All means all

[Dave_Regenerated]

It matters not how I reconcile Romans 8 and 9. I only have to read in God's word that He tells us that He wants none to perish. (I listed some of the verses that tells us that.) If your view of Romans 8 and 9 can be reconciled with the view that God does actually want some to perish, then perhaps it is how you have reconciled them wrongly.

Isn't there a specific word fallacy for when someone asks a question to someone and that person then throws the question back at them without answering it?

 

[JIM]

Isn't there a specific word fallacy for when someone asks a question to someone and that person then throws the question back at them without answering it?

I think I did answer you. A proper understanding of Romans 8 and 9 does not conflict with God's word stating that He would have all men to be saved and none to be lost.

 

[fastfredy0]

Apparently you value spiritually dead humanity in some way that God does not,

LOL ... I like that ... dead on.

I appreciate what you say so often that I think I need an auto-LIKE added to the software to save me time.

 

[Dave_Regenerated]

I think I did answer you. A proper understanding of Romans 8 and 9 does not conflict with God's word stating that He would have all men to be saved and none to be lost.

Help me to understand what a proper understanding of Romans 8 and 9 is, please. I am asking you to explain it. It shouldn't be hard to do that.

 

[fastfredy0]

If God knows that by creating you, you will end up in hell (and nothing can change what he knows), how has God not determined you will end up in hell by creating you? Note: God determined to bring you into existence and He upholds all things. He could have determined that you not be hell bound by not creating you. If you believe God can do anything then God could have created you so you would choose to belief. If you admit God can do this then you are admitting God is the ultimate determiner.

John 1:12 But to as many as did receive and welcome Him, He gave the right [the authority, the privilege] to become children of God, that is, to those who believe in (adhere to, trust in, and rely on) His name— 13 who were born, not of blood [natural conception], nor of the will of the flesh [physical impulse/free will], nor of the will of man [that of a natural father], but of God [that is, a divine and supernatural birth—they are born of God—spiritually transformed, renewed, sanctified]. Not only do the verses state we are “born again” by the will of God, but to put aside all doubt it doubles down and says man is NOT saved by man’s will.

 

[Dave_Regenerated]

If God knows that by creating you, you will end up in hell (and nothing can change what he knows), how has God not determined you will end up in hell by creating you? Note: God determined to bring you into existence and He upholds all things. He could have determined that you not be hell bound by not creating you. If you believe God can do anything then God could have created you so you would choose to belief. If you admit God can do this then you are admitting God is the ultimate determiner.

John 1:12 But to as many as did receive and welcome Him, He gave the right [the authority, the privilege] to become children of God, that is, to those who believe in (adhere to, trust in, and rely on) His name— 13 who were born, not of blood [natural conception], nor of the will of the flesh [physical impulse/free will], nor of the will of man [that of a natural father], but of God [that is, a divine and supernatural birth—they are born of God—spiritually transformed, renewed, sanctified]. Not only do the verses state we are “born again” by the will of God, but to put aside all doubt it doubles down and says man is NOT saved by man’s will.

I honestly don't understand people who say it is the power of our own faith that saves us who then turn around and say God saved them. It's completely contradictory.

 

[ReverendRV]

If God knows that by creating you, you will end up in hell (and nothing can change what he knows), how has God not determined you will end up in hell by creating you? Note: God determined to bring you into existence and He upholds all things. He could have determined that you not be hell bound by not creating you. If you believe God can do anything then God could have created you so you would choose to belief. If you admit God can do this then you are admitting God is the ultimate determiner.

John 1:12 But to as many as did receive and welcome Him, He gave the right [the authority, the privilege] to become children of God, that is, to those who believe in (adhere to, trust in, and rely on) His name— 13 who were born, not of blood [natural conception], nor of the will of the flesh [physical impulse/free will], nor of the will of man [that of a natural father], but of God [that is, a divine and supernatural birth—they are born of God—spiritually transformed, renewed, sanctified]. Not only do the verses state we are “born again” by the will of God, but to put aside all doubt it doubles down and says man is NOT saved by man’s will.

It's similar to someone saying God is Culpable for Sin because he sent Satan to the Garden of Eden. We cannot get away with God having a smidge to do with whatever goes on here. Even if God is just one Link of the Chain, he has Determined something; therefore everything...

