Argument against the Doctrine of the Trinity. (And keep it clean, please.)

[Paul]

Hmmm....

When were his mind and will formed?

When you say he was "born before the ages" and his spirit formed [at] "the beginning of creation" do you realize you are contradicting yourself? Do you understand the contradiction of a beginning that occurs before the beginning ("before the world began")?

Do you understand the language of "Father" and "Son" is soteriological? Do you realize it's not the whole ontology of the Godhead?

There is no contradiction. In the event of the creation Jesus is the First of the Fathers works. Before all other things. All other things were created through Him.
Jesus is the Fathers oldest child. He is begotten and is a Son.

 

[Josheb]

There is no contradiction.

There is a contradiction. It may not be seen but it is there. Look (think) harder.

In the event of the creation Jesus is the First of the Fathers works. Before all other things. All other things were created through Him.
Jesus is the Fathers oldest child. He is begotten and is a Son.

You're doing it again. You are quoting scripture but not reconciling it with itself. NOTHING existed before creation was created. You CANNOT, therefore, say Jesus was before creation AND also say he is part of creation without instantly contradicting yourself. Either work out the conflict or acknowledge you haven't yet figured it out. I can work with either, but you've got to come to terms with this contradiction.

 

[Arial]

God formed Jesus's spirit;

That is creating. The spirit of a person is the life of that person.

God was pleased to have the fullness of His Deity dwell in His Firstborn. So it that union the Son is the imprint of the Fathers very being and He and the Father are one. In that context He is God. That's not another formed Deity and it did take place.

Another formed deity that either is or is not deity. There is no context there in which something is something and not something at the same time and in the same place. He and the Father either are one or they are not one, but they cannot be one and not one at the same time and in the same place. Jesus is one person with to natures. The nature of his Father (God), and the nature of his other--human. The two are distinct and never mixed together.

Jesus's spirit is not deity. The Son who was, His spirit, descended into the body that was prepared for Him.

Here you seem to be saying that Jesus' spirit wasn't deity, but it was deity. Which is it?

. He did not have the spirit of a man.

What happened to the spirit of Jesus that God created?

The Father, who is Deity, was living in Him as we read.

The Holy Spirit was living in him as we read. It is the Holy Spirit who indwells the believer and seals them in Christ. You see, each person of the Godhead has a specific part in the redemption of anyone. and all are in agreement within the Covenant of Redemption, and that before the creation of the world. The Father sends the Son in the form of those who he will redeem, to do the work necessary for redemption. That is, live a life of perfect righteousness so he can be a substitute and propitiation between God and man, taking the penalty of sin that God's justice demands (Just is one of his attributes and cannot be denied) on himself so that his righteousness can be imputed to them through faith, reconciling them to a holy God. Having completed that earthly work on the cross with his death and resurrection (his defeat of the power of sin and death for those who believe) he returned to the Father as our mediator. The Holy Spirit regenerates those the Father is giving to the Son (John 3) and brings them into his kingdom, sealing them in Christ (Eph 1:1-14).

 

[Paul]

There is a contradiction. It may not be seen but it is there. Look (think) harder.

You're doing it again. You are quoting scripture but not reconciling it with itself. NOTHING existed before creation was created. You CANNOT, therefore, say Jesus was before creation AND also say he is part of creation without instantly contradicting yourself. Either work out the conflict or acknowledge you haven't yet figured it out. I can work with either, but you've got to come to terms with this contradiction.

He is before all other things created. He is the Firstborn of all creation. God the Father existed before the creation and Jesus was begotten of the Father before all other things.

 

[Paul]

That is creating. The spirit of a person is the life of that person.

Another formed deity that either is or is not deity. There is no context there in which something is something and not something at the same time and in the same place. He and the Father either are one or they are not one, but they cannot be one and not one at the same time and in the same place. Jesus is one person with to natures. The nature of his Father (God), and the nature of his other--human. The two are distinct and never mixed together.

Here you seem to be saying that Jesus' spirit wasn't deity, but it was deity. Which is it?

