Argument against the Doctrine of the Trinity. (And keep it clean, please.)

[Paul]

Hmmm....

When were his mind and will formed?

When you say he was "born before the ages" and his spirit formed [at] "the beginning of creation" do you realize you are contradicting yourself? Do you understand the contradiction of a beginning that occurs before the beginning ("before the world began")?

Do you understand the language of "Father" and "Son" is soteriological? Do you realize it's not the whole ontology of the Godhead?

There is no contradiction. In the event of the creation Jesus is the First of the Fathers works. Before all other things. All other things were created through Him.
Jesus is the Fathers oldest child. He is begotten and is a Son.

 

[Josheb]

There is no contradiction.

There is a contradiction. It may not be seen but it is there. Look (think) harder.

In the event of the creation Jesus is the First of the Fathers works. Before all other things. All other things were created through Him.
Jesus is the Fathers oldest child. He is begotten and is a Son.

You're doing it again. You are quoting scripture but not reconciling it with itself. NOTHING existed before creation was created. You CANNOT, therefore, say Jesus was before creation AND also say he is part of creation without instantly contradicting yourself. Either work out the conflict or acknowledge you haven't yet figured it out. I can work with either, but you've got to come to terms with this contradiction.

 

[Arial]

God formed Jesus's spirit;

That is creating. The spirit of a person is the life of that person.

God was pleased to have the fullness of His Deity dwell in His Firstborn. So it that union the Son is the imprint of the Fathers very being and He and the Father are one. In that context He is God. That's not another formed Deity and it did take place.

Another formed deity that either is or is not deity. There is no context there in which something is something and not something at the same time and in the same place. He and the Father either are one or they are not one, but they cannot be one and not one at the same time and in the same place. Jesus is one person with to natures. The nature of his Father (God), and the nature of his other--human. The two are distinct and never mixed together.

Jesus's spirit is not deity. The Son who was, His spirit, descended into the body that was prepared for Him.

Here you seem to be saying that Jesus' spirit wasn't deity, but it was deity. Which is it?

. He did not have the spirit of a man.

What happened to the spirit of Jesus that God created?

The Father, who is Deity, was living in Him as we read.

The Holy Spirit was living in him as we read. It is the Holy Spirit who indwells the believer and seals them in Christ. You see, each person of the Godhead has a specific part in the redemption of anyone. and all are in agreement within the Covenant of Redemption, and that before the creation of the world. The Father sends the Son in the form of those who he will redeem, to do the work necessary for redemption. That is, live a life of perfect righteousness so he can be a substitute and propitiation between God and man, taking the penalty of sin that God's justice demands (Just is one of his attributes and cannot be denied) on himself so that his righteousness can be imputed to them through faith, reconciling them to a holy God. Having completed that earthly work on the cross with his death and resurrection (his defeat of the power of sin and death for those who believe) he returned to the Father as our mediator. The Holy Spirit regenerates those the Father is giving to the Son (John 3) and brings them into his kingdom, sealing them in Christ (Eph 1:1-14).

 

[Paul]

There is a contradiction. It may not be seen but it is there. Look (think) harder.

You're doing it again. You are quoting scripture but not reconciling it with itself. NOTHING existed before creation was created. You CANNOT, therefore, say Jesus was before creation AND also say he is part of creation without instantly contradicting yourself. Either work out the conflict or acknowledge you haven't yet figured it out. I can work with either, but you've got to come to terms with this contradiction.

He is before all other things created. He is the Firstborn of all creation. God the Father existed before the creation and Jesus was begotten of the Father before all other things.

 

[Paul]

That is creating. The spirit of a person is the life of that person.

Another formed deity that either is or is not deity. There is no context there in which something is something and not something at the same time and in the same place. He and the Father either are one or they are not one, but they cannot be one and not one at the same time and in the same place. Jesus is one person with to natures. The nature of his Father (God), and the nature of his other--human. The two are distinct and never mixed together.

Here you seem to be saying that Jesus' spirit wasn't deity, but it was deity. Which is it?

I never stated Jesus was Deity. The Father alone is Deity. I have stated over and over it is the fullness of the Fathers Deity that lives in the Son.

What happened to the spirit of Jesus that God created?

