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All means all

Yeah, all the same, although 'Spiritual Israel' is a phrase I generally avoid.

Baptism is the adoption ceremony.
Well, I agree with the baptizing of infants. You might say, they are baptized into the visible church, not necessarily spiritual Israel.
 
Guess there's not many of our Great, Great, Great, Great, Great, Great, Great, Great, Great, Great ancestors in heaven.
While getting OFF-TOPIC, it is worth passing on an observation that was made by another:
  • Sin is a transgression of the Law of God.
  • God gave the Law to Israel through Moses.
  • The gentiles were never given the Law or under the Covenant.
God may hold our ancestors to a different standard.
(Paul said the Law brought DEATH, not LIFE.)

Romans 9:15 NASB20] For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOMEVER I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL SHOW COMPASSION TO WHOMEVER I SHOW COMPASSION."

"Whomever" means "whomever" ... ball is in God's court.
 
Respectfully, few posts stand up to review.
Most don't get reviewed, especially not exegetically.
Most are merely "liked" by those that already agreed [both sides of any issue].

To withstand review, someone (anyone) must:
  • state a premise
  • offer Scriptural support
  • exegete the scripture to logically present your argument
  • defend your argument against counterarguments that:
    • offer Scriptural support
    • exegete the scripture
Then a post has both been reviewed and stood up to review.
Yep.
[We could use a few good Formal Debates to demonstrate how to argue soundly and politely.]
Yep.
 
Well, I agree with the baptizing of infants. You might say, they are baptized into the visible church, not necessarily spiritual Israel.
I don't think I understood what you said. What does infant baptism have to do with anything?

You don't think baptism is an adoption? Doesn't "born again" imply new parents?
 
I don't think I understood what you said. What does infant baptism have to do with anything?

You don't think baptism is an adoption? Doesn't "born again" imply new parents?
Well, I do not agree that scripture teaches baptismal regeneration if that is what you are saying.
 
But a majority of people don't agree that it is a fallacy.
*ducks and runs for cover*
LOL! Was the irony of that post intended? (gotta stick an emoji in there so I know) ;)

Blessedly, rules are rules, and the rules don't care what people think about them. The rules of sound exegesis are well-established, long held, and do not vary much from hermeneutic to hermeneutic or doctrine to doctrine. Likewise, the rules of logic are well-established and long held and they are not relative at all from person to person to person. Both have their origins in the Creator's design, and neither should be avoided intra-personally or inter-personally.
 
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Well, I do not agree that scripture teaches baptismal regeneration if that is what you are saying.
That's not what I'm saying. It seems we are having a hard time communicating.

I believe baptism is an adoption ceremony. The baptizee is "born again" with new heredity. Adoption is pre-requisite for salvation, because salvation is given to Abraham and his descendants.

This doesn't make the water salvic, or imply that it does anything to the baptizee to re-generate them. The ceremony is just a demonstration, mainly for the benefit of the audience, showing them that the person is now "one of us."

-Jarrod
 
That's not what I'm saying. It seems we are having a hard time communicating.

I believe baptism is an adoption ceremony. The baptizee is "born again" with new heredity. Adoption is pre-requisite for salvation, because salvation is given to Abraham and his descendants.

This doesn't make the water salvic, or imply that it does anything to the baptizee to re-generate them. The ceremony is just a demonstration, mainly for the benefit of the audience, showing them that the person is now "one of us."

-Jarrod
As part of the physical church. I agree.
 
It matters not how I reconcile Romans 8 and 9. I only have to read in God's word that He tells us that He wants none to perish. (I listed some of the verses that tells us that.) If your view of Romans 8 and 9 can be reconciled with the view that God does actually want some to perish, then perhaps it is how you have reconciled them wrongly.
How do you reconcile the verses that say God does not want any to perish with the fact that most people do perish?

If all of the Bible is God's word then we must take all of it into account, not a couple of scriptures that appeal to us and fit the image of Him we wish to build.
 