I never stated Jesus was Deity. The Father alone is Deity. I have stated over and over it is the fullness of the Fathers Deity that lives in the Son.

What happened to the spirit of Jesus that God created?

He still lives. "Father into your hands I commit My spirit"

The Holy Spirit was living in him as we read. It is the Holy Spirit who indwells the believer and seals them in Christ. You see, each person of the Godhead has a specific part in the redemption of anyone. and all are in agreement within the Covenant of Redemption, and that before the creation of the world. The Father sends the Son in the form of those who he will redeem, to do the work necessary for redemption. That is, live a life of perfect righteousness so he can be a substitute and propitiation between God and man, taking the penalty of sin that God's justice demands (Just is one of his attributes and cannot be denied) on himself so that his righteousness can be imputed to them through faith, reconciling them to a holy God. Having completed that earthly work on the cross with his death and resurrection (his defeat of the power of sin and death for those who believe) he returned to the Father as our mediator. The Holy Spirit regenerates those the Father is giving to the Son (John 3) and brings them into his kingdom, sealing them in Christ (Eph 1:1-14).

As I read Jesus stated the Father was living in Him. But since I believe the Holy Spirit is the Fathers very own Spirit as He is the only true God it really doesn't matter.
Jesus -Those who listen and learn from the Father come to me....

Fathers promise -In the last days I will pour out "MY" Spirit....
Acts 2 The Spirit Jesus sends He received from the Father.
Jesus-whom the Father will send in my name.
Jesus asked and the Father sent apparently your 3rd person had nothing to do with this sending.

 

[Arial]

I never stated Jesus was Deity. The Father alone is Deity. I have stated over and over it is the fullness of the Fathers Deity that lives in the Son.

That would make Jesus God.

Literal rendering of Col 2:9 "For in Him the whole fullness of deity resides bodily."

Greek Text:

ὅτι ἐν αὐτῷ κατοικεῖ πᾶν τὸ πλήρωμα τῆς θεότητος σωματικῶς.

Linguistic and Semantic Observations

1. ἐν αὐτῷ (en autō) – locative phrase: “in Him.”
   Refers to the sphere or location of the indwelling—Christ Himself is the locus of divine presence.
2. κατοικεῖ (katoikei) – from katoikeō, meaning “to dwell permanently,” not just “to stay temporarily.”
   Contrast with paroikeō (“to dwell as a stranger”). The present tense implies an ongoing, continual indwelling—the fullness of deity continues to dwell in Christ.
3. πᾶν τὸ πλήρωμα (pan to plērōma) – “the whole fullness.”
   The double expression of totality (“πᾶν” + “πλήρωμα”) intensifies completeness.
   → Nothing of deity is lacking in Christ.
4. τῆς θεότητος (tēs theotētos) – from theotēs, meaning “the state of being God,” divine essence.
   Distinct from theiotēs (Rom 1:20), which means “divine nature” or “divinity” in a more abstract sense.
   → Theotēs = full, essential Godhood. Paul is affirming that Christ possesses the complete divine nature, not merely divine attributes.
5. σωματικῶς (sōmatikōs) – adverb meaning “bodily,” i.e., in corporeal form.
   It modifies κατοικεῖ, describing the manner in which the fullness of deity resides: in bodily form.
   This directly opposes Gnostic or docetic ideas that denied the real, physical embodiment of divine fullness in Christ.

Jesus asked and the Father sent apparently your 3rd person had nothing to do with this sending.

A more careful reading of what I wrote would show you that I never said the Holy Spirit sent anything. The Spirit came because the Father and Son in unity sent him, just as Jesus was sent and came. It is what the each of those persons was sent to do and did that is the focus and that shows a Trune God redeeming. The Father did not come as one of us and die on the cross, The Son who is also the very essence of God did that work. Jesus did not apply the work that he did to individuals. The Holy Spirit who is also the very essence of God but a distinct he who acts, and feel, and speaks, applies that work to whoever the Father sends him to for the purpose of joining him to Christ through faith. He does this by changing their hard hearts that are at enmity with him, into pliable soft hearts who love him, cloaking them in the righteousness of the Son so that they can come near him---before his very throne. Jesus refers to it as being born again, born of God. We begin born in Adam, a horrible rebellios sinner, and are reborn by the grace of God, in Christ.

