All means all

[Arial]

So, are the `few` the `great multitude that no one can count? `

There are two ways. The wide gate. The narrow gate.
Many go through the wide gate.
Few go through the narrow gate----and yet in Rev we see a great multitude that no one can count.
Now if this saying about the gates is true, and of course it is;
There must be two multitudes. And the multitude that went through the wide gate must great must be a larger multitude than went through the narrow gate.

Remember we are talking about every man, woman, and child ever born and only two gates. Everyone of those born go through one gate or the other.

 

[atpollard]

So, are the `few` the `great multitude that no one can count? `

I think so (to the extent that anything in a vision full of symbolism is intended to be "literal").

Let's do a simple "what if" math exercise. There are 7 billion people in the world today. Just for this "game" let's say that 10% end up in heaven.

• 10% qualifies as "few" and 90% qualifies as "many" ... right?
• 10% of 7 billion people is 700,000,000 people.
  • That is greater than the population of North America!
  • That is roughly the entire population of Europe.
  • If all the people in North America or Europe gathered together in one place for a giant open-air rock concert and you were watching from a mountain ... would you describe that crowd as "a multitude that no one could count" (or would you start counting heads?)
• That was only based on 10%, while "few/many" could also be a 40%/60% split making that crowd 2,800,000,000 people!
  • That was only based on people alive TODAY, in 20-40 years the population will double.
  • Plus we need to add all of the people that already lived and died before us ... percentages (few/many) can remain unchanged but the total number of people in the "multitude" increases.

I have no idea what the correct percentages are, just that FEW requires less than 50% and MANY requires greater than 50%. However, I see "a great multitude that no one can count" as obtainable from the "FEW".

 

[3 Resurrections]

I have no idea what the correct percentages are, just that FEW requires less than 50% and MANY requires greater than 50%. However, I see "a great multitude that no one can count" as obtainable from the "FEW".

That "Few" entering the "narrow gate" was not speaking of the entirety of humanity since creation. It was specifically speaking of the "remnant" of first-century Israel at the time who would come to faith in the Messiah. Isaiah spoke of this "remnant" of that particular generation who would accept Jesus as being the prophesied Messiah. Paul also spoke of that then-existing "remnant" of Israel "at this present time" in the first century who were coming to faith in Christ. Though the number of the descendants of ethnic Israelites was "as the sand of the sea", yet only a remnant of those would be saved. The rest were blinded.

I believe the scriptures show a picture of the MAJORITY of all humanity being considered a child of God in the final analysis. The picture of a "harvest" of "wheat" and "tares" describes this as a WHEAT HARVEST - not a TARES HARVEST. Even in an ordinary crop being harvested, the vast bulk of the harvest is composed of the good seed resulting from what was originally sown - not the few weeds which sprang up among that harvest, and which are discarded.

Christ's "narrow gate" and "wide gate" have been mistakenly applied to ALL of mankind in total, and not to the specific generation of Jews with its "remnant" who accepted Him as the prophesied Messiah.

 

[atpollard]

That "Few" entering the "narrow gate" was not speaking of the entirety of humanity since creation. It was specifically speaking of the "remnant" of first-century Israel at the time who would come to faith in the Messiah. Isaiah spoke of this "remnant" of that particular generation who would accept Jesus as being the prophesied Messiah. Paul also spoke of that then-existing "remnant" of Israel "at this present time" in the first century who were coming to faith in Christ. Though the number of the descendants of ethnic Israelites was "as the sand of the sea", yet only a remnant of those would be saved. The rest were blinded.

I believe the scriptures show a picture of the MAJORITY of all humanity being considered a child of God in the final analysis. The picture of a "harvest" of "wheat" and "tares" describes this as a WHEAT HARVEST - not a TARES HARVEST. Even in an ordinary crop being harvested, the vast bulk of the harvest is composed of the good seed resulting from what was originally sown - not the few weeds which sprang up among that harvest, and which are discarded.

Christ's "narrow gate" and "wide gate" have been mistakenly applied to ALL of mankind in total, and not to the specific generation of Jews with its "remnant" who accepted Him as the prophesied Messiah.

Prove it by exegeting scripture.

I am taking the words at face value ... few people means few people ... with ALL people on a path to either LIFE or DESTRUCTION (as there is no "purgatory" or other third choice.)

Matthew 7:7-27 [NKJV]

7 "Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 8 "For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. 9 "Or what man is there among you who, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10 "Or if he asks for a fish, will he give him a serpent? 11 "If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask Him! 12 "Therefore, whatever you want men to do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets. ​

13 "Enter by the narrow gate; for wide [is] the gate and broad [is] the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14 "Because narrow [is] the gate and difficult [is] the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it. ​

15 "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 "You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thorn bushes or figs from thistles? 17 "Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 "A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor [can] a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 "Therefore by their fruits you will know them. ​

21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 "Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' 23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!' ​

24 "Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock: 25 "and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock. ​

26 "But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand: 27 "and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall."​

​

If Matthew was not for Gentiles, then why is it included and how is it "GOOD NEWS" for me? I am not a child of Jacob. My Fathers were never in Egypt. Your POV is bad news for the world.

