Colossians 1:17

[Papa Smurf]

Colossians 1
17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

Greetings Brothers and Sisters, I would love to hear your thoughts about the 2nd half of v17, the part that is in bold above (what you believe about that half of the verse and why, and perhaps what you believe concerning the scope of it too).

Thanks everyone

God bless you!!

--Papa Smurf
p.s. - likewise..................

Hebrews 1​

The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of His nature, upholding all things by His powerful word. ​

.

 

[Fred]

Colossians 1:17
And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. (KJV)

Concerning the word synistēmi ('consist' in the KJV) in Colossians 1:17, Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament reads, "Colossians 1:17...(cf. Lightfoot on Colossians, the passage cited)." (page 605)
https://biblehub.com/thayers/4921.htm

This is what Lightfoot affirms: In him is no before or after. He is preexistent and self-existent before all the worlds. And in him, as the binding and sustaining power, universal nature coheres and exists.
https://www.preceptaustin.org/colossians_-_j_b_lightfoot

Just in case there might be any forced confusion posed by some, here is how 'self-existent' is properly defined:
existing independently of any cause, as God.
https://www.dictionary.com/browse/self-existent?s=t

 

[Papa Smurf]

.......in Him, as the binding and sustaining power ....... universal nature coheres and exists.
https://www.preceptaustin.org/colossians_-_j_b_lightfoot

Thanks brother I'd love to hear what you think of Lightfoot's commentary (which I believe is excellent and concise), IOW, more about what it means to you (all of the things that the Lord Jesus is doing not only for us, but for all of Creation, about how we/all of Creation is bound together and sustained by Him past, present and ongoing, and what, if any, thoughts that you have about Him accomplishing this UNFATHOMABLE work during the time that He lived among us, 2,000+ years ago).

God bless you!!

--Papa Smurf

 

[Fred]

Our wonderful Triune God alone is the Creator. I worship Him in thankfulness and awe.
I owe my life and my salvation unto Him, and I praise Him for His glory for He alone is worthy.

 

[Carbon]

Colossians 1
17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.
.

Greetings Brothers and Sisters, I would love to hear your thoughts about the 2nd half of v17, the part that is in bold above (what you believe about that half of the verse and why, and perhaps what you believe concerning the scope of it too).

Thanks everyone

God bless you!!

--Papa Smurf
p.s. - likewise..................

Hebrews 1​

The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of His nature, upholding all things by His powerful word. ​

.

Everything is held together by his infinite power, he is not only the foundation but the preserver of all things.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. John 1:1.

Believers have no need to worry. Not only has He chosen you for salvation, He did His work of regeneration and will hold you by His power.

 

[Papa Smurf]

Everything is held together by his infinite power, he is not only the foundation but the preserver of all things.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. John 1:1.

Thanks brother. Interestingly, I was reminded of this verse and this thought (that "in Him, all things hold together") when I was re-watching a Star Wars movie recently, where the "force" is spoken of in similar terms (specifically that "it binds the universe together").

Thus, the reason for this thread, to talk about ALL that is meant in Colossians 1:17b (that Jesus has and continues to hold (bind and sustain) all of Creation together.

--Papa Smurf

 

[Fred]

Thanks brother. Interestingly, I was reminded of this verse and this thought (that "in Him, all things hold together") when I was re-watching a Star Wars movie recently, when the "force" was spoken of in similar terms (that "it binds the universe together", or something along those lines).

Thus the reason for this thread, to talk about ALL that it means (that Jesus has and continues to hold (bind and sustain) all of Creation together.

--Papa Smurf

He binds our broken hearts (Psalm 147:3) and sustains us in our adversity as well (Psalm 55:22).

 

[Carbon]

Thanks brother. Interestingly, I was reminded of this verse and this thought (that "in Him, all things hold together") when I was re-watching a Star Wars movie recently, where the "force" is spoken of in similar terms (specifically that "it binds the universe together").

Thus, the reason for this thread, to talk about ALL that is meant in Colossians 1:17b (that Jesus has and continues to hold (bind and sustain) all of Creation together.

--Papa Smurf

Yes, God is amazing. Thankfully he holds us by His power because If he didn't I know I wouldn't last very long.

Also, there is a passage in scripture about the Spirit being in everything, or else it wouldn't exist. Some things are too wonderful for us to understand. Ill search for that passage, But consider these for now:

Psalm 145,
16 You open your hand;
you satisfy the desire of every living thing.
17 The Lord is righteous in all his ways
and kind in all his works.

Psalm 104,
27 These all look to you,
to give them their food in due season.
28 When you give it to them, they gather it up;
when you open your hand, they are filled with good things.
29 When you hide your face, they are dismayed;
when you take away their breath, they die
and return to their dust.
30 When you send forth your Spirit,[a] they are created,
and you renew the face of the ground.