Move away from the treacherous borderlands of Gnosticism. To deny Christ's actual and real deity is to deny who he really is.

 

[David Lamb]

There is no contradiction. In the event of the creation Jesus is the First of the Fathers works. Before all other things. All other things were created through Him.
Jesus is the Fathers oldest child. He is begotten and is a Son.

But John says that all things were made by Him (the Word, the Son) and John emphasises "all things" by adding "and without Him nothing was made that was made." He doesn't say, "In the beginning God created the Word, and the Word created all other things

 

[Paul]

That would make Jesus God.

Literal rendering of Col 2:9 "For in Him the whole fullness of deity resides bodily."

Greek Text:


Linguistic and Semantic Observations

1. ἐν αὐτῷ (en autō) – locative phrase: “in Him.”
   Refers to the sphere or location of the indwelling—Christ Himself is the locus of divine presence.
2. κατοικεῖ (katoikei) – from katoikeō, meaning “to dwell permanently,” not just “to stay temporarily.”
   Contrast with paroikeō (“to dwell as a stranger”). The present tense implies an ongoing, continual indwelling—the fullness of deity continues to dwell in Christ.
3. πᾶν τὸ πλήρωμα (pan to plērōma) – “the whole fullness.”
   The double expression of totality (“πᾶν” + “πλήρωμα”) intensifies completeness.
   → Nothing of deity is lacking in Christ.
4. τῆς θεότητος (tēs theotētos) – from theotēs, meaning “the state of being God,” divine essence.
   Distinct from theiotēs (Rom 1:20), which means “divine nature” or “divinity” in a more abstract sense.
   → Theotēs = full, essential Godhood. Paul is affirming that Christ possesses the complete divine nature, not merely divine attributes.
5. σωματικῶς (sōmatikōs) – adverb meaning “bodily,” i.e., in corporeal form.
   It modifies κατοικεῖ, describing the manner in which the fullness of deity resides: in bodily form.
   This directly opposes Gnostic or docetic ideas that denied the real, physical embodiment of divine fullness in Christ.

A more careful reading of what I wrote would show you that I never said the Holy Spirit sent anything. The Spirit came because the Father and Son in unity sent him, just as Jesus was sent and came. It is what the each of those persons was sent to do and did that is the focus and that shows a Trune God redeeming. The Father did not come as one of us and die on the cross, The Son who is also the very essence of God did that work. Jesus did not apply the work that he did to individuals. The Holy Spirit who is also the very essence of God but a distinct he who acts, and feel, and speaks, applies that work to whoever the Father sends him to for the purpose of joining him to Christ through faith. He does this by changing their hard hearts that are at enmity with him, into pliable soft hearts who love him, cloaking them in the righteousness of the Son so that they can come near him---before his very throne. Jesus refers to it as being born again, born of God. We begin born in Adam, a horrible rebellios sinner, and are reborn by the grace of God, in Christ.

Move away from the treacherous borderlands of Gnosticism. To deny Christ's actual and real deity is to deny who he really is.

That would make Jesus God.

Literal rendering of Col 2:9 "For in Him the whole fullness of deity resides bodily."

Greek Text:


Linguistic and Semantic Observations

1. ἐν αὐτῷ (en autō) – locative phrase: “in Him.”
   Refers to the sphere or location of the indwelling—Christ Himself is the locus of divine presence.
2. κατοικεῖ (katoikei) – from katoikeō, meaning “to dwell permanently,” not just “to stay temporarily.”
   Contrast with paroikeō (“to dwell as a stranger”). The present tense implies an ongoing, continual indwelling—the fullness of deity continues to dwell in Christ.
3. πᾶν τὸ πλήρωμα (pan to plērōma) – “the whole fullness.”
   The double expression of totality (“πᾶν” + “πλήρωμα”) intensifies completeness.
   → Nothing of deity is lacking in Christ.
4. τῆς θεότητος (tēs theotētos) – from theotēs, meaning “the state of being God,” divine essence.
   Distinct from theiotēs (Rom 1:20), which means “divine nature” or “divinity” in a more abstract sense.
   → Theotēs = full, essential Godhood. Paul is affirming that Christ possesses the complete divine nature, not merely divine attributes.
5. σωματικῶς (sōmatikōs) – adverb meaning “bodily,” i.e., in corporeal form.
   It modifies κατοικεῖ, describing the manner in which the fullness of deity resides: in bodily form.
   This directly opposes Gnostic or docetic ideas that denied the real, physical embodiment of divine fullness in Christ.

