Christ died for them not appointed to Wrath.

[brightfame52]

1 Thess 5:9-10

. 9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

I believe this means that the ones appointed to wrath, Christ didnt die for them. Who are they appointed to wrath ? Romans 9 tells us,

Rom 9:21-22

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

The word to make poieō is a verb that has to do with to create.

Its the same word Jesus speaks Matt 19:4

4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,

And we know this refers back to creation Gen 5:1-2

This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him; 2 male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.

So God made some men as vessels of dishonor. The word dishonor atimia means:

dishonour, ignominy, disgrace dishonour (4x), vile (1x), shame (1x), reproach (1x).

In the last day the vessels of wrath will be raised unto shame/contempt and wrath Dan 12:2

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Job speaks of the wicked reserved unto the day of wrath

Job 21:30

that the wicked is reserved to the day of destruction? they shall be brought forth to the day of wrath.

Now these men Christ did not die for, for what reason would He since He made them for the day of wrath for their sins, they are appointed to it.

BUT those who were made vessels of Mercy, God did not appoint them to wrath, but conversely for them to obtain Salvation. How ? Through the Lord Jesus Christ who died for them.

 

[Josheb]

Is this a reworded repeat of your previous op, or is this an update op with new content, possibly correcting some of the errors existing in the earlier version?

So God made some men as vessels of dishonor.

When, specifically, did God make them vessels of dishonor? Was it before they'd sinned, or afterwards?

BUT those who were made vessels of Mercy...

When, specifically, did God make them vessels of mercy? Was it before they'd sinned, or afterwards?


It looks like the exact same mistake is being committed. The word "made" is assumed in the op to be a reference to creation and not some time or event after creation. God makes sinners objects of wrath. God does not make non-sinners objects of wrath unless He is making them a propitiation for others (in which case, He makes the one who does know sin, sin). You're still going to run directly into conflict with Genesis 1:31 = everything God made was good. That, in turn, will lead into a pile of other conflicts with scripture, such as God Himself calling that which is good evil and vice versa, and God not authoring sin. If God made a completely different group of people who are unlike the other group, in the fact, they are sinful, evil, and by nature objects of wrath solely because God made them that way.... then God is incorrect calling them good. It is a righteous God making unrighteousness, Law Maker making lawlessness, and ever-faithful God making faithlessness. If sin and wrath are removed from the person then there is nothing from which they are, can be, or need be saved. When you say they were/are never objects of wrath you are removing their need for mercy and salvation. When you say they are born unrighteous by nature but not objects of wrath that is a contradiction. Multiple posters made note of these problems. These contradictions are enormously problematic, and you did not solve one of them in the prior thread.

What will be different this time?


The solution lies in God making Adam an object of wrath the second he disobeyed God and making Adam an object of mercy the minute he submitted to Jesus as his Lord and Savior. God, knowing ALL would sin and be made objects of wrath, providentially decided in eternity to save some from among the objects of wrath, making them post hoc objects of mercy. God took some from among the objects of wrath (which would be all people) and He made them objects of mercy. The decision, the making, happened in eternity, not within time and space of creation, but it played out in history, in each individual's life, that he or she would sin and thereby become and object of wrath, and then be shown mercy and saved by grace and thereby then become objects of mercy. A person who is just an object of wrath alone is only and always an object of wrath. A person who is an object of mercy has been both objects, having once previously been an object of wrath he or she was changed by God, made an object of mercy by divine providence even though he or she had previously sinned and consequentially born the effects of sin: death and wrath. It is from sin and wrath we have been saved.

 

[brightfame52]

When, specifically, did God make them vessels of dishonor? Was it before they'd sinned, or afterwards?

When He created man. When else

 

[Josheb]

When He created man. When else

When man sinned. There's no need for mercy where there is no sin.

 

[brightfame52]

When man sinned. There's no need for mercy where there is no sin.

That's like saying there was no need for Christ