Arminians, how does this work?

[praise_yeshua]

Your interpretation is in error. Do you have any scripture to back that up?

Jesus said very clearly that after He was "lifted up" that he would draw all men to Himself. It is rather obvious that the Gospel is indiscriminate declared concerning the "lifting up" of Christ on the cross. All are called. Few are chosen.

Mat 20:16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.

 

[brightfame52]

Jesus said very clearly that after He was "lifted up" that he would draw all men to Himself. It is rather obvious that the Gospel is indiscriminate declared concerning the "lifting up" of Christ on the cross. All are called. Few are chosen.

Mat 20:16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.

Jesus is saying that the all men He draws to Himself because of His being lifted up, they as a result come to believe in Him, that's His guarantee, so the all is limited to all who actually come to believe in Him[The elect], else He lied. They actually come UNTO HIM

32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. The purpose for the drawing reaches it goal, to follow Him

 

[makesends]

In a sense, all mistakes in understanding scripture are deception (not necessarily deliberate or serious), all the more so, when they are the result of rejecting the truth.

One example (not from rejecting the truth) would be when I heard an Elim pastor in Edinburgh, during his sermon, explain the meaning of a particular English word in the original Greek (I forget which one). The trouble was that the English word used in the translation he'd looked up was used, in different places, to translate two different Greek words, with different meanings. He had been sloppy and picked the wrong Greek word (I knew because I'd looked up that exact word, from the same verse, the night before). So, he was deceived by his carelessness.

It was not a particularly serious error, but it does show that being deceived is not always from some crafty false teacher, but can result from simple mistakes. We all need to be on our guard.

That's true, but there is also the sense in which, from birth til death, we fall short in being mere ignorant, temporal, humans, and in ourselves full of rebellion; though the regenerated has springs of living water, informing and motivating, the flesh warring against the spirit is continuous, and nothing we do is of itself pure, except what God does in us.

In a way, this touches on what you said, though, because we are deceived by our own faults. The "old man" is still there, and that is our fault, continuously corrupting and rebelling. We are still to blame even when in appearance we do what is right; we do it for wrong motives, with the old habit of self-determination, self-importance, self-centeredness, sinful. And of these things the Spirit of God convicts us, continually.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Jesus is saying that the all men He draws to Himself because of His being lifted up, they as a result come to believe in Him, that's His guarantee, so the all is limited to all who actually come to believe in Him[The elect], else He lied. They actually come UNTO HIM

32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. The purpose for the drawing reaches it goal, to follow Him

I'm certain if I respond, you will just repeat yourself. I'll ignore you here as I do everywhere.

 

[praise_yeshua]

That's true, but there is also the sense in which, from birth til death, we fall short in being mere ignorant, temporal, humans, and in ourselves full of rebellion; though the regenerated has springs of living water, informing and motivating, the flesh warring against the spirit is continuous, and nothing we do is of itself pure, except what God does in us.

Which indicates that salvation is a progressive action that isn't entirely complete. If it is not entirely complete, then why judge men now?

1Co 4:5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

 

[Josheb]

In a sense, all mistakes in understanding scripture are deception (not necessarily deliberate or serious), all the more so, when they are the result of rejecting the truth.

One example (not from rejecting the truth) would be when I heard an Elim pastor in Edinburgh, during his sermon, explain the meaning of a particular English word in the original Greek (I forget which one). The trouble was that the English word used in the translation he'd looked up was used, in different places, to translate two different Greek words, with different meanings. He had been sloppy and picked the wrong Greek word (I knew because I'd looked up that exact word, from the same verse, the night before). So, he was deceived by his carelessness.

It was not a particularly serious error, but it does show that being deceived is not always from some crafty false teacher, but can result from simple mistakes. We all need to be on our guard.

Here's what I was inclined to reply:

I understand. I will still reserve a distinction between the two labels until I see reason sufficient to use the terms interchangeably. I will, in light of what I have already posted, say my prior experience believing my conversion was partly due to my choosing God absent God giving me ALL the constituent conditions was definitely a matter of self-deception. I thought the event was synergistic. It felt synergistic. It seemed I was there observing the event as an active participant. I read scripture accordingly for many, many years only to discover if scripture is true and correct as written then ALL the subjective experience was wrong, all my perceptions were wrong. I was self-deceived by an unreliable condition called sin. Because we all come from a prior state of sin, we are all, therefore, also coming from an inherent state of deception.

Beyond that I am unwilling to say all Arminians are deceived. We all make mistakes understanding God's word. Some of those mistakes are definitely matters of deception by self or others (bad or false teachers), but some of them are simply matters of maturity. A child is not deceived because he thinks the sun is following the car as his father drives down the highway. As his faculties improve and more knowledge obtained, he changes accordingly. Most of us Cals here were previously Arms. We were mistaken, not deceived. As we grew and received more knowledge we changed.

Matthew 22:29-30
But Jesus answered and said to them, "You are mistaken, not understanding the Scriptures nor the power of God. For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven."

Romans 7:9-12
I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died; and this commandment, which was to result in life, proved to result in death for me; for sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me. So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.

Scripture uses the two words differently.​

But.....

Upon further examination I find "planasthe" (mistaken) literally means to go astray or wander away but carries with it the connotation of going astray being deceived. and "exepatesen" (deceived) is simply a matter of degrees, a whole seduction or thorough deception. Both, therefore, are matters of deception and I will adjust my thinking and practice accordingly and again extend my gratitude to you personally for the opportunity to dive into scripture, check my own views, and learn. I say this last part for two reasons: First, you, @David1701, have often been a source of benefit to me through both your content AND method by which an example is set for us all and I want everyone to know that about you and follow that example - an example that persist even on occasions when we have disagreement. The other reason is more self-serving because I want it known by all my critics that when presented with a reasonable and rational case absent the ad hominem I can be persuaded (especially when correctly rendered scripture supports the case). That is how it is supposed to be done. It's happened twice in this thread, and on both occasions, it was much valued and appreciated.