A more careful reading of what I wrote would show you that I never said the Holy Spirit sent anything. The Spirit came because the Father and Son in unity sent him, just as Jesus was sent and came. It is what the each of those persons was sent to do and did that is the focus and that shows a Trune God redeeming. The Father did not come as one of us and die on the cross, The Son who is also the very essence of God did that work. Jesus did not apply the work that he did to individuals. The Holy Spirit who is also the very essence of God but a distinct he who acts, and feel, and speaks, applies that work to whoever the Father sends him to for the purpose of joining him to Christ through faith. He does this by changing their hard hearts that are at enmity with him, into pliable soft hearts who love him, cloaking them in the righteousness of the Son so that they can come near him---before his very throne. Jesus refers to it as being born again, born of God. We begin born in Adam, a horrible rebellios sinner, and are reborn by the grace of God, in Christ.

Move away from the treacherous borderlands of Gnosticism. To deny Christ's actual and real deity is to deny who he really is.

I know Jesus and He knows me. I know from above He is all that the Father is. We will disagree in how that is so and leave it at that.
Peace

 

[Paul]

But John says that all things were made by Him (the Word, the Son) and John emphasises "all things" by adding "and without Him nothing was made that was made." He doesn't say, "In the beginning God created the Word, and the Word created all other things

Yet Jesus calls Him Father.
Such a being as you describe cannot be a Son nor have a God.
You have His statement that His Father is the only true God and is greater than all including Himself. He uses truth. Truth doesn't change.

So, when it states through Him all things were made it does not mean His own spirit. Just as when it states all things were put under Him does not mean God Himself who put all things under Him.

Ask Him who is the greater. James 1:5

From whom is this gift?

The one who is victorious I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will they leave it. I will write on them the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on them my new name.

About the Son.
You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions by anointing you with the oil of joy.”

About God
“You are worthy, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for you created all things, and by your will they were created and have their being.”

About the Son not just about the Christ
In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2;but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.

Not named the church of Christ or the church of God but very specifically the church of the Firstborn.

The beginning of the creation of God. The Firstborn of all creation.
The beginning of the resurrection. The firstborn from the dead.

For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love

Gods plan of salvation existed before the world began, The Son was chosen before the world began not at the incarnation.
Col 1:19 -from the will of another

God Himself brought the Firstborn into the world and commanded all His angels to bow to Him. Why the need as according to you the Son is Yahweh?
And again, when God brings the firstborn into the world, he says,
“Let all God’s angels worship him.”

 

[Arial]

Yet Jesus calls Him Father.
Such a being as you describe cannot be a Son nor have a God.
You have His statement that His Father is the only true God and is greater than all including Himself. He uses truth. Truth doesn't change.

So, when it states through Him all things were made it does not mean His own spirit.

Then the Bible lied when it said all things.

Why Jesus is the Son, and why he calls God his Father and his God.

It is a revelation of the eternal relationship within the Godhead, between distinct persons who share one Divine essence.

The ontological Trinity (who God is in Himself, apart from creation.

• The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are co-equal and co-eternal.
• :Father" and "Son" describe eternal relations of origin within the divine being (not roles that began in time).
• The Father is unbegotten (the source of deity).
• The Son is eternally begotten (monogenes, John 1:14,18) not created but proceeding from the Father's very essence.
• The Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son.

WHen Jesus calls God FAther he is revealing his own divine personhood as eternally related to the Father as Son. Not by creation, but by nature, He is of the same essence as the Father. There was never a "before" when the Father was not Father or the Son not Son.