 

[ChristB4us]

Everything is held together by his infinite power, he is not only the foundation but the preserver of all things.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. John 1:1.

Believers have no need to worry. Not only has He chosen you for salvation, He did His work of regeneration and will hold you by His power.

@Papa Smurf & @Fred

Saved believers living in unrepentant sins should worry in missing out on being partakers of the firstfruits of the resurrection at the pre great tribulation rapture event when God shall judge His House first, but they need not worry about losing salvation because He will finish His work in those left behind for not being ready as not found abiding in Him & His words as His disciples, to be resurrected after the great tribulation.

Revelation 2:18 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass; 19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first. 20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.

21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. 22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. 23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works. 24 But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden.

25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.

 

[fastfredy0]

Colossians 1:17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

• it speaks to God's aseity
• it speaks to God's Omnipotence, Omnipresence and Omniscience ... all powerful by creating all things, all present/knowing as by holding them together
• Used incorrectly use to assert only the 2nd person created all things
• speaks to God's preservation and providence
• ; by the same power that creatures have their beings, they have their motions: they have not only a being by his powerful command, but they have their minutely motion by his powerful concurrence. Nothing can act without the almighty influx of God, no more than it can exist without the creative word of God. It is true indeed, the ordering of all motions to his holy ends, is an act of wisdom; but the motion itself, whereby those ends are attained, is a work of his power. Stephen Charnock
• one of many verses supporting hard determinism
• speaks to God's transcendence
• speaks to the Spirit in control of our lives
• dispels the idea of dualism
• dispels the idea of deism and Arminian free will -No created object has the power within itself to sustain itself (including its own mind) or the power within itself to produce any effect in another object. If it has the power within itself to sustain itself, then by definition it would not require God to continue to exist –it would have the power of self-existence, and thus an independent existence from God. Author unknown
• proof that God is the First Cause
• speaks to God’s Metaphysical Relationship to Creation
• portends to the idea that if God were to suddenly not exist, so would all creation
• speaks to God's goodness
• speaks to evil always being in the control of God
• To try to say that God can cause the continued existence (Acts 17:28a, Colossians 1:17, Hebrews 1:3, Romans 11:36, Job 34:14-15) of something without causing the way in which it continues to exist is as absurd as saying that God could have created blindly or randomly, that somehow something other than God's power could have dictated the result of God's power. This is 100% illogical and unbiblical. God is the only ultimate power and that fact didn't change after God created man. You are not an ultimate power which gets to dictate the way in which God's power sustains you. You do not wield the sustaining power of God with your almighty free will. You are a created power which exists and functions by the ultimate will and power of God. “Free will” wants to somehow say that God can determine to sustain the existence of something in a way or a state that He does not determine. Something cannot be free from God when that thing requires the very control of God to exist in the first place. Josh Sketo
• beside that, the verse doesn't have much to say

 

[ChristB4us]

Also, there is a passage in scripture about the Spirit being in everything, or else it wouldn't exist.

The Spirit may be involved in resurrecting the unbelieving dead to be judged at the Great White Throne Judgment but He is not in them for why they are cast into the lake of fire. So the Spirit is not in everything.

But in according to our faith, Jesus Christ being in us and our bodies are the temples of the holy Spirit is why we are not to look for the Spirit outside of us by way of visitations with signs and lying wonders because that is where the spirit of the antichrist is at.

Antichrist means instead of Christ and since Jesus is the Christ and the Bridegroom the indwelling holy Spirit would never take our eyes off of the Son to Himself for any reason whatsoever so we can avoid the spirits of the antichrist.

 

[Carbon]

The Spirit may be involved in resurrecting the unbelieving dead to be judged at the Great White Throne Judgment but He is not in them for why they are cast into the lake of fire. So the Spirit is not in everything.

It's nice to see you are a thinker. But that subject is debatable.

But in according to our faith, Jesus Christ being in us and our bodies are the temples of the holy Spirit is why we are not to look for the Spirit outside of us by way of visitations with signs and lying wonders because that is where the spirit of the antichrist is at.

Okay.

Antichrist means instead of Christ and since Jesus is the Christ and the Bridegroom the indwelling holy Spirit would never take our eyes off of the Son to Himself for any reason whatsoever so we can avoid the spirits of the antichrist.

Okay.

 

[ChristB4us]

It's nice to see you are a thinker. But that subject is debatable.

How can it be debatable?

How can the Spirit be in the resurrected dead at the Great white Throne Judgment if their names are not written in the Book of Life for why they are cast into the lake of fire?

The Spirit is not going to be living in eternal torment.

So I reckon I am not understanding what you mean for how that can be debatable. Care to explain?

 

[Carbon]

How can it be debatable?