Do you see the irony in that comment?
No, do I need to also get that same approval from a Mormon? Or a Muslim? Or a JW? Or is just you and folks who believe as you do.
 
LOL! Was the irony of that post intended? (gotta stick an emoji in there so I know)
Good point. (no emoji)
I'm impressed by your posts (no emoji ... which will be default from now on)
 
How do you reconcile the verses that say God does not want any to perish with the fact that most people do perish?

If all of the Bible is God's word then we must take all of it into account, not a couple of scriptures that appeal to us and fit the image of Him we wish to build.
Have you counted all those perishing?

`After these things I Looked, and behold, a great multitude which NO ONE COULD NUMBER, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb......These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation and washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.` (Rev. 7: 9 & 14)
 
While getting OFF-TOPIC, it is worth passing on an observation that was made by another:
  • Sin is a transgression of the Law of God.
  • God gave the Law to Israel through Moses.
  • The gentiles were never given the Law or under the Covenant.
God may hold our ancestors to a different standard.
(Paul said the Law brought DEATH, not LIFE.)

Romans 9:15 NASB20] For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOMEVER I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL SHOW COMPASSION TO WHOMEVER I SHOW COMPASSION."

"Whomever" means "whomever" ... ball is in God's court.
The Gentiles were also included in God's people. As Jesus said:

Luk 4:25-27 But I tell you truly, many widows were in Israel in the days of Elijah, when the heaven was shut up three years and six months, and there was a great famine throughout all the land; but to none of them was Elijah sent except to Zarephath, in the region of Sidon, to a woman who was a widow. And many lepers were in Israel in the time of Elisha the prophet, and none of them was cleansed except Naaman the Syrian."

2Ki 5:17 So Naaman said, "Then, if not, please let your servant be given two mule-loads of earth; for your servant will no longer offer either burnt offering or sacrifice to other gods, but to the LORD.

Naaman will be in heaven as too will any who receive the LORD.
 
Forget Calvin. The point is that there is a large part of the Christian community today that teaches what is presented in the opening post. And it is wrong. It presents God as a despicable ogre who created this physical universe for the primary purpose of assigning the vast quantity of human beings to eternal condemnation.
What a ridiculous thing to say:

God creating man, knowing that the majority will choose to reject Him falls in the same category you portray Him in.

A God who is incompetent to ensure no people perish, is a depiction of a despicable ogre, who created this universe knowing that the vast majority of His creation will be assigned to condemnation because He failed them.
 
Calvin said the exact same thing. Does that surprise you? It took me 37 seconds to call up the text in question, click on Calvin's commentary, scroll down to the relevant verses and copy and paste Calvin's words into this post. There is no excuse for the openly sentences of this op. There's no excuse for not checking Calvin's commentary on the 1 Timothy 2 text before posting.

Calvin's commentary on 1 Timothy 2:3-6 reads, in part, as follows,

"The universal term all must always be referred to classes: of men, and not to persons; as if he had said, that not only Jews, but Gentiles also, not only persons of humble rank, but princes also, were redeemed by the death of Christ. Since, therefore, he wishes the benefit of his death to be common to all, an insult is offered to him by those who, by their opinion, shut out any person from the hope of salvation."


Calvin explicitly stated his opposition to those who argued the Timothy text excluded anyone. All classes of men are included. Calvin explicitly stated it was an "insult" to shut out anyone from the hope of salvation.


Therefore, this opening post is demonstrably incorrect. Either someone taught you wrongly, falsely about Calvinism, or you are the one solely responsible for the mistakes made in this op. Either way, correction is warranted. Calvinism does not teach God caused anyone to sin or chose them or destruction apart from their free will.