The Economic Trinity (how God acts in creation and redemption).

• In the incarnation, the eternal Son takes on human nature and becomes Jesus.
• It is in this sense that Jesus calls God "Father". As the incarnate Son, he truly lives as a man in filial obedience and dependence on the Father.
• This reflects his real humanity and the functional order within the Trinity. The Father sends, the Son I sent and accomplishes redemption, the Holy Spirit applies the work.

In time, as God the Son with us as Jesus, Jesus filial relationship is expressed through prayer, obedience, and trust (John 5:19,30:17:1). This temporal obedience mirrors and reveals his eternal Sonship. He eternally receives from the Father. In that relationship in the incarnation is displayed within human history. In addition he models the filial relationship believers are brought into by adoption. "My Father and your Father, my God and your God" (John 20:17).

 

[Josheb]

He is before all other things created. He is the Firstborn of all creation. God the Father existed before the creation and Jesus was begotten of the Father before all other things.

No one questions your ability to parrot scripture. It is your understanding of what you parrot that is being called into question. It's your religious doctrinally biased learning that is being called into question. You've just quoted a few different verses. Good for you. Now reason through what God has revealed to us.

• Jesus is before all created things.
• Jesus is the firstborn of all creation.
• The Father existed prior to creation (which is really irrelevant to this conversation because we're discussing the Son).
• Jesus was begotten of the Father (which isn't actually scripture because the Greek used is "monogenous").
• Jesus was genesised solely by God before all things.

That is what you've just posted.

Are those five bullet points ALL he is?

Please answer the question asked. Please do not avoid answering the question asked. Please do not obfuscate in any way. ALL that is being asked of you at this point is are those five points all that is Jesus. I expect a simple yes or no answer, but you can add any commentary you think relevant as long as the question asked is actually answered and you keep commentary relevant to your answer.

Are those five points all that Jesus is?

 

[Arial]

About the Son not just about the Christ

You don't think the Son is the Christ (Messiah)? The majority of the Jews made that same disastrous mistake.

Not named the church of Christ or the church of God but very specifically the church of the Firstborn.

The beginning of the creation of God. The Firstborn of all creation.
The beginning of the resurrection. The firstborn from the dead.

Col 1:15-17 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions of rulers or authorities---all things were created through him and for him. And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, and in everything he might be preeminent. For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven making peace by the blood of his cross.

Firstborn:
4416 prōtótokos (from 4413 /prṓtos, "first, pre-eminent" and 5088 /tíktō, "bring forth") – properly, first in time (Mt 1:25; Lk 2:7); hence, pre-eminent (Col 1:15; Rev 1:5).

4416 /prōtótokos ("firstly") specifically refers to Christ as the first to experience glorification, i.e. at His resurrection (see Heb 12:23; Rev 1:5). For this (and countless other reasons) Jesus is "preeminent" (4416 /prōtótokos) – the unequivocal Sovereign over all creation (Col 1:16).

[4416 (prōtótokos) refers to "the first among others (who follow)" – as with the preeminent, glorified Christ, the eternal Logos who possesses self-existent life (Jn 5:26).]

The Son was chosen before the world began not at the incarnation.
Col 1:19 -from the will of another

The Son existed before the world began, was with God and was God and became flesh (Jesus) in the incarnation. John 1.

God Himself brought the Firstborn into the world

God sent the Son into the world and the Son willingly came from the Father (John 17) in the incarnation, into the realm of time and history. Now why does the Bible refer to Jesus as the incarnate Son if there was a time when he was not incarnate but with the Father?

and commanded all His angels to bow to Him. Why the need as according to you the Son is Yahweh?
And again, when God brings the firstborn into the world, he says,
“Let all God’s angels worship him.”

Because if he is not Yahweh then God has commanded everyone to do something he also commanded them to not do. That is, to worship no one but him. If Jesus is not Yahweh, then God has commanded men and angels to worship a creature (a created being).