Thanks, David

 

[makesends]

Which indicates that salvation is a progressive action that isn't entirely complete. If it is not entirely complete, then why judge men now?

1Co 4:5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

Does "judge nothing" in 1Co 4:5 refer to judging deeds, thoughts, etc, or judging men? "Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God."

But regardless, why are you asking why judge men now? Who is judging men now?

Side note: "...then shall every man have praise of God." Does this mean that every man will be praised by God? Or is this referring to the fact that only then shall any man have praise of God?


But, in response to your claim, "salvation is a progressive action that isn't entirely complete", I'm not sure what you mean. In one very real sense, 1. We were saved quite apart from our existence on earth, time passage irrelevant. God spoke the fact into being (—Decree). In another sense, 2. WE are not yet complete persons and will not be until we see him as he is. Salvation is, in the first sense, a complete fact, (contingent on sure events in time that were also decreed before time). In the second sense, it is not a progressive action, but a seen (understood) fact when we know WHO our Salvation is when we see him as he is, and thus it is related to the first sense. In a third sense, (and this is usually the one referred to by the term, 'saved'), 3. Our sins are removed from us and our bondage to sin is broken —we are saved from our sin— and our dead nature is born from above, and this is also done during our passage of time, though it too has been decreed from before time.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Does "judge nothing" in 1Co 4:5 refer to judging deeds, thoughts, etc, or judging men? "Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God."

But regardless, why are you asking why judge men now? Who is judging men now?

Everyone judges others. Everyone. Never meet someone that didn't. I often get attacked for having a "low threshold" of acceptance by God. One of the defining traits of ego is found in the lack of self awareness among mankind. We can't see ourselves in others. We all tend to believe that we are different when we are all pretty much just alike.

Side note: "...then shall every man have praise of God." Does this mean that every man will be praised by God? Or is this referring to the fact that only then shall any man have praise of God?

When God speaks, that will be all that matters. No. God will not praise all men. However, God will say "well done" to those who earn such praise. God doesn't make bad choices.

But, in response to your claim, "salvation is a progressive action that isn't entirely complete", I'm not sure what you mean. In one very real sense, 1. We were saved quite apart from our existence on earth, time passage irrelevant. God spoke the fact into being (—Decree). In another sense, 2. WE are not yet complete persons and will not be until we see him as he is. Salvation is, in the first sense, a complete fact, (contingent on sure events in time that were also decreed before time). In the second sense, it is not a progressive action, but a seen (understood) fact when we know WHO our Salvation is when we see him as he is, and thus it is related to the first sense. In a third sense, (and this is usually the one referred to by the term, 'saved'), 3. Our sins are removed from us and our bondage to sin is broken —we are saved from our sin— and our dead nature is born from above, and this is also done during our passage of time, though it too has been decreed from before time.

1. I disagree but you know that. That is a complicated subject. I'll not address it at the moment.
2. Until our body is changed. Flesh profits nothing. You're still flesh. I am too.
3. Our bodies progressively let us down throughout our entire lives. David sinned throughout his life. Some sins were far worse later in his life than earlier. Same with Moses. Same every man. The idea that the new birth empowers us above sin is contrary to fact and circumstances. Good men loose their minds as they age. Especially today when drugs can keep us at the edge of death much longer than in history past. Many people are live today that would have long since died. Their bodies gradually decay more today and produces an eroding of the mind.

Everything you are comes THROUGH your flesh. Everything. Your voice. Your communication. Your "light" to this world is clouded in the flesh. You can claim the promises of God (and we should. I do) but this doesn't change the very real facts of our lives. We are designed to struggle through this life to the point we lose everything but God.

 

[GeneZ]

Arminians, can you describe with scriptural proof God’s work before regeneration to get man’s flesh to believe?

One does not believe with his flesh....
Its why our flesh was crucified with Christ.
But, our souls are saved.

Man believes with thought.

​

Proverbs 23:7a​

​

For as he thinks in his heart, so is he.​

If God can subdue our flesh's influence over our mind?
Then our mind was made free to decide what it wants to believe.

That is why we must be saved by grace. Not simply logic alone.
For God's Spirit is able to sovereignly take control and silence our flesh,
making our soul free to either accept thoughts from God, or to reject.

In effect. God's power of grace placed us in a position to choose just like the angels had before some fell.
Both Satan and Gabriel made their choices freely!

 

[brightfame52]

One does not believe with his flesh....
Its why our flesh was crucified with Christ.
But, our souls are saved.

Man believes with thought.

​

Proverbs 23:7a​

​

For as he thinks in his heart, so is he.​

If God can subdue our flesh's influence over our mind?
Then our mind was made free to decide what it wants to believe.

That is why we must be saved by grace. Not simply logic alone.
For God's Spirit is able to sovereignly take control and silence our flesh,
making our soul free to either accept thoughts from God, or to reject.

In effect. God's power of grace placed us in a position to choose just like the angels had before some fell.
Both Satan and Gabriel made their choices freely!

Its the New Man Created in Righteousness and True Holiness that believes in Christ Eph 4:24, for the old man, the unbeliever was crucified with Christ Rom 6:6

Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

 

[Carbon]

Its the New Man Created in Righteousness and True Holiness that believes in Christ Eph 4:24, for the old man, the unbeliever was crucified with Christ Rom 6:6

Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Amen !