is true, but the hell in which they are in is not the pagan hell the surrounding pagan cultures held in view.

Then stop posting about people being in hell.

People that died in sin of never having believed in Jesus Christ are in hell.

What prompted your topic was in response to my comment that God sent the demons TO hell but they are not in hell; sort of like judging them as sending them in that direction but reserved in chains as it is inevitable, but they are not in that lake of fire yet.

Was the opening post read?

At a glance for the main points;

Or post #2?

It was a small post by another poster than the one in the OP and so I disagree to Satan & demons are chained IN hell. You & QVQ "liked" it.

Or Post # 23?

Nope. Looked at the post now by Mr. Glee and I can agree with your comment in which Mr. Glee replied to, but Mr. Glee would have to clarify his position more. He may be mixing scriptures about the fallen state of angels with wayward believers that have gone astray in Jude but not sure.

Because if we apply that logic to humans then dead humans are not in hell, they are only to hell.

Is there any thing in scripture to suggests that the souls of the unbelievers are not in hell as opposing when Jesus had testified to the rich man that is in hell and the beggar named Lazarus that is in Abraham's bosom aka Paradise?

But I am trying to comprehend why you would think that what has happens to fallen angels has to be the same for humans?

I was not the one who brought it up. I was the one addressing what had already been posted.

Well, due to different topics and exchanges in our discussions and not just with others, you did seem to have forgotten what had prompted your response as if I was addressing humans being in hell when God cast Satan and his fallen angels TO hell which suggest the direction per judgment... which I believe you had agreed to in part.

Are you saying that Satan & the fallen angels are in hell but they can be anywhere else?

Not sure how Satan can be walking the earth as stated in the Book of Job twice if he was in hell.

Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them. 7 And the Lord said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

Job 2:1Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the Lord. 2 And the Lord said unto Satan, From whence comest thou? And Satan answered the Lord, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

Probably best to track the evolution of the discussion, resist the impulse to blame others, and get back on topic.

Resisting..... resisting.... probably poorly. Maybe I should just drop the discussion with you then. Until another time, God be willing....

 

[Josheb]

Resisting..... resisting.... probably poorly. Maybe I should just drop the discussion with you then. Until another time, God be willing....

I had a recent episode while walking my dog in which my dog stopped by a mailbox and was sniffing around as dogs are want to do. Stuck in the ground right next to the mailbox was a sign asking people not to let their dog poop in the owner's yard. The woman next door was blowing leaves off her driveway and yelled at me, "They don't like people allowing their dogs to poop in their yard!" as if I couldn't see the sign, read it, or understand English. I calmly, politely, and respectfully replied, "She's not pooping and, yes, I have read the sign," to which she replied, "And it's a rule I agree with. You shouldn't let your dog poop in their yard, or mine either." And then she abruptly asked, "Are you from around here? Do you live in this neighborhood?"

"Yes. Why does that matter?"

"You don't care about others. You're selfish and think you can do whatever you want to do."​

"Do you mean like yelling at people behaving responsibly and who haven't done anything wrong?"

"I don't like you and think you're a horrible person!"​

"I suspect you don't like my behaving like you and thereby holding a mirror of your own behavior up to you for you to see yourself."

(silence)

"God bless you."​

"You, too."
.

Maybe I should just drop the discussion with you then. Until another time, God be willing....

Maybe.

But because this is not the first time we've had this sort of exchange, and you keep resisting the offers to return to the topic at hand I suspect the problem will continue. I won't ignore it anymore. If you keep the posts about the posts, then you and I will never have any problem discussing a topic. We may still disagree from time to time, but you won't read my holding up the mirror of your own behavior to you and you losing your composure posting unnecessary comments like, "Maybe I should drop the discussion with you until...." because what you should do is either get back on topic and stick solely to the topic of post nothing.

Everyone with any experience in internet discussion boards understands the value of silence.

Including me.

If you do not like what happened, then do not do it to others. Your post should have ended with.....

