Can the external call of the gospel by itself produce faith in the heart of the natural man?

[ReverendRV]

While I am not perfect. Nor do i have perfect theological beliefs (I personally do not think anyone does) I a confident of this thing, He who began a good work in me will complete it until the day of christ.

Perhaps we'll agree on this; some Theologies zero-in on perfect beliefs. We should expect Sound Doctrines to exist. Protestantism is a Label that zeros in on perfect beliefs; more than Mormonism does. There is nothing wrong with zeroing in even more; you believe in Monotheistic Trinitarianism, right?

When it comes to Soteriology, we can zero in on a belief that's as perfect a belief as the Hypostatic Union. Why do I feel like I'm teaching a beginner's Sunday School Class?

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

I see nothing wrong with labels. If they are done for the right reasons.

Agree. but they also have to be accurate. if they are not accurate. then they cause trouble

I am glad you are not. I believe provisionism is heresey.

I would agree from what I saw

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Perhaps we'll agree on this; some Theologies zero-in on perfect beliefs. We should expect Sound Doctrines to exist. Protestantism is a Label that zeros in on perfect beliefs;

Protestantism is in view of most. anyone who is not catholic. I stopped using the term about 20 years ago. as I do not protest the roman church. I do not even consider it a church. I see her as the harlot. or babylon, or the pagan church

more than Mormonism does.

I actually read the book of Mormon when I started having a bible study.. It was a blasphemous mock up in King Jimmy Style of 2 Kids of joseph where given a promise much Like Israel. only their promise was in the new world (The america's) I got about 3/4 of ther way through and had to put it down..

There is nothing wrong with zeroing in even more; you believe in Monotheistic Trinitarianism, right?

I believe in one God in three persons yes

When it comes to Soteriology, we can zero in on a belief that's as perfect a belief as the Hypostatic Union.

I am well versed in Christology yes

Why do I feel like I'm teaching a beginner's Sunday School Class?

I learned many of these views in my teens. I do not focus on them. so have forgotten what some mean.

Most people I know do not need these things, Although I am getting ready to teach a Christology class to my men's cell group (some new believers who have never been exposed to theology proper)

In my church, we do not have 20 minute sermonettes as many churches do. We go through a book, verse by verse. and teach that book.

I remember as a teen, Our PT he called himself (pastor-teacher) would get deep into the Greek and Hebrew, and as we do. go book by book. He would also stop when a word or theological term came up. and teach us that theology. I remember learning a lot in this time, I had great knowledge. sadly, I did not have the most important part. Community. So when I left home and joined the military, I had all the knowledge to overcome. But I did not have the knowledge I need to find a community of believers in my mold. even when we had no access to church. So Satan was able to sift me pretty good. until I finally got back. But alot of damage was done.

I believe it is also why that church crashed. Knowledge without love and community is just that Knowledge. What good does it do.

 

[Arial]

The Bible is clear how
1 The death of christ propitiated (satisfied Gods wrath) them
2. The blood of christ cleaned them as it washed their sins away and made them whiter than snow
3. The justifier justified them through the redemption found in christ jesus
4. All of this is done or completed when Mane comes to faith. Again, Romans 3 makes this clear.

Or is it completed and all these things come to pass when the Holy Spirit regenerates? These things you mention are distinctions within the new birth, not a time line leading to the new birth. Is it possible that what I say is correct?

Yes, But first, he must convict them, Convince them, and teach them. So that they will make a choice to recieve Gods grace

Does Scripture support this statement? If it does, show me how.

yes, Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word.

It is not given, It must be earned.

Here you have said openly what you have in other places denied. You have attached earning to faith and that is not grace, it is works. Rest assured that I will bookmark this statement so the next time you deny having said it, I can easily, dispute that with your own words. And this is not for the purposes of a "gotcha" but to bring to your attention and for your own benefit, the inconsistency, if not in beliefs, at least in the way you word things. And to point out that what you say, at least in the way you say it, is works righteousness.

This problem of apparent inconsistency and waffling, that looks like you do not know really what you believe or why you believe it, that posters have noticed and pointed out, again and again, could be solved by getting the two things correctly aligned with Scripture. They are places where it looks like you are straddling a fence.

The first is trying to believe in election and free will in choosing Christ at the same time. The second is, because of the free will in choosing position, you put the new birth as the wrong thing and in the wrong place in order to keep "free will" in tact.