When E.F. Hutton talks, everyone listens...

When God is one Link, every Link follows. When every Link follows...

 

[fastfredy0]

I honestly don't understand people who say it is the power of our own faith that saves us who then turn around and say God saved them. It's completely contradictory.

Well, that's synergism ... God and man work together to save man.
Maybe when such a person gets to heaven God and him can give each other a HIGH FIVE.

Job 35:7 “If you are righteous, what do you give God,
Or what does He receive from your hand?
8 “Your wickedness affects only a man such as you,
And your righteousness affects only [a]a son of man [but it cannot affect God, who is sovereign].

 

[David1701]

It really depends on how you see God. If you see Him as the God who desires all to be saved, but some are unwilling. As is shown by Jesus's words here.

No, it does not depend upon how we see God. It depends upon what the Bible says.

The Bible is very clear that God does not desire to save every single person, otherwise every single person would be saved.

"Luke 13:34 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, but you were not willing!"

I've quoted the verse you quoted, although you didn't say which translation you used. Now I'll show you, simply and clearly, that is doesn't mean what you think it means.

1) There are three sets of people mentioned here: Jerusalem (i.e. its religious rulers, the Pharisees and Saducees); the "children" (i.e. those who were ruled over);and Jesus himself.

2) Jesus wanted to gather to himself, not every single person, but those who were ruled over in general.

3) The Pharisees and Saducees were unwilling for this to happen, as was seen throughout Jesus' ministry.

4) In spite of this opposition, as we know from elsewhere, everyone the Father gave to Jesus did (and does) come to Jesus, and will be raised up at the last day.

John 6:37-39 (KJV)
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

John 6:43,44 (KJV)
43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Then Paul's words can be seen as stressing that God had a salvation plan for mankind that was hidden from creation. If God truly loves the world as John 3:16 says, then He has preferred or chosen salvation for all those who will follow Him, before creation. In Christ, He has chosen life for us, but our response is still needed. It is a pretty big statement to say God essentially forces life or death on people, especially if His heart is for their salvation.

God has chosen a people, not a plan!

Rom. 8:28-30 (KJV)
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

A) The meaning of "foreknow", when referring to people, as it is here, is "choose beforehand".

Foreknow (proginosko)

BDAG:
προγινώσκω

1. to know beforehand or in advance, have foreknowledge (of) τί someth.
Hs 7:5. Abs., in advance 2 Pt 3:17.

2. choose beforehand τινά someone Ro 8:29., 11:2, Pass. of Christ προεγνωσμένος πρὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου 1 Pt 1:20.—Know from time past προγινώσκοντές με ἄνωθεν Ac 26:5.

B) As you can see, when referring to someone (as contrasted with something), foreknow means "choose beforehand". This leads to the following meaning: whom (people, not plan) God chose beforehand, he predestinated (decided the destiny of, in advance) to be conformed to the image of his Son; whom he predestined, he also called; whom he called, he also justified (declared righteous); whom he justified, he also glorified (i.e. resurrected - this hasn't happened yet, but it's so certain, because God has ordained it, that it's treated as if it has).

 

[David1701]

...

What you fail to understand is that God does actually desire that all sinners be saved (1 Timothy 2:4; 2 Peter 3:9; Ezekiel 18:23; Matthew 23:37). If what you believe is true, then all such statements are lies. The doctrine that you profess has a god that imputes the sin of one man onto all mankind and then corrects the result of that imputation for only some. The only conclusion to such a teaching is that some if not all of those lost are the direct result of God's actions and thus God's fault. Such is what you teach.

What you fail to understand is the meaning of all those verses you've cited, without even quoting them, never mind including the context. Not one of them supports your man-centred false teaching.

1 Tim. 2:1-6 (WEB)
1 I exhort therefore, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercessions, and givings of thanks, be made for all men:
2 for kings and all who are in high places; that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and reverence.
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior;
4 who desires all people to be saved and come to full knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
6 who gave himself as a ransom for all; the testimony in its own times;

In verse 1, we see the first mention of "all men", in this context. The very next verse shows the correct interpretation of "all men" here: "all categories of men" (the examples given are "kings" and those in "high places" - categories, not individuals). This is the context of verse 4, in which "all people" means "all categories of people", not every single person. The same goes for "ransom for all", in verse 6.