He still lives. "Father into your hands I commit My spirit"

The Holy Spirit was living in him as we read. It is the Holy Spirit who indwells the believer and seals them in Christ. You see, each person of the Godhead has a specific part in the redemption of anyone. and all are in agreement within the Covenant of Redemption, and that before the creation of the world. The Father sends the Son in the form of those who he will redeem, to do the work necessary for redemption. That is, live a life of perfect righteousness so he can be a substitute and propitiation between God and man, taking the penalty of sin that God's justice demands (Just is one of his attributes and cannot be denied) on himself so that his righteousness can be imputed to them through faith, reconciling them to a holy God. Having completed that earthly work on the cross with his death and resurrection (his defeat of the power of sin and death for those who believe) he returned to the Father as our mediator. The Holy Spirit regenerates those the Father is giving to the Son (John 3) and brings them into his kingdom, sealing them in Christ (Eph 1:1-14).

As I read Jesus stated the Father was living in Him. But since I believe the Holy Spirit is the Fathers very own Spirit as He is the only true God it really doesn't matter.
Jesus -Those who listen and learn from the Father come to me....

Fathers promise -In the last days I will pour out "MY" Spirit....
Acts 2 The Spirit Jesus sends He received from the Father.
Jesus-whom the Father will send in my name.
Jesus asked and the Father sent apparently your 3rd person had nothing to do with this sending.

 

[Arial]

I never stated Jesus was Deity. The Father alone is Deity. I have stated over and over it is the fullness of the Fathers Deity that lives in the Son.

That would make Jesus God.

Literal rendering of Col 2:9 "For in Him the whole fullness of deity resides bodily."

Greek Text:

ὅτι ἐν αὐτῷ κατοικεῖ πᾶν τὸ πλήρωμα τῆς θεότητος σωματικῶς.

Linguistic and Semantic Observations

1. ἐν αὐτῷ (en autō) – locative phrase: “in Him.”
   Refers to the sphere or location of the indwelling—Christ Himself is the locus of divine presence.
2. κατοικεῖ (katoikei) – from katoikeō, meaning “to dwell permanently,” not just “to stay temporarily.”
   Contrast with paroikeō (“to dwell as a stranger”). The present tense implies an ongoing, continual indwelling—the fullness of deity continues to dwell in Christ.
3. πᾶν τὸ πλήρωμα (pan to plērōma) – “the whole fullness.”
   The double expression of totality (“πᾶν” + “πλήρωμα”) intensifies completeness.
   → Nothing of deity is lacking in Christ.
4. τῆς θεότητος (tēs theotētos) – from theotēs, meaning “the state of being God,” divine essence.
   Distinct from theiotēs (Rom 1:20), which means “divine nature” or “divinity” in a more abstract sense.
   → Theotēs = full, essential Godhood. Paul is affirming that Christ possesses the complete divine nature, not merely divine attributes.
5. σωματικῶς (sōmatikōs) – adverb meaning “bodily,” i.e., in corporeal form.
   It modifies κατοικεῖ, describing the manner in which the fullness of deity resides: in bodily form.
   This directly opposes Gnostic or docetic ideas that denied the real, physical embodiment of divine fullness in Christ.

Jesus asked and the Father sent apparently your 3rd person had nothing to do with this sending.

A more careful reading of what I wrote would show you that I never said the Holy Spirit sent anything. The Spirit came because the Father and Son in unity sent him, just as Jesus was sent and came. It is what the each of those persons was sent to do and did that is the focus and that shows a Trune God redeeming. The Father did not come as one of us and die on the cross, The Son who is also the very essence of God did that work. Jesus did not apply the work that he did to individuals. The Holy Spirit who is also the very essence of God but a distinct he who acts, and feel, and speaks, applies that work to whoever the Father sends him to for the purpose of joining him to Christ through faith. He does this by changing their hard hearts that are at enmity with him, into pliable soft hearts who love him, cloaking them in the righteousness of the Son so that they can come near him---before his very throne. Jesus refers to it as being born again, born of God. We begin born in Adam, a horrible rebellios sinner, and are reborn by the grace of God, in Christ.

Move away from the treacherous borderlands of Gnosticism. To deny Christ's actual and real deity is to deny who he really is.

 

[David Lamb]

There is no contradiction. In the event of the creation Jesus is the First of the Fathers works. Before all other things. All other things were created through Him.
Jesus is the Fathers oldest child. He is begotten and is a Son.

But John says that all things were made by Him (the Word, the Son) and John emphasises "all things" by adding "and without Him nothing was made that was made." He doesn't say, "In the beginning God created the Word, and the Word created all other things