Can the external call of the gospel by itself produce faith in the heart of the natural man?

[DialecticSkeptic]

Yeah I do, Jude 1:1 makes it clear

—a text which you have interpreted incorrectly.

 

[brightfame52]

—a text which you have interpreted incorrectly.

Thats your opinion, everyone has one

 

[Eleanor]

Who said that? [You seem to have misunderstood what I said.]

You did.

brightfame52 said:
There is a sanctified and preserved people whom God will call in time and that call will produce Faith in that called person Jude 1:1

Sanctified = set apart, from sin.

No one is sanctified before the new birth.

 

[brightfame52]

You did.

brightfame52 said:
There is a sanctified and preserved people whom God will call in time and that call will produce Faith in that called person Jude 1:1

Sanctified = set apart, from sin.

No one is sanctified before the new birth.

I didnt say they were set apart from sin.

 

[Eleanor]

I didnt say they were set apart from sin.

That is the meaning of sanctify - to set apart from sin.

 

[Hazelelponi]

That is the meaning of sanctify - to set apart from sin.

To sanctify is to set apart for holy use, like gold vessels in the temple for God’s glory, not common clay (2 Tim. 2:20-21).

Through union with Christ, believers are positionally sanctified—declared holy by His imputed righteousness (1 Cor. 1:30; Heb. 10:10), which is a gift of grace.

We’re also called to progressively grow in practical holiness (1 Pet. 1:15-16), which is enabled by the Spirit (Phil. 2:12-13) and is likewise, still positional.

Sanctification, positional and progressive, flows from Christ’s work, setting us apart for God’s purposes (Rom. 6:22). While it involves separation from sin, God can use anyone, like the thief on the cross, whose holiness is Christ’s alone until our ultimate glorification.

I’d nuance your definition slightly: sanctification isn’t primarily about sinlessness but being usable for God’s will and glory. He both begins and completes this work (Phil. 1:6).

Yeah I do, Jude 1:1 makes it clear

Jude 1:1 clearly teaches that believers are simultaneously called, beloved in God, and kept for Christ—distinct yet inseparable aspects of our standing, not a progression. The moment we are justified by faith, we are positionally in Christ, His righteousness imputed to us (Rom. 4:24; 2 Cor. 5:21).

God calls us out of the world into Christ (John 15:19), and while progressive sanctification may lead to greater tasks (Luke 16:10—“Whoever is faithful in little is faithful in much”), the apostles primarily speak of our calling as our initial salvation in Christ.

 

[brightfame52]

That is the meaning of sanctify - to set apart from sin.

You entitled to your opinion. I never heard of that b4 that the sanctified are set apart from sin. Does that mean they dont sin anymore, they are sinless ? Were all the sanctified in Corinth set apart from all sin 1 Cor 1:1

2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's:

 

[brightfame52]

@Hazelelponi

Jude 1:1 clearly teaches that believers are simultaneously called, beloved in God, and kept for Christ—distinct yet inseparable aspects of our standing, not a progression. The moment we are justified by faith, we are positionally in Christ, His righteousness imputed to us (Rom. 4:24; 2 Cor. 5:21).

I believe the sanctification by the Father in Jude 1:1 has to do with their election in Christ b4 the foundation of the world. Thats why it says sanctified by the Father. And all such are preserved in Jesus Christ, then in time, they are called by the Gospel to Faith

 

[His clay]

Avoid?

Is God capable of explaining and helping a natural man the truth about the gospel. So that man is able to make a decision?

Ot is God not capable?

It’s the ONLY valid question one should ask. Because it is the only one that answers the question you asked with reason

False framing. The real question is whether or not God has revealed Himself to be as your questions imply? Again, lest my point be missed, Scripture, not our questions, is the guide in understanding who God is and how God acts. I see a lot of speculation in your questions, but I don't see scripture.

 

[His clay]

Faith means to trust to have assurance.

When I came to faith in Christ I trusted his word and his promise. And I was assured he would keep his promise.

I think people make things to difficult

I believe in the simplicity that is in christ jesus

Again, John 3 and the Bronze serpent is a great example..

Now I do believe a person or persons who are born again can be gifted faith. Which is a gift of the HS. Like all the other gifts. I also know people who have this gift. They have a special way to trust things that seem greater than regular faith

Depends on context

Do I trust in history or Do I trust in God?

The jews trusted in the law. And history as they knew (and wrote it) so they failed to trust Christ. Because christ did not fit their view of the messiah,they did not think they needed saved because of their history

Then why did those who believed pick up stones to stone Jesus at the end of Jn8? The danger of simplicity is reductionism.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

False framing. The real question is whether or not God has revealed Himself to be as your questions imply? Again, lest my point be missed, Scripture, not our questions, is the guide in understanding who God is and how God acts. I see a lot of speculation in your questions, but I don't see scripture.

amen

and scripture says God came to Israel. he served them, he loved them, He called out to them.

But they were not willing.