Now, you can erroneously take that as an insult and hurl accusations against my character (which will result in a report likely being made), saying I do not understand you and misrepresent you: or you can ponder it for what it is, as I intended it. As my way of bringing something to your attention in hopes that it will be of help. We all try to hide from ourselves on a regular basis, but we cannot hide from God. He goes steadily on working in us to expose our hidden sins and weaknesses to us, that he might sanctify us in those areas, so that we might walk in his ways. And he steadily continues to teach us.

I do not require an acknowledgement from you or agreement made publicly. It is between you and God.

It is faith in God that allows God to apply the saving grace.

Given who God is, and given who we are, it is my assertion that something that we do "allows" God to apply saving grace, or allows him to do anything, should never be thought or said. But here too you have removed grace from grace and made it works. If I go by what you have said before (paraphrased) God helps us to understand the gospel, therefore faith is not a work, but a gift. And we make the choice of whether or not to accept the gift, and if we do, then he will extend grace to save. And according to the above, we allow him to apply saving grace.

Does that sound like this God: Psalm 115:3 Our God is in the heavens; he does all that he pleases.

Is 46:8-10 "Remember this an stand firm, recall it to mind, you transgressors, remember the former things of old; for I am God, and there is no other; I am God and there is none like me, Declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, 'My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose,'

Ps 135:6 Whatever the Lord pleases, he does, in heaven and on earth, in the seas and all deeps.

He will not force it on you. Thats wht a loving father does. He offers his children the good things in life. But he does not force them to take them, When they refuse, He is saddened.. It does not mean he stops loving them.

I remain confused by the attitude that if by his own power and solely for his own good pleasure, he rescues someone from the kingdom of darkness and brings them into the kingdom of the Son he loves, without consulting them or asking their permission, it is considered being forced against their will. My own reaction when I realized the reason I believed was because he alone gave me to Christ, and I had nothing to do with it, was unfathomable gratitude. Him I can trust. Me, not so much.

To me, the instinctive rebellion against God doing anything unless we will it, is the "old man" not let go yet of the first rebellion against God. The desire for both things. Autonomy ( independence from God) and at the same time all the good things, like eternal life, from him. God answering to us rather than us answering to God.

Thats wht a loving father does. He offers his children the good things in life. But he does not force them to take them, When they refuse, He is saddened.. It does not mean he stops loving them.

A loving father does not let his child walk off a cliff or into danger just because the child says, "Leave me alone!"

 

[Arial]

John 3 Romans 3 to name a few

John 3 specifically says they have to be born again. Not that all have the ability to be put under Christ. Romans 3 says all are equally guilty before God and the righteousness of God is through faith, not that all have the ability to be put under Christ.

lol. Is this why people are so agreed to place their faith in christ. Because it is some work of merit?

I have never understood what the fear is, this thinking makes no sense to me.

Fear? Of what? But here are your own words as to faith being a merit.

yes, Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word.

It is not given, It must be earned.

 

[ReverendRV]

John 3 specifically says they have to be born again. Not that all have the ability to be put under Christ. Romans 3 says all are equally guilty before God and the righteousness of God is through faith, not that all have the ability to be put under Christ.

Fear? Of what? But here are your own words as to faith being a merit.

P1) We must be Born Again to enter the Kingdom of God...
P2) We enter the Kingdom through Faith John 5:24
C) We're Born Again before we enter through Faith...


Another Divine Syllogism...

 

[Arial]

My friend, I am being honest.I think you have such an aversion to me, I do not think anything I say will convince you

I have no aversion to you. I disagree with many of the things you say and you saying them does not convince me that you are right. You have well and truly expressed your aversion to me and the refusal to listen to or consider anything I say because of it. You blame me for the aversion you have when I have not said anything that others have not also said. But just take note that starting a post the way you did above undermines your own presentation and drips with condescension and judgement.

Jesus did what on the cross?

He made atonement for sin

I know what he did but that is not what I asked. You evidently have no way of understanding the question. I will ask it again anyway. WHy did he have to do that? In light of the post where you said:

Again, God can overcome this.. He has for 6000 years now.

And the "this" was man's enmity with God.

Jesus did the same. For the sin of the world.Which he made propitiation for.

Do you interpret this as everyone in the world without exception; or are you interpreting it as all types of peoples and all nations? If your answer is the first one; then he most certainly did not successfully propitiate everyone's sin or no one would still come into judgement.

If he did not go to the cross. We would be under law.