 

[Paul]

No one questions your ability to parrot scripture. It is your understanding of what you parrot that is being called into question. It's your religious doctrinally biased learning that is being called into question. You've just quoted a few different verses. Good for you. Now reason through what God has revealed to us.

• Jesus is before all created things.
• Jesus is the firstborn of all creation.
• The Father existed prior to creation (which is really irrelevant to this conversation because we're discussing the Son).
• Jesus was begotten of the Father (which isn't actually scripture because the Greek used is "monogenous").
• Jesus was genesised solely by God before all things.

That is what you've just posted.

Are those five bullet points ALL he is?

Please answer the question asked. Please do not avoid answering the question asked. Please do not obfuscate in any way. ALL that is being asked of you at this point is are those five points all that is Jesus. I expect a simple yes or no answer, but you can add any commentary you think relevant as long as the question asked is actually answered and you keep commentary relevant to your answer.

Are those five points all that Jesus is?

Jesus is before the Father?
Yes or no

 

[Josheb]

Please answer the question asked. Please do not avoid answering the question asked. Please do not obfuscate in any way. ALL that is being asked of you at this point is are those five points all that is Jesus. I expect a simple yes or no answer, but you can add any commentary you think relevant as long as the question asked is actually answered and you keep commentary relevant to your answer.

Are those five points all that Jesus is?

Jesus is before the Father?
Yes or no

Post #133 does exactly what I asked you not to do!!!

• It does not answer the question asked.
• Failing to answer the question asked, it does NOT move the conversation forward.
• It asks a question already answered!
• It avoids answering the question asked in favor of obfuscation.
• Btw, I have asked you a couple of other questions and none of them have been answered, either.

I would answer your question, but you'll first have to explain what you mean by "before." Jesus' existence does not occur prior to the Father's existence, so if that is what you mean then the answer is no. Jesus laid aside all claims of equality with God prior to his becoming a bondservant and he will eventually present all the kingdoms over which he is King and Lord to God so if that is what you mean by "before," then the answer is yes. Jesus is before all created things, but God is not created. What we are discussing is the (inherent) divinity of the Son, not his ordinal or normative place relevant in creation to the Father. Perhaps that's part of the problem. Do you correctly understand what is being discussed when the subject of Christ's divinity is the subject?

I would answer your question but doing so would potentially establish a precedent whereby you think you can ask all the questions and never answer any.

I would answer your question but I'm waiting on you to answer the question that was previously asked: Are those five points ALL that Jesus is? Please answer the question asked.


Are those five points ALL that Jesus is?



.

 

[Josheb]

I know Jesus and He knows me. I know from above He is all that the Father is. We will disagree in how that is so and leave it at that.
Peace

Hmmm... Jesus is ALL that the Father is. Are the logically necessary consequences of that statement correctly understood?

If Jesus is everything that the Father is, then what, specifically, is the point of dispute? You seem to be asserting Jesus was made into a god, or that Jesus was made into God, the God that already existed, the Father, and prior to that making he was either something other than all that is the Father or non-existent. At the risk of asking another question that won't get answered, would you lease clarify, in your own words, your position in a single sentence?

 

[Paul]

You don't think the Son is the Christ (Messiah)? The majority of the Jews made that same disastrous mistake.

Col 1:15-17 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions of rulers or authorities---all things were created through him and for him. And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, and in everything he might be preeminent. For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven making peace by the blood of his cross.

He is the image of the invisible God. He is not the invisible God.
He is Firstborn in the creation and resurrection and has the preeminence in both events.
The fullness was pleased to dwell in Him by the will of another who defined His being.
God did make all things by/through and FOR Him.

Firstborn:
4416 prōtótokos (from 4413 /prṓtos, "first, pre-eminent" and 5088 /tíktō, "bring forth") – properly, first in time (Mt 1:25; Lk 2:7); hence, pre-eminent (Col 1:15; Rev 1:5).

Jesus is also the Firstborn from the dead. (First to rise from the dead) Hello?

4416 /prōtótokos ("firstly") specifically refers to Christ as the first to experience glorification, i.e. at His resurrection (see Heb 12:23; Rev 1:5). For this (and countless other reasons) Jesus is "preeminent" (4416 /prōtótokos) – the unequivocal Sovereign over all creation (Col 1:16).