Not sure I want to get involved in that subject.

How can the Spirit be in the resurrected dead at the Great white Throne Judgment if their names are not written in the Book of Life for why they are cast into the lake of fire?

The Spirit is not going to be living in eternal torment.

Would you explain what hell is exactly?

So I reckon I am not understanding what you mean for how that can be debatable. Care to explain?

I'd be curious about how you understand a few things first.

 

[ChristB4us]

Not sure I want to get involved in that subject.

Would you explain what hell is exactly?

I'd be curious about how you understand a few things first.

Are you discerning "hell" from scripture about saved believers that do not do as He says as going there that has been derived from the Greek word "geena" or "gehenna"? That is not pertaining to the afterlife hell or hades but to that hell on earth for not abiding in Him and His words.

Not all English word "hell" is from "geena" but from another Greek word pertaining to the afterlife.

Strong's concordance is in error for adding that definition about it also applying to the afterlife when Gehenna has never been applied before. It always involve a place on earth whereby originally as a refuse dump site outside the City of Jerusalem where later on it was applied differently by the Lord as meaning the valley of slaughter which is also a place on earth.

Jeremiah 7:32 Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that it shall no more be called Tophet, nor the valley of the son of Hinnom, but the valley of slaughter: for they shall bury in Tophet, till there be no place.

So are you aware of this or maybe not for why you are wondering about that kind of hell that believers will be coming out of?

Matthew 18:21 Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? 22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.

23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. 24 And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents. 25 But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made. 26 The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. 27 Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt. 28 But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest. 29 And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. 30 And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt. 31 So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.

32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me: 33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee? 34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

That is why we need his help to forgive even our enemies because they may get saved one day or if they are brothers, they may repent and He brings them Home and there will not be any quarrel among the brethren but peace at the Marriage Supper table in Heaven. Otherwise...

 

[fastfredy0]

The Spirit may be involved in resurrecting the unbelieving dead to be judged at the Great White Throne Judgment but He is not in them for why they are cast into the lake of fire. So the Spirit is not in everything.

I would argue that the Spirit is in everyone including those in Hell based on Col. 1:17 And He Himself existed and is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. [His is the controlling, cohesive force of the universe.] AMP When it says the Spirit Indwells us that would refer to "indwells us for our benefit" IMO. Lot's of verses saying the Spirit is helping those In Christ.
Those in hell have the Spirit indwelling them in that the Spirit keeps them alive to suffer torment. (" and in Him all things hold together.")

I suppose one should define what they mean by Indwelled by the Spirit. I believe all of God is always in every atom in every moment of time right now...that time does not confine Him, nor the fact someone is in hell.

 

[ChristB4us]

I would argue that the Spirit is in everyone including those in Hell based on Col. 1:17 And He Himself existed and is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. [His is the controlling, cohesive force of the universe.] AMP When it says the Spirit Indwells us that would refer to "indwells us for our benefit" IMO. Lot's of verses saying the Spirit is helping those In Christ.
Those in hell have the Spirit indwelling them in that the Spirit keeps them alive to suffer torment. (" and in Him all things hold together.")

I suppose one should define what they mean by Indwelled by the Spirit. I believe all of God is always in every atom in every moment of time right now...that time does not confine Him, nor the fact someone is in hell.

For believers, we are warned not to grieve the Holy Spirit per Ephesians 4:30. Indeed, He makes intercessions for us with groanings He cannot utter testify to grief He suffers but unable to express Romans 8:26-27 KJV should we be sowing to the flesh in reaping corruption & defiling the temple of God. 1 Corinthians 3:10-17 & 1 Corinthains 6:19-20

How fair is that for the Person of the Holy Spirit to be in sinners in hell & the future lake of fire?

In the Old Testament, there was a concern under the Old Covenant that God could take the Holy Spirit from those saints fallen into sin.

Psalm 51:10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me. 11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me. 12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.

That cannot happen under the New Covenant for why we are warned not to grieve the Holy Spirit.

I understand your application but something is not quite aligning properly. We prophesy in part & know in part and maybe this is just one of those truths we will not know until we see Him face to face, but right now... I just cannot see the Holy Spirit in sinners in hell or the lake of fire for what He suffers within us as saved believers today.

 

[fastfredy0]

How fair is that for the Person of the Holy Spirit to be in sinners in hell & the future lake of fire?

I don't think it's a question of "fairness". It's a question of: Do the attributes of God attest to Him being in Hell? Does God uphold people in Hell? Col. 1:17 says God upholds all things which would include people in Hell. For God to know all things He would have to be in Hell to have knowledge of all things.

In the Old Testament, there was a concern under the Old Covenant that God could take the Holy Spirit from those saints fallen into sin.

