Coming Against Reformed Theology

[CrowCross]

Didn't you listen to the video?

I've listened to several videos.

As I said....Here's a video that explains some of it. Some of it makes you go hmmmmmmm while some of it makes you go eh.

 

[Josheb]

So pick the worst case scenario and say if God ordained that to happen, then He is a monster.

And what if God decided to judge and kill millions of Jews?

I think there is a tendency to minimize or ignore the true state of ourselves apart from Christ. Without Jesus we are all dead sinners headed for an inevitable destruction. Any "worst case scenario," like the holocaust, is simply an early demise. No one likes to read me say this, but all God has done is take out the trash. When my trash gets stinky, I take out to the curb, too. Apart from Christ that's what we are. Apart from Christ we're nothing more than animated corpses plodding through time in what we incorrectly call "life," breathing air and pumping blood. The reality is, apart from Christ, we are rotting, decaying every single day. Were it not for the fact that God still values the trash all humanity has become not a single person would ever be saved from being trash. We think more importantly of ourselves than we ought. It's called hubris. It is the problem to be solved.

So, the Monster takes out the trash from time to time. So what?

Oh, well, let's trash Calvinism!




Have at it but Cal-ragging serves only to reveal a profound lack of understanding and evidence the problem to be solved.

 

[donadams]

@Mercy_Shown

When Reformed theology is attacked on forums, I can't help but think of the church at Corinth and Paul's first letter of admonition to them. Before he can even begin to deal with the specifics he must defend himself against their immaturity and unChristian behavior, and divisiveness. There was infighting over who followed who. 1 Cor 1:10-13 I appeal to you brothers, by the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree, that there be no divisions among you,but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgement. For it has been reported to me by Chloe's people that there is quarreling among you,my brothers. What I mean is that each one of you says, "I follow Paul," or "I follow Apollos," or "I follow "Cephas," or "I follow Christ."

When Reformed theology is attacked eventually, if not at the very beginning, an accusation of following Calvin is made, followed by an attack on his person, which then by extension falls on the Reformed collectively. And as a counter to following Calvin it is sometimes said "I follow the Bible!" as though they had no teachers. Which is the very same thing we see in the above quote from 1 Cor.

The implication in the accusation of following Calvin is that all that is in Reformed theology, was the invention of Calvin alone, when in fact it began long before his lifetime, took fire in the lifetime of Luther, and expanded to different countries during Calvin's lifetime and beyond. Calvin was a proliferate writer and teacher with the precision of the lawyers mind, but his writings of the Reformation era are not the only ones we have.

This reductionism, and the further reduction to TULIP, have made the theology a likely and easy target, given the looseness of doctrinal teaching in a great many of our churches. In addition the fact that one form of free will or another, in choosing Christ, and that choosing being the basis on which salvation is said to be applied, it has become next to impossible for today's believers who began their Christian walk in that doctrine, to accept anything else or even understand it. They have been counting on their choice. So they recoil and then attack the doctrines expressed in TULIP with no knowledge of the theology that is Reformed theology. Doctrines are one thing, theology another. And in Reformed theology, the key word here is theology. It is from a view of God that the doctrines in it come. It is God centered.

The view of God in Reformed theology is quite different from the view of God that is found in non-Reformed. It has, in fact, been said in a post that we cannot learn who God is from the OT, because there are contradictions of who He is in the OT. What was pointed to as contradictions is His sovereignty and His omniscience, even His being immutable, being contradicted in verses that say He "remembers", "regretted," places where He appears to change His mind etc. And these types of arguments are used to argue against Reformed theology's view of God in arriving at the doctrines in TULIP--the doctrines of grace in RT.

What happens is two theologies (two different views of God), attempt to reconcile or refute doctrine. One adheres strictly to its theology to interpret scripture----who God says He is in both testaments, as they are both the same God. The other side simply debates doctrine without a Bible based theology, but is a simply a view of God primarily based on the NT covenant relationship, (though it is possible they do not realize this) but not on who God actually is as self revealed. Instead of recognizing that the relationship God has with believers in the NT, is a covenant relationship, and that is why it sometimes appears to be that God changed. For instance there is belief in His omniscience, omnipotence, omnipresence, sovereignty, but then the interpretations of scripture given by those refuting RT do not consider it, but run ahead to what feels right or what they already believe. Instead, all the complex questions are resolved by their perception of God, such as God would never violate man's free will, therefore He must have sovereignly chosen to give Him free will in choosing, whether by equal grace to understand scripture is given to all and then can be accepted or rejected, or by denying the total depravity doctrine, and that is why not all people are saved. The rebuttal to Reformed theology becomes, if God chose who to save and did not give everyone equal opportunity to become saved, that would be evil and not love, therefore He did not do that. All kinds of things are manufactured to get around the facts of scripture as interpreted through who God is that are considered alien to their image of God. None of it based on what God actually says about Himself, but who He is imagined to be.