The Father has glorified His Son with oneness and Sovereign authority.

[4416 (prōtótokos) refers to "the first among others (who follow)" – as with the preeminent, glorified Christ, the eternal Logos who possesses self-existent life (Jn 5:26).]

Strong's Greek: 4416. πρωτότοκος (prototokos) -- Firstborn

God sent the Son into the world and the Son willingly came from the Father (John 17) in the incarnation, into the realm of time and history. Now why does the Bible refer to Jesus as the incarnate Son if there was a time when he was not incarnate but with the Father?

The Father did send and give His Son so man may not perish.

Because if he is not Yahweh then God has commanded everyone to do something he also commanded them to not do. That is, to worship no one but him. If Jesus is not Yahweh, then God has commanded men and angels to worship a creature (a created being).

Nonsense, He who loves the Son is loved by the Father and to believe in His Son and bow down to His Christ is commanded by God. Obeying God is not sin.

God gave -why the need and note who the command is coming from?
Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

God gave Does Yahweh need to receive authority from any other? His Son did receive from His God and Father.
Psalm 2
Ask me,
and I will make the nations your inheritance,
the ends of the earth your possession.

The Son of Man returning with the clouds of heaven just as Jesus stated at His trial -2nd coming

Daniel 7
“In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

Jesus calls His Father the only true God.

You did not read this from HIM.
This is eternal life that they know us the only true God.

 

[Josheb]

Nonsense, He who loves the Son is loved by the Father and to believe in His Son and bow down to His Christ is commanded by God. Obeying God is not sin.

Her point is that you've got God issuing contradictory commands and, even when a person loves the Son it does not and cannot take the place of worshiping God OR violating the first of the Ten Commandments.

Exodus 20:3-4
You shall have no other gods before Me. You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth. You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God...

The only basis for worshiping Jesus is an inherent divinity (and attributed divinity is insufficient for skirting the commands of God). We cannot worship Jesus in any way (not even in fealty) if he's not also God. Jesus cannot ask for, or command fealty if it at any time or place replaces or joins fealty to the Father unless Jesus is, in fact God. Jesus cannot ontologically lay claim to any divine attribute without instantly become apostate, a heretic, and imperfect. He can say "I have 'X,'" but never "I am 'X'." The minute he (or any of the NT writers) do so he's become self-contradictory and we, thereby, have no Savior.


Now how about backing up and answering the question asked in Post 131? Are the five points you posted in Post 128 all that Jesus is?

 

[JesusFan]

No
God's firstborn is a being, and such a being would make such a statement. "Before Abraham was born I am"

When he stated I Am was he claiming there to be Yahweh in human flesh?

 

[JesusFan]

Born from the Father alone before all ages. His spirit was formed as the first of Gods works, the beginning of the creation of God. A beginning at some point in history before the world began. A Son. God oldest child. God's firstborn.

So you see Him as a JW dos? First created, a god, but not the God?

 

[Paul]

Her point is that you've got God issuing contradictory commands and, even when a person loves the Son it does not and cannot take the place of worshiping God OR violating the first of the Ten Commandments.

Exodus 20:3-4
You shall have no other gods before Me. You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth. You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God...

The only basis for worshiping Jesus is an inherent divinity (and attributed divinity is insufficient for skirting the commands of God). We cannot worship Jesus in any way (not even in fealty) if he's not also God. Jesus cannot ask for, or command fealty if it at any time or place replaces or joins fealty to the Father unless Jesus is, in fact God. Jesus cannot ontologically lay claim to any divine attribute without instantly become apostate, a heretic, and imperfect. He can say "I have 'X,'" but never "I am 'X'." The minute he (or any of the NT writers) do so he's become self-contradictory and we, thereby, have no Savior.


Now how about backing up and answering the question asked in Post 131? Are the five points you posted in Post 128 all that Jesus is?

You don't get to set terms. Clearly Jesus is not before the Father. So you made a exception to He is before all things.

So did I.