Well, that is a valid point. I said that my guess is that when God says He indwells saints it refers to His benefiting them as opposed to indwelling (upholding) those in hell who He does not benefit.
Technically, God being omnipresent, the Spirit is found in everything. “Indwelling” refers to being present to “benefit” the person the is indwelt. Chafer, Lewis Sperry. The Collected Works of Lewis Sperry Chafer - Seven books in one. Jawbone Digital. Kindle Edition.
Now, it's quite possible that Chafer is wrong too (fallacy of Authority)

I understand your application but something is not quite aligning properly.

Well, you may be right. Again, a definition of INDWELLING would be a foundation for discussion. I define INDWELLING as "present with". I think the Spirit is "present with" those in Hell. INDWELLING in believers has a special emphasis and I take it that this means "present with to benefit". I don't have proof.

We prophesy in part & know in part and maybe this is just one of those truths we will not know until we see Him face to face, but right now.

Total agreement ... it's difficult to understand the transcendent One.

 

[ChristB4us]

I don't think it's a question of "fairness". It's a question of: Do the attributes of God attest to Him being in Hell? Does God uphold people in Hell? Col. 1:17 says God upholds all things which would include people in Hell. For God to know all things He would have to be in Hell to have knowledge of all things.

Something is off here. It is almost sounds like "If God so powerful, can He create a rock He cannot lift?"

I believe that God is omnipresence and omniscience but that does not mean the Holy Spirit is the modem for how the Triune God knows or actually does everything. Let us look at your earlier comment again.

I would argue that the Spirit is in everyone including those in Hell based on Col. 1:17 And He Himself existed and is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. [His is the controlling, cohesive force of the universe.] AMP When it says the Spirit Indwells us that would refer to "indwells us for our benefit" IMO. Lot's of verses saying the Spirit is helping those In Christ.
Those in hell have the Spirit indwelling them in that the Spirit keeps them alive to suffer torment. (" and in Him all things hold together.")

Colossians 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: 15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. 19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

That is not the Holy Spirit being testified of in those passages but the Word of God, the Lord Jesus Christ. So the Holy Spirit does not have to be in sinners in hell or the lake of fire when it is by His Word, the Word of God is how everything consist. By His word that dead are resurrected at the Great white Throne Judgment and by His word, they are condemned for why they are "eternal" and suffering eternal torment.

Well, that is a valid point. I said that my guess is that when God says He indwells saints it refers to His benefiting them as opposed to indwelling (upholding) those in hell who He does not benefit.
Technically, God being omnipresent, the Spirit is found in everything. “Indwelling” refers to being present to “benefit” the person the is indwelt. Chafer, Lewis Sperry. The Collected Works of Lewis Sperry Chafer - Seven books in one. Jawbone Digital. Kindle Edition.
Now, it's quite possible that Chafer is wrong too (fallacy of Authority)

Seeing how God is in us to dwell within us, and thereby the future promise of us dwelling with God in Heaven, it is more than just about benefits.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.... 26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

1 Corinthians 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

2 Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

Well, you may be right. Again, a definition of INDWELLING would be a foundation for discussion. I define INDWELLING as "present with". I think the Spirit is "present with" those in Hell. INDWELLING in believers has a special emphasis and I take it that this means "present with to benefit". I don't have proof.

Psalm 16:9 Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: my flesh also shall rest in hope. 10For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. 11 Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore.

Acts 2:26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope: 27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. 28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.

That was about Jesus Christ but I would discern that to be also true for the Holy Spirit for why they are not in sinners in hell & the lake of fire.

Total agreement ... it's difficult to understand the transcendent One.

Hopefully I am understanding the nuances of this issue better by His grace & by His help as it is by the Word of God is how everything is.

 

[fastfredy0]

I believe that God is omnipresence and omniscience but that does not mean the Holy Spirit is the modem for how the Triune God knows or actually does everything. Let us look at your earlier comment again.

THE SECOND HELVETIC CONFESSION CHAPTER III - Of God, His Unity and Trinity
Thus there are not three gods, but three persons, co-substantial, coeternal, and coequal; distinct with respect to hypostases, and with respect to order, the one preceding the other yet without any inequality. For according to the nature or essence they are so joined together that they are one God, and the divine nature is common to the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
Well, as I read the confession above, there is not difference between the 3 persons of the Trinity in regard to presence, knowledge, power... pretty much everything

That is not the Holy Spirit being testified of in those passages but the Word of God, the Lord Jesus Christ.

I would argue that what Christ (Son of God) or the Father does, the Spirit does also. We disagree.
We probably don't want to get into the mystery of the Trinity.

Seeing how God is in us to dwell within us, and thereby the future promise of us dwelling with God in Heaven, it is more than just about benefits.

Hmmm, if God indwelling us is more than beneficial, what part of God indwelling us is not a benefit?