This is why context is so important, and, I suspect, why freewillers usually omit it.

2 Pet. 3: 8,9 (WEB)
8 But don’t forget this one thing, beloved, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slow concerning his promise, as some count slowness; but is patient with us, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Again, the immediate context is vital. Verse 8 shows that Peter is referring to God's beloved elect. The Lord is not slow concerning his promises to his beloved, but is patient with us, not willing that any of us should perish, but that all of us should come to repentance. This is a wonderful encouragement to God's people; but, freewillers (omitting the context) turn it into pathetic, hand-wringing wishful thinking, on God's part.

Later on, in the same passage, it's confirmed that this is a promise for those whom God has chosen to salvation and that it's certain to happen.

2 Pet. 3:15 (WEB) Regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also, according to the wisdom given to him, wrote to you;

This patience that God shows to us (verse 9 - his beloved elect) is salvation, as contrasted with his patience towards those who are not elect, which is merely putting up with their wickedness long enough to fulfil his purposes.

Ez. 18: 20-24 (WEB)
20 The soul who sins, he shall die: the son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son; the righteousness of the righteous shall be on him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be on him.
21 But if the wicked turn from all his sins that he has committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
22 None of his transgressions that he has committed shall be remembered against him: in his righteousness that he has done he shall live.
23 Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked? says the Lord Yahweh; and not rather that he should return from his way, and live?
24 But when the righteous turns away from his righteousness, and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? None of his righteous deeds that he has done shall be remembered: in his trespass that he has trespassed, and in his sin that he has sinned, in them shall he die.

Note that this is to Israel, under law. The law is all about, "Do this and live; do that and die.". We are not under law, but under grace, in the New Covenant, and, anyway, salvation has never been by attempting to keep the law.

Regarding verse 23, in particular: God tells them that he doesn't want them to be put to death, for law-breaking, but to turn back to law-keeping and live. This has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with salvation by grace through faith.

Matt. 23: 29-37 (WEB)
29 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you build the tombs of the prophets, and decorate the tombs of the righteous,
30 and say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we wouldn’t have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.’
31 Therefore you testify to yourselves that you are children of those who killed the prophets.
32 Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers.
33 You serpents, you offspring of vipers, how will you escape the judgment of Gehenna ?
34 Therefore, behold, I send to you prophets, wise men, and scribes. Some of them you will kill and crucify; and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city;
35 that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zachariah son of Barachiah, whom you killed between the sanctuary and the altar.
36 Most certainly I tell you, all these things will come upon this generation.
37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets, and stones those who are sent to her! How often I would have gathered your children together, even as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you would not!

This is towards the end of a long list of stern rebukes to the Pharisees and Saducees.

Re. verse 37: I've recently explained this verse, in a different post, so I'll just repeat some of that post here.

1) There are three sets of people mentioned here: Jerusalem (i.e. its religious rulers, the Pharisees and Saducees); the "children" (i.e. those who were ruled over);and Jesus himself.

2) Jesus wanted to gather to himself, not every single person, but those who were ruled over in general.

3) The Pharisees and Saducees were unwilling for this to happen, as was seen throughout Jesus' ministry.

4) In spite of this opposition, as we know from elsewhere, everyone the Father gave to Jesus did (and does) come to Jesus, and will be raised up at the last day.

John 6:37-39 (KJV)
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

John 6:43,44 (KJV)
43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

 

[Dave_Regenerated]

What you fail to understand is the meaning of all those verses you've cited, without even quoting them, never mind including the context. Not one of them supports your man-centred false teaching.

1 Tim. 2:1-6 (WEB)
1 I exhort therefore, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercessions, and givings of thanks, be made for all men:
2 for kings and all who are in high places; that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and reverence.
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior;
4 who desires all people to be saved and come to full knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
6 who gave himself as a ransom for all; the testimony in its own times;

In verse 1, we see the first mention of "all men", in this context. The very next verse shows the correct interpretation of "all men" here: "all categories of men" (the examples given are "kings" and those in "high places" - categories, not individuals). This is the context of verse 4, in which "all people" means "all categories of people", not every single person. The same goes for "ransom for all", in verse 6.