When it is said God ordains all things, up comes the accusation that would make God a monster who ordains that ----go to any worst case scenario, from your neighbor being hit by a bus, to a tornado sweeping through a community, to Hitler. Ignore all that we see in the OT that we don't like, and there would be something wrong with us if we did like it, that shows God doing as He pleases to whom He pleases. Always choosing and always for His purposes. The focus is on how His purposes affect us, as if that were the whole picture. As though we are the center of God. And the certain hope clung to is--"I will go to heaven, not hell."

So pick the worst case scenario and say if God ordained that to happen, then He is a monster. That is intended to be thrown at Reformed theology and those who agree with it to whatever degree, but it is an arrow aimed straight at God. And it is saying, in essence, that if that is who God is, I would never worship Him. Never for a second pausing to consider the one who says it may be wrong? His book is filled with His declarations of the elect, the chosen, the ordained to salvation, in regards to the believer.

But that charge against Reformed theology fails to solve the issue, for whatever worst case scenario is used, still happened under the all seeing eye of God, who has the power to stop whatever it is, and stands back watching, not lifting a finger, lest He violate the will of the creature. And also is forgotten that it was we who rebelled against God and do so minute by minute, quite pleased with ourselves as we wallow in the mire of sin. And all that evil is a direct result of that. And for the Christian we forget that we are still living in this fallen world and its effects, forgotten is the counsel of God that says: Romans 8:16-25 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs---heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him. For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us. For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies, For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience.

Big Picture!!

I do not feel equipped to do an adequate explanation of all that is involved in God's decrees and ordinations in Reformed theology when it comes to every specific, such as a question such as Did God ordain that Hitler would kill millions of Jews? Or, did God ordain a particular individual to be murdered? I have my own views on such things and could even tackle it, but I do not consider that I have the articulation skills to do it justice. So I welcome input on that from those who do and I know there are some on the forum who do have those skills.

How can truth be reformed?
Truth is of divine origin, & immutable!
It tantamount to saying God can be reformed!

 

[Arial]

How can truth be reformed?
Truth is of divine origin, & immutable!
It tantamount to saying God can be reformed!

You say that because the Reformation was an attempt to take the corrupt and unbiblical RCC back to the apostolic doctrines of the Bible. The RCC would have none it. The reformers were as much of a threat to their man made religion and doctrines of men as Jesus was to the hypocritical Pharisees. The Pharisees had our Lord killed. The RCC just pronounces and empty and useless sentence of hell on dissenters, now that they no longer are allowed to kill the gospel messengers.

 

[donadams]

Christ was sent!
None of the so called reformers were ever sent or had any authority to change the revealed truth!

 

[donadams]

According to scripture when was the time of reformation?

 

[Josheb]

How can truth be reformed?

Red herring. No one has said truth can be reformed.

Truth is of divine origin, & immutable!

Yep.

It tantamount to saying God can be reformed!

Yep.

 

[prism]

Christ was sent!
None of the so called reformers were ever sent or had any authority to change the revealed truth!

None changed 'revealed truth' they only exposed the false practices and teachings of 'mother church'.

 

[donadams]

Red herring. No one has said truth can be reformed.

Yep.

Yep.

Then what is reformed theology?

 

[donadams]

None changed 'revealed truth' they only exposed the false practices and teachings of 'mother church'.

The apostles never taught the five sola’s

 

[donadams]

None changed 'revealed truth' they only exposed the false practices and teachings of 'mother church'.

Not possible!

Jn 16:13 the holy apostolic church is lead into all truth then teaches us! Matt 28:19

 

[donadams]

None changed 'revealed truth' they only exposed the false practices and teachings of 'mother church'.

Yes holy mother church!

Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

 

[Josheb]

Then what is reformed theology?

Trolling


You've had many, many conversations with us in which the reason and necessity for reform was explained to you AND the RCC response eventually reforming its doctrines and practices. Disingenuously posting as if you don't have a history here and you do not already know the answer to your own question is dishonest. Expect to be ignored.

 

[donadams]

None changed 'revealed truth' they only exposed the false practices and teachings of 'mother church'.

The just shall live by faith!

And by obedience to Jesus Christ in His apostolic church that has authority to bind Christians on earth to believe all that Christ has revealed and the apostolic church teaches! Matt 16:18-19 & 18:17-18 Matt 28:19
Being led into all truth by the spirit of truth! Jn 16:13

 

[donadams]

Trolling


You've had many, many conversations with us in which the reason and necessity for reform was explained to you AND the RCC response eventually reforming its doctrines and practices. Disingenuously posting as if you don't have a history here and you do not already know the answer to your own question is dishonest. Expect to be ignored.

You said

Red herring. No one has said truth can be reformed.

Then you say reforming its doctrines

Doctrine dogma truth same!

 

[prism]

The apostles never taught the five sola’s

They revealed five Solas through Scripture. Example: faith alone...

Romans 3:28 ESV
For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.

 

[prism]

Not possible!