Are you saying that Satan & the fallen angels are in hell but they can be anywhere else?

​

Not sure how Satan can be walking the earth as stated in the Book of Job twice if he was in hell.​

​

Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them. 7 And the Lord said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.​

​

Job 2:1Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the Lord. 2 And the Lord said unto Satan, From whence comest thou? And Satan answered the Lord, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.​

...because that is relevant, topical, and I am happy to address that concern.... except for the fact I have already addressed it in Post #36, which I have asked you to re-read. The answer lies in the possibility of one being bound and still being able to roam in subjugation or the possibility hell transcends the earth such that those currently bound to/in hell can roam the earth, or the more likely explanation hell is not a specific locale like the pagans wrongly imagined it.

So now I am being asked a question unnecessarily; a question already asked and answered - but the answers ignored.

And everyone but you is the bad guy.

Nope. Looked at the post now by Mr. Glee and I can agree with your comment in which Mr. Glee replied to, but Mr. Glee would have to clarify his position more. He may be mixing scriptures about the fallen state of angels with wayward believers that have gone astray in Jude but not sure.

That does not mean you get to tell Glee how he should live his life.

And when the exact same thing you did to us is done to you then the you get defensive and more off-topic instead of making amends by returning solely to the topic and keeping the posts about the posts.

But I am trying to comprehend why you would think that what has happens to fallen angels has to be the same for humans.

I do not think the two are synonymous other then the final end of both is the same: the fiery lake so lethal even death itself is destroyed. But that has nothing to do with demons being dead humans.

Well, due to different topics and exchanges in our discussions and not just with others, you did seem to have forgotten....

No.

Due to you not correctly tracking the various germane and salient aspects of the discussion you assumed something about me that you should never have assumed, and I say that based on actual evidence of your own words posted in the op, NOT based on some assumption in my imagination. I gave you the solution, and I did so in good will and good faith. You could have worded in a more affirming and collaborative way = use "remember" instead of "you forget," and I demonstrated that very standard in that post. I did not accuse you of forgetting something. I invited you to remember.

You crapped on my olive branch.

And now you are still defending yourself for the indefensible.

You're like the lady who thought she could judge strangers. If I am guilty of anything it is violating Romans 12:17. You have got to stop baiting others with whom you have covenanted to keep the posts about the posts and not the posters, and the evidence you now have for the beauty of that standard is how you feel when others do it to you.

Resisting..... resisting.... probably poorly. Maybe I should just drop the discussion with you then. Until another time, God be willing....

I'll see you in the next op where I trust improvement will be evident in both our posts .


@Buff Scott Jr. is correct. Demons are not dead humans returning from the grave and we can agree with him for a variety of firmly scripture-based reasons.

 

[turbomaniac]

Got scripture for that?

Focus.

One thing was asked of you. ONLY one thing was asked of you. ALL that was asked of you was to provide scripture to support...

• Demons are a battalion of angels.
• Demons were created by the Holy Spirit.

I did NOT ask for your personal opinion or personal speculation or St. Chrysostom's or St. Nectarios' opinions or speculations. I did not ask anything about David or the cross, or who spent how much time studying what. I asked for scripture. Now look at you post and ask yourself, "Where is the scripture in my response to Josh? Where is the scripture answering Josh's specific question?" Do you see any scripture there?

• Where is the scripture demons are a battalion of angels?

• Where is the scripture stating demons were created by the Holy Spirit?

Please do not reply to this post until you have the scriptures and can copy and paste them exactly as written in the Bible into your post. Do not waste my time with another post like Post #44.

The Jews remained so entangled with the "scriptures" so they killed God. I never said the Angels-demons made from the holy spirit, I said they lost the Grace from the Holy Spirit, as heretic humans lost the Grace from the Holy Spirit.

Keep reading the Bible and you will find the answer you are looking

 

[Wordsmith]

There is a view in Christianity that Satan and demons are chained in Hell...

There is but it is error!