This is why context is so important, and, I suspect, why freewillers usually omit it.

2 Pet. 3: 8,9 (WEB)
8 But don’t forget this one thing, beloved, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slow concerning his promise, as some count slowness; but is patient with us, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Again, the immediate context is vital. Verse 8 shows that Peter is referring to God's beloved elect. The Lord is not slow concerning his promises to his beloved, but is patient with us, not willing that any of us should perish, but that all of us should come to repentance. This is a wonderful encouragement to God's people; but, freewillers (omitting the context) turn it into pathetic, hand-wringing wishful thinking, on God's part.

Later on, in the same passage, it's confirmed that this is a promise for those whom God has chosen to salvation and that it's certain to happen.

2 Pet. 3:15 (WEB) Regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also, according to the wisdom given to him, wrote to you;

This patience that God shows to us (verse 9 - his beloved elect) is salvation, as contrasted with his patience towards those who are not elect, which is merely putting up with their wickedness long enough to fulfil his purposes.

Ez. 18: 20-24 (WEB)
20 The soul who sins, he shall die: the son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son; the righteousness of the righteous shall be on him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be on him.
21 But if the wicked turn from all his sins that he has committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
22 None of his transgressions that he has committed shall be remembered against him: in his righteousness that he has done he shall live.
23 Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked? says the Lord Yahweh; and not rather that he should return from his way, and live?
24 But when the righteous turns away from his righteousness, and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? None of his righteous deeds that he has done shall be remembered: in his trespass that he has trespassed, and in his sin that he has sinned, in them shall he die.

Note that this is to Israel, under law. The law is all about, "Do this and live; do that and die.". We are not under law, but under grace, in the New Covenant, and, anyway, salvation has never been by attempting to keep the law.

Regarding verse 23, in particular: God tells them that he doesn't want them to be put to death, for law-breaking, but to turn back to law-keeping and live. This has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with salvation by grace through faith.

Matt. 23: 29-37 (WEB)
29 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you build the tombs of the prophets, and decorate the tombs of the righteous,
30 and say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we wouldn’t have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.’
31 Therefore you testify to yourselves that you are children of those who killed the prophets.
32 Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers.
33 You serpents, you offspring of vipers, how will you escape the judgment of Gehenna ?
34 Therefore, behold, I send to you prophets, wise men, and scribes. Some of them you will kill and crucify; and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city;
35 that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zachariah son of Barachiah, whom you killed between the sanctuary and the altar.
36 Most certainly I tell you, all these things will come upon this generation.
37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets, and stones those who are sent to her! How often I would have gathered your children together, even as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you would not!

This is towards the end of a long list of stern rebukes to the Pharisees and Saducees.

Re. verse 37: I've recently explained this verse, in a different post, so I'll just repeat some of that post here.

1) There are three sets of people mentioned here: Jerusalem (i.e. its religious rulers, the Pharisees and Saducees); the "children" (i.e. those who were ruled over);and Jesus himself.

2) Jesus wanted to gather to himself, not every single person, but those who were ruled over in general.

3) The Pharisees and Saducees were unwilling for this to happen, as was seen throughout Jesus' ministry.

4) In spite of this opposition, as we know from elsewhere, everyone the Father gave to Jesus did (and does) come to Jesus, and will be raised up at the last day.

John 6:37-39 (KJV)
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

John 6:43,44 (KJV)
43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

I was interacting with a "Free willer" on Facebook who quoted the "Choose this day whom you will serve". As I suspected, without any context at all that he offered, it was actually in the book of Deuteronomy and concerned the Israelites and had nothing to do with individual salvation!

They actually cherry pick the Bible. I've seen Atheists do the same thing. They never have any context in mind when they pick and choose Bible verses to back up their presuppositions. When you point out verses that support God's absolutely Sovereignty in salvation they have no answers except to point you back to passages that appear to support their presupposition.

 

[JIM]

If God knows that by creating you, you will end up in hell (and nothing can change what he knows), how has God not determined you will end up in hell by creating you? Note: God determined to bring you into existence and He upholds all things. He could have determined that you not be hell bound by not creating you. If you believe God can do anything then God could have created you so you would choose to belief. If you admit God can do this then you are admitting God is the ultimate determiner.