Jn 16:13 the holy apostolic church is lead into all truth then teaches us! Matt 28:19

When a body drifts away from the Scriptures, apostasy is very possible.

 

[prism]

Yes holy mother church!

Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

Gal 4:26 is referring to the heavenly Jerusalem, not the one Rome that is in Italy

 

[prism]

The just shall live by faith!

And by obedience to Jesus Christ in His apostolic church that has authority to bind Christians on earth to believe all that Christ has revealed and the apostolic church teaches! Matt 16:18-19 & 18:17-18 Matt 28:19
Being led into all truth by the spirit of truth! Jn 16:13

You're a bit late to be speaking about obedience...

Romans 3:9-12,19-20 ESV
What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, [10] as it is written: "None is righteous, no, not one; [11] no one understands; no one seeks for God. [12] All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one." [19] Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. [20] For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

Our only obedience is through faith in God's Son.

 

[donadams]

They revealed five Solas through Scripture. Example: faith alone...

Romans 3:28 ESV
For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.

Truth is from God not men, Christ taught the apostles in person theee years and commanded them to teach what He revealed and they never taught the sola’s!

scripture never says faith alone, except James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

NOT BY FAITH ALONE!

The five sola’s REJECT the necessity of baptismal regeneration by water AND the Spirit!!! Jn 3:5 Mk 16:16 Matt 28:19 acts 2:38-39 acts 22-16
1 cor 12:12 gal 3:27 1 pet 3:20-21

The five Protestant sola’s reject the father and the Holy Spirit!
And the most blessed trinity!

The five Protestant sola’s violate the law of non-contradiction:

If you accept the sola of the Bible alone you must know that scripture upholds the authority of the church and the church explicitly condemned “faith alone”!

Luther quote: a man is justified by “faith alone” but that faith is not alone!

Then it’s not “faith alone”!
It cannot be both!
Total contradiction:


Faith Alone:

Truth / doctrine Jn 14:6
Sacrifice / sacraments Jn 1:16-17 Jn 1:29
Christ is in His person is our salvation Lk 2:30

How can it be “faith alone” Christ is not only a doctrine or set of beliefs but He is our Passover sacrifice and He is our salvation, His person, Lk 2:30 I have seen my Salvation!
We must have union with Christ by faith and baptism.

“Faith alone” condemned by sacred scripture!

Deut 6:4 love of God
Matt 19:17 commandments
Matt 16:25 lose you’re life / rev 12:11
Matt 28:19 faith & baptism
Matt 24:13 endure
Mk 16:16 faith & baptism
Jn 3:5 water & the spirit
Jn 15:4 abide in Christ
acts 2:38-39 repentance & baptism
acts 8:36-38 faith & baptism
acts 22:16 name of the Lord & baptism
rom 10:10 faith & confession
1 cor 13:2 faith & charity
1 cor 13:13 faith, hope, & charity
1 cor 16:22 love of Jesus Christ
Phil 1:29 faith and suffering rom 8:17 2 Timothy 2:12
1 thes 1:3 faith, love, patience / 2 thes 1:4 / 1 Tim 6:11 /
James 2:24 faith & works
Heb 6:12 faith & patience / rev 13:10
Rev 2:19 works, charity, service, faith, patience
Rev 12:17 testimony of Jesus & commandments
Rev 14:12 commandments & patience

Rev 12:11 over cane by the blood of the Lamb not by “faith alone”

Three things are eternal! 1 cor 13:13

Faith:
Hope:
Charity:

1 cor 13:2 even all faith without charity (Deut 6:4) avails nothing!

NOTHING!

“Faith alone” is a false gospel!

Grace alone:

Mk 16:16 faith and baptism!
Jn 3:5 water and the spirit! Ez 36:25-27
Acts 2:38-39 the promise of the father, sacred oath is a sacrament!

Not grace alone but, grace thru baptism of water and the spirit, and a new heart full of love of God!

Matt 5:7 merciful receive mercy
Lk 7:47 forgiven by love
1 pet 4:8 charity covers sins
Jn 20:21-23 sins forgiven

Acts 22:15 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Faith alone in Christ alone thru grace alone without “charity” avails nothing! 1 cor 13:2

Christ alone:

John 5:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Romans 4:24
But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

Not Christ alone must also believe on the Father who sent Christ!
Scripture alone: Matt 16:18-19 mark 16:14-16 Matt 5:14 Matt 28:19 Matt 18:17 Jn 20:21-23 acts 1:8 acts 2:42 acts 8:31 1 Tim 3:15 all oppose scripture alone!


Glory to God alone:

Christ received Glory

John 17:1
These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:

Ephesians 3:16
That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;


Christians receive glory:
1 cor 2:7
rom 8:30
2 thes 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints…
2 thes 2:14
1 pet 1:7 praise and honour and glory
1 pet 5:4 And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.
1 pet 5:10
Romans 2:10
But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

Jn 17:22 22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

Now if one sola be false they all be false! Amen!