How are you interpreting law here? The Sinai covenant law? Or the moral law of God as given in the ten commandments? We were created under the moral law of God and are never out from under it. We are never out from under God. It will not save us because we cannot do it. But thanks be to God we are saved by grace through faith and the imputed righteousness of Christ who obeyed perfectly both aspects of law. And we come under, not law, but the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit in us to be conformed to the image of Christ, and are counted as such now.

I believe in an omnipotent, Omniscient and Perfect loving God who can overcome anything, I do not limit God.

Well, you do in practice or words, when you limit his ability to save any, by his own free will, to the free will of man.

 

[Eleanor]

Smh
My friend, I am being honest.I think you have such an aversion to me, I do not think anything I say will convince you
Jesus did what on the cross?
He made atonement for sin
the High priest made atonement for all the children of Israel (and gentiles who joined them) whether they believed in God or not

The Atonement did not cover those outside Israel (Lev 16:15, 17), and Jesus' atonement does not cover those outside the Church.

The Day of Atonement was for the cleansing of the holy things, the tabernacle and courtyard (Lev 16:16; cf Rev 21:27) because, being in the midst of the people, it was defiled by their sin (e.g., Nu 19:13, 20, 20:3), and must be cleansed of the sin of the High Priest, the priests and the people, so God could continue to dwell with them.

Jesus did the same. For the sin of the world.Which he made propitiation for.

Not quite. . .

The High Priest did not make atonement for those outside Israel, and Jesus did not make atonement for those outside the Church (the one olive tree of all God's people, Ro 11:16-23).

In Jn 17, Jesus interceded first for himself (vv. 4-5), second for his household/apostles (vv. 6-19) and third for all believers (vv. 20-24), the same order of intercession made by the High Priest on the Day of Atonement (Lev 16:3, 6, 11 15, 17).
Jesus did not intercede for those outside the Church, just as the High Priest did not intercede for those outside Israel.

If he did not go to the cross. We would be under law.
Now tell me, how many of us would end up in heaven?

You would not end up in heaven if you kept the Law even as perfectly as Jesus did,
because the law was not given for salvation (Ro 3:20), which has always been by faith (Ge 15:5-6).
The law was given to reveal sin (Ro 3:20-21).

I believe in an omnipotent, Omniscient and Perfect loving God who can overcome anything, I do not limit God.
ATONEMENT
Again, read John 3, He says it well.. He came not to judge THE WORLD. But that THE WORLD through him MIGHT BE SAVED.
It did not say the would would be saved it said it might be saved

What seperates the lost from the found?
he who believes is NOT CONDEMNED
He who DOES NOT BELIEVE is Condmemned already
It would be foolish for God to come to earth. Live a life fulfilling the law. The die for his creation.
Then not give them a chance to be redeemed by His blood..

Who made that rule?

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Or is it completed and all these things come to pass when the Holy Spirit regenerates? These things you mention are distinctions within the new birth, not a time line leading to the new birth. Is it possible that what I say is correct?

I DO not see any way this is possible. Because you have the cart before the horse. You have forgiveness of sin and the removal of the penalty of sin removed BEFORE a person is actually saved By grace through faith.

In fact. you have removed the need to even have faith. why require faith if you are already saved.

Also. You have a time issue. God says he draws us to himself. this drawing and teaching is dragging us to himself.

So in effect. You have a guy regenerated. Then immediately believes. No time to learn. No time to be drawn.

it does not add up.

Does Scripture support this statement? If it does, show me how

Does scripture teach that anyone will believe without being taught?

Unless it does. What I said is confirmed.

but we know one of the things of the spirit. is to do just that

John 16: 8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 of sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10 of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; 11 of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.

so even if you think it did not happen in the OT ( I still believe the HS taught even back then. You have to agree. he does that now.

When a person says no. they are saying no to the HS.. They have committed the unpardonable sin the only sin not paid at the cross.

.

Here you have said openly what you have in other places denied. You have attached earning to faith and that is not grace, it is works.

Edit by mod: Deleted objectionable content. Please keep your comments to the point, and not to the person. See Rules 2.2 and 4.3

 

[ReverendRV]

I DO not see any way this is possible. Because you have the cart before the horse. You have forgiveness of sin and the removal of the penalty of sin removed BEFORE a person is actually saved By grace through faith.

This is not true...

You agree we're Justified/Forgiven through Faith Alone. So a New Birth which follows Faith doesn't remove Sin; no more than a Regeneration before Faith removes Sin...