Will you now acknowledge what Calvin is shown to have written? Will you now do the factually correct thing and the morally right thing and acknowledge Calvin did, in fact and truth, teach 1 Timothy 2:3-6 teaches no one should be excluded from the hope of the gospel - "all" does mean all?
I have been reading some Calvin, and I am not wrong. I was correct in what I said.

INSTITUTES OF THE CHRISTIAN RELIGION
By John Calvin

Book 3. Chapter 21
Chapter 21. Of the eternal election, by which God has predestinated some to salvation, and others to destruction.

5. The predestination by which God adopts some to the hope of life, and adjudges others to eternal death, no man who would be thought pious ventures simply to deny; but it is greatly caviled at, especially by those who make prescience its cause. ... By predestination we mean the eternal decree of God, by which he determined with himself whatever he wished to happen with regard to every man. All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestinated to life or to death.
 
What a ridiculous thing to say:

God creating man, knowing that the majority will choose to reject Him falls in the same category you portray Him in.

A God who is incompetent to ensure no people perish, is a depiction of a despicable ogre, who created this universe knowing that the vast majority of His creation will be assigned to condemnation because He failed them.
The fact is God has rules, about the level of righteousness needed to inherit eternal life. He laid down the plan before creation, and the parameters for life. But God did not know that man would be as wicked as he became. As we see in Genesis, He regretted making man.

Gen 6:5-8 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. So the LORD said, "I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them." But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

This shows that the LORD did not expect people to act wickedly. He was so grieved by it that He wished He never created man. Yet we are saved (besides the cross) in showing goodness to one another. A thing that God requires.

Mat 7:12-13 Therefore, whatever you want men to do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets. "Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it.
 
The Gentiles were also included in God's people. As Jesus said:

Luk 4:25-27 But I tell you truly, many widows were in Israel in the days of Elijah, when the heaven was shut up three years and six months, and there was a great famine throughout all the land; but to none of them was Elijah sent except to Zarephath, in the region of Sidon, to a woman who was a widow. And many lepers were in Israel in the time of Elisha the prophet, and none of them was cleansed except Naaman the Syrian."

2Ki 5:17 So Naaman said, "Then, if not, please let your servant be given two mule-loads of earth; for your servant will no longer offer either burnt offering or sacrifice to other gods, but to the LORD.

Naaman will be in heaven as too will any who receive the LORD.
The question is ... was Naaman under the LAW of Moses? Was it a sin punishable by death for Naman to shave or wear a linen-wool blend tunic?
Was it a sin for any Native American to wear a cotton-wool blend at the time of Elisha?
... or is the LAW only for those to whom it was given?
 
The fact is God has rules, about the level of righteousness needed to inherit eternal life.
I will cut you off right here.

You are admitting that you have a works righteousness faith by the above!

Can you show us scripture verses that portray different levels of righteousness and that those with a higher level of righteousness are the ones who inherit eternal life!
 
I have been reading some Calvin, and I am not wrong. I was correct in what I said.

INSTITUTES OF THE CHRISTIAN RELIGION
By John Calvin

Book 3. Chapter 21
Chapter 21. Of the eternal election, by which God has predestinated some to salvation, and others to destruction.

5. The predestination by which God adopts some to the hope of life, and adjudges others to eternal death, no man who would be thought pious ventures simply to deny; but it is greatly caviled at, especially by those who make prescience its cause. ... By predestination we mean the eternal decree of God, by which he determined with himself whatever he wished to happen with regard to every man. All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestinated to life or to death.
Kudos for quoting support.
(I am not a fan of Calvin as the DEFINER of Calvinism, he is just one of many reformers.)
The 1689 Baptist Confession of Faith states it differently to clarify that SALVATION and REPROBATION are not equal and opposite actions by God.
 
I will cut you off right here.

You are admitting that you have a works righteousness faith by the above!

Can you show us scripture verses that portray different levels of righteousness and that those with a higher level of righteousness are the ones who inherit eternal life!
The works thing usually is related to the belief it is possible to lose salvation.
 
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