John 1:12 But to as many as did receive and welcome Him, He gave the right [the authority, the privilege] to become children of God, that is, to those who believe in (adhere to, trust in, and rely on) His name— 13 who were born, not of blood [natural conception], nor of the will of the flesh [physical impulse/free will], nor of the will of man [that of a natural father], but of God [that is, a divine and supernatural birth—they are born of God—spiritually transformed, renewed, sanctified]. Not only do the verses state we are “born again” by the will of God, but to put aside all doubt it doubles down and says man is NOT saved by man’s will.

 

[David1701]

I was interacting with a "Free willer" on Facebook who quoted the "Choose this day whom you will serve". As I suspected, without any context at all that he offered, it was actually in the book of Deuteronomy and concerned the Israelites and had nothing to do with individual salvation!

They actually cherry pick the Bible. I've seen Atheists do the same thing. They never have any context in mind when they pick and choose Bible verses to back up their presuppositions. When you point out verses that support God's absolutely Sovereignty in salvation they have no answers except to point you back to passages that appear to support their presupposition.

Yes, they often cite the "Choose you this day..." verse, without noticing that it's a sarcastic exhortation to choose between two sets of idols, if they don't want to follow the Lord. They also, as you've pointed out, never seem to notice that it's to Israel, under law, and is nothing to do with salvation by grace through faith.

 

[JIM]

I honestly don't understand people who say it is the power of our own faith that saves us who then turn around and say God saved them. It's completely contradictory.

I honestly don't understand people who say that either. I honestly don't even know anyone who says that except folks like you in trying to defend your own incorrect view. I certainly have never said that.

 

[Dave_Regenerated]

I honestly don't understand people who say that either. I honestly don't even know anyone who says that except folks like you in trying to defend your own incorrect view. I certainly have never said that.

Well face it, that is exactly what you are saying and always have said. Salvation to you is synergistic because you believe that you have to co-operate with God to merit the gift of salvation, the very first spiritual experience a person has of God. Since you will deny this, you are a monergist then? Please try to clear up the confusion here - either you said you believe that people can have genuine belief in God and the Bible without being regenerated first or you didn't. If you hold to that view, you need to read where James says that the demons also believe and tremble. Having belief is exactly the opposite of knowledge in salvation.

Who are "folks" like me? If you means Reformed Christians, you came to the right place, as this website is for them and was created for them. Now, if you are a Catholic or disagree with Reformed theology etc., it looks like "folks" like you would be a minority here for a reason, and we would try to understand all that. I hope I don't sound to you like some cliche robot just spewing antiquated buzz words.

If my view is incorrect, please point out how it is. Ad Hominems never work very nicely. Making bullet point comments with assertions and no detailed explication of them is not a serious or honest way of interacting with other people, so I will have to disagree with you that my view is incorrect.

 

[atpollard]

If God did not want anyone to be in hell, then just don’t create them in the first place.

... or don't create a Hell; create a purgatory and SAY SO!

 

[Dave_Regenerated]

... or don't create a Hell; create a purgatory and SAY SO!

I checked just now. There is nothing in Paul's Epistles or any other part of the Bible that says sin causes eternal hell.

I would love to be proven wrong.

 

[atpollard]

I honestly don't understand people who say it is the power of our own faith that saves us who then turn around and say God saved them. It's completely contradictory.

I think it is an inflated definition of Imageo Dei. God "flirts with us" and "WE fall in love" school of synergism. Without God's flirtations, we would still be lost, but OUR heart made the final choice to respond. [A conflation of Creator and creation ... and the roles of each.]

 

[Dave_Regenerated]

I think it is an inflated definition of Imageo Dei. God "flirts with us" and "WE fall in love" school of synergism. Without God's flirtations, we would still be lost, but OUR heart made the final choice to respond. [A conflation of Creator and creation ... and the roles of each.]

That's Romance. I don't even doubt it is possible. My point is that grace or God (they are synonyms) is behind everything anyway.

 

[atpollard]

I checked just now. There is nothing in Paul's Epistles or any other part of the Bible that says sin causes eternal hell.

I would love to be proven wrong.

Could you define "Hell", so we can converse from a common understanding [linguisticly speaking]?

As I understand it, God's Character creates the need for separation, Hell is just the term given to "there" (the somewhere that is NOT "with God").