Regeneration is New Life; not the removal of Sin. Expiation is the removal of Sin. Expiation is Atonement, not the New Birth...

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

This is not true...

Show me why you believe this and why I should change my thinking

You agree we're Justified/Forgiven through Faith Alone. So a New Birth which follows Faith doesn't remove Sin; no more than a Regeneration before Faith removes Sin...

Redemption removes sin

Justiication is being declared righteous. Or having christs righteousness imputed to us

It is why we are made alive. By grace we have been saved.

But it comes through faith. If regeneration happens first faith is not needed I am already forgiven and justices and free of sin

Regeneration is New Life; not the removal of Sin.

Regeneration is new life amen

We were dead in trespasses and sin the wage of si. Is death

Until that penalty is removed we are still dead

Expiation is the removal of Sin. Expiation is Atonement, not the New Birth...

New birth is because of the atonement not the other way around

Again show me how we can be made alive in sin.

 

[ElectedbyHim]

I DO not see any way this is possible. Because you have the cart before the horse. You have forgiveness of sin and the removal of the penalty of sin removed BEFORE a person is actually saved By grace through faith.

In fact. you have removed the need to even have faith. why require faith if you are already saved.

Also. You have a time issue. God says he draws us to himself. this drawing and teaching is dragging us to himself.

So in effect. You have a guy regenerated. Then immediately believes. No time to learn. No time to be drawn.

it does not add up.



Does scripture teach that anyone will believe without being taught?

Unless it does. What I said is confirmed.

but we know one of the things of the spirit. is to do just that

John 16: 8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 of sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10 of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; 11 of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.

so even if you think it did not happen in the OT ( I still believe the HS taught even back then. You have to agree. he does that now.

When a person says no. they are saying no to the HS.. They have committed the unpardonable sin the only sin not paid at the cross.

And here you go again with your false accusations.

My friend. If you can not talk to me without falsely accusing me and continually attacking me by saying I have done what I have not done. Please stop talking to me.

I have not attached earning to faith. Maybe in your theological world I have. But I have not

I am done..

I am not seeing any false accusations against you.

 

[Arial]

I DO not see any way this is possible.

Does that make it impossible?

Because you have the cart before the horse. You have forgiveness of sin and the removal of the penalty of sin removed BEFORE a person is actually saved By grace through faith.

No I don't. Read my post again,

Or is it completed and all these things come to pass when the Holy Spirit regenerates? These things you mention are distinctions within the new birth, not a time line leading to the new birth. Is it possible that what I say is correct?

n fact. you have removed the need to even have faith. why require faith if you are already saved.

No I haven't. Read my post again.

Or is it completed and all these things come to pass when the Holy Spirit regenerates? These things you mention are distinctions within the new birth, not a time line leading to the new birth. Is it possible that what I say is correct?

They are a part of the regeneration iow.

Also. You have a time issue. God says he draws us to himself. this drawing and teaching is dragging us to himself.

So in effect. You have a guy regenerated. Then immediately believes. No time to learn. No time to be drawn.

it does not add up.

It is not a time issue with God, and it becomes not a time issue when he does whatever he does in us. (It does not occur in exactly the same way for everyone.)To be regenerated simply means the heart has been changed from hard to soft by God. And until it is made soft God is our enemy and spiritual things are foolishness to us. How long did it take him to part the Red Sea? To make the shadow go backwards? To change Lazaraus from four days decomposed to walking and talking.We speak and think in a linear way and can do nothing else. That does not mean the action of God is linear. He says "let there be." and there is.

God doesn't help us. He changes us!

Does scripture teach that anyone will believe without being taught?

Unless it does. What I said is confirmed.

This is what you said:

Yes, But first, he must convict them, Convince them, and teach them. So that tIt wahey will make a choice to recieve Gods grace

And to put it in the context of the conversation in the above you are stating that the things above are prior to the New Birth, and I say they are after. So instead of asking a question in place of answering a question, where does it say that a person cannot be reborn until after God has convinced them, and taught them, so that they can make a choice on whether to be reborn or not?

John 16: 8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 of sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10 of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; 11 of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.

That is not talking about the new birth, or conversion.

so even if you think it did not happen in the OT ( I still believe the HS taught even back then. You have to agree. he does that now.

Change of subject.

When a person says no. they are saying no to the HS.. They have committed the unpardonable sin the only sin not paid at the cross.

Another change of subject.