God is more than capable of drawing people to himself. he does not need to pretty much force his hand by making him alive first. which goes against his very nature and apposes his own justice

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Then why did those who believed pick up stones to stone Jesus at the end of Jn8? The danger of simplicity is reductionism.

Because they did not believe.

Because he did not fit their defenition of a messiah

because he was a threat tot heir livelihoods

I can go on and on and on

Matthew 23:37

Jesus Laments over Jerusalem​

“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!

 

[brightfame52]

amen

and scripture says God came to Israel. he served them, he loved them, He called out to them.

But they were not willing.

God is more than capable of drawing people to himself. he does not need to pretty much force his hand by making him alive first. which goes against his very nature and apposes his own justice

Yes Drawing is making them alive, otherwise we remain dead in sin and enmity against God. Also making someone alive isnt forcing them, its giving them a new heart when they are made alive, a heart that desires the things of God. Now if a person lies dead, and God out of mercy makes them alive, how is that forcing them ? Thats doesnt make a lick of sense. In the day of Gods drawing power the heart is made willing Ps 110:3

3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.

 

[ReverendRV]

amen

and scripture says God came to Israel. he served them, he loved them, He called out to them.

But they were not willing.

God is more than capable of drawing people to himself. he does not need to pretty much force his hand by making him alive first. which goes against his very nature and apposes his own justice

God is capable; sure. But when talking to Sola Scripturists, you need to speak their language; when in Rome. When you are at places like CCAM, you will have to deal with limiting God, by limiting him to the Special Revelation of Scripture Alone. It's a Hermeneutic of Christianity...

So, howzit going?

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Yes Drawing is making them alive,

no. You can not make a person alive while still under the penalty of sin

if you have removed the penalty of sin to make them alive. then they are in essence already saved. and they never need to have faith

otherwise we remain dead in sin and enmity against God. Also making someone alive isnt forcing them, its giving them a new heart when they are made alive, a heart that desires the things of God. Now if a person lies dead, and God out of mercy makes them alive, how is that forcing them ? Thats doesnt make a lick of sense. In the day of Gods drawing power the heart is made willing Ps 110:3

3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.

He told Israel he wanted to gather them, that was his will.. They were unwilling (they did not believe)

He did not make him alive in his will. nor did he force them to not believe or keep them from believing

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

God is capable; sure. But when talking to Sola Scripturists, you need to speak their language; when in Rome. When you are at places like CCAM, you will have to deal with limiting God, by limiting him to the Special Revelation of Scripture Alone. It's a Hermeneutic of Christianity...

So, howzit going?

sadly,, I guess your right, PS I am a sola scripture person when it comes to knowledge and doctrine. so where would this put me..lol

But I believe God uses everything including his creation to draw people to himself.. making it that they have no excuse.

I am doing great sir. how have you been? Been awhile since I have had the pleasure of your company

 

[ReverendRV]

But I believe God uses everything including his creation to draw people to himself.. making it that they have no exexcuse.

Calvinists believe this too; but they believe more...

I remember hearing a Preacher say, "We believe the same as You; just more". I forgot who said it, I think it was Piper; but it stuck with me. - Now it would depend on "the more" being Biblical or not; right?

 

[brightfame52]

@Eternally-Grateful

no. You can not make a person alive while still under the penalty of sin

Thats a great point. But guess what ? The people Christ died for arent under the penalty of sin, Christ took care of that by His Death. He obtained for them eternal redemption Heb 9:12

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
Redemption here is the word lytrōsis:

1. a ransoming, redemption
2. deliverance, esp. from the penalty of sin

So the ones God will not make alive were never redeemed from the penalty of of sin by His own Blood, He didnt die for them.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Calvinists believe this too; but they believe more...

I remember hearing a Preacher say, "We believe the same as You; just more". I forgot who said it, I think it was Piper; but it stuck with me. - Now it would depend on "the more" being Biblical or not; right?

I would ask what the the "more" is.

correct me if I am wrong, but god makes them alive (regeneration) THEN they see and understand the truth, and repent and come to faith, and then are justified.

is this correct?

and yes, even if I have more, it depends on what is biblical on any side of any argument. Amen!!

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

@Eternally-Grateful



Thats a great point. But guess what ? The people Christ died for arent under the penalty of sin, Christ took care of that by His Death. He obtained for them eternal redemption Heb 9:12

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
Redemption here is the word lytrōsis:

1. a ransoming, redemption
2. deliverance, esp. from the penalty of sin

So the ones God will not make alive were never redeemed from the penalty of of sin by His own Blood, He didnt die for them.

actually Jesus himself disagrees.

John 3:
He who believes is not condemned.
He who does not believe is condemned already.

So the one who has not yet come to faith is still under the penalty of sin hence why they are still condemned. As the serpents killed the jews on Moses day. and Moses placed a serpent of bronze up. so whoever believed would live, and whoever did not will die

God sent his son to hang on a cross. so everyone who believed would live, and whoever did not will die.

but the offer was there for everyone. God did not force the people of Israel to disbelieve and not look. nor did he keep them from having the ability to look