No, I say the promises of God are for ME as well. I am part of "everyone" and "whoever". [Now prove me wrong from the TEXT.]

 

[3 Resurrections]

Prove it by exegeting scripture.

Paul quoted Isaiah 10:22,23 and Isaiah 1:9 in Romans 9:26-29. "Esaias also crieth concerning ISRAEL, Though the number of the children of ISRAEL be as the sand of the sea, a REMNANT shall be saved: For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth" (tes ges - the land of Israel). "And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha."

That particular time of the "remnant" of Israel being saved was pinned down to the time Paul was writing Romans 11:5. "Even so then AT THIS PRESENT TIME also there is A REMNANT according to the election of grace." God had not cast away His people from among the nation of ethnic Israel at that time, and Paul claimed to be one of that "remnant" of ethnic Israel who had obtained that grace.

We know that scripture presents a third of the number of angels who fell (Revelation 12:4), but the other two thirds of the angelic host were the "elect angels" who were preserved from falling. Why would God have a greater majority of the angelic host preserved in a righteous state and then have only the tiniest fraction of humanity be recipients of His grace? It doesn't make sense to have God favor a greater percentage of the angels than us, because He took up our cause as one of us in the incarnation instead of taking on the cause of angels. He went to more efforts to redeem mankind, so it doesn't make sense that these greater efforts to redeem mankind would result in only the tiniest percentage of all humanity becoming children of God. That idea doesn't conform to the pattern of the God of mercy who emphasizes the great love which He had for the world in sending His Son as one of us.

Also, it does not conform to the pattern Christ presented of a WHEAT harvest, with the vast majority of the crop being the wheat and not the tares. Christ never called it a TARES harvest. God is a lot more generous with His extension of grace to humanity than many give Him credit for. The mistaken interpretation of the "narrow gate" shows that we are too stingy when compared to the level of God's mercy.

 

[atpollard]

Paul quoted Isaiah 10:22,23 and Isaiah 1:9 in Romans 9:26-29. "Esaias also crieth concerning ISRAEL, Though the number of the children of ISRAEL be as the sand of the sea, a REMNANT shall be saved: For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth" (tes ges - the land of Israel). "And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha."

Respectfully, that indicates that Paul spoke of "a remnant", however Paul did not write the Gospel of Matthew so that is a non sequitur for the message of Jesus recorded in Matthew.

I leave you to your preconceptions and decline to join your eisegesis of Matthew. I will stick with what Matthew recorded that Jesus said as "meaning what it says" ... everyone ... falls into one of two groups.

 

[3 Resurrections]

I leave you to your preconceptions and decline to join your eisegesis of Matthew. I will stick with what Matthew recorded that Jesus said as "meaning what it says" ... everyone ... falls into one of two groups.

Christ said of Himself that "I am not sent but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel", when speaking to the Canaanite woman. His ministry was to FIRST offer the gospel to the lost sheep of His own nation of Israel. The Apostles agreed that this is what happened. Paul and Barnabas said to the Christ-rejecting Jews, "It was necessary that the word of God should FIRST have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles." (Acts 13:46).

John wrote that "He came unto His own, and His own received Him not" (John 1:11). As a general rule, the generation of Israelites which Christ personally ministered among rejected His presentation of the kingdom and rejected Him as being Daniel's prophesied Messiah. Only a comparatively small "remnant" of the Jews of Christ's own generation believed on Him, as Paul testified in agreement with Isaiah.

The massive success of the gospel going out to the nations (as the risen Christ commanded at that point in the great commission) was predicted by the prophet in Isaiah 66:20 and Isaiah 54:2-3 - that the tent stakes and curtains would have to be enlarged greatly to accommodate the influx of the nations coming to worship the God of heaven. Also, the mammoth size of the New Jerusalem presented in Revelation is the indication that the gospel's success among the nations of the world would need that massive city size to receive the numberless multitude that would enter those gates in salvation.

I take the whole of scripture to understand God's full intent for the gospel's eventual overwhelming success among the nations. And I haven't even mentioned yet Christ's parables of the growing mustard seed, the growth of the "rock" kingdom which will fill the whole world with its effects, the leaven in the bread dough that will fully spread within it, and the increase of Christ's government and of His peace which shall have no end.

 

[atpollard]

Matthew 7:13-14 [NKJV]
13 "Enter by the narrow gate; for wide [is] the gate and broad [is] the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14 "Because narrow [is] the gate and difficult [is] the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

... says what it means; means what it says.

 

[3 Resurrections]

.. says what it means; means what it says.

Yes, it does. The "narrow gate" which Christ was presenting was for the "lost sheep of the house of Israel", which He said He was sent to. Only a "remnant" of His own people of the nation of Israel would find that "narrow gate" compared to the many of His own people who rejected Him as the prophesied Messiah. Why do you think Christ said those people would be saying "Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in your name, and cast out demons...?" etc. This was the nation of Israel claiming that they had an identity as God's people, but who were basing their claim as children of God on their ethnic standing and having done works in the name of their Lord.

If you adopt the conditions of the "narrow gate" to represent the total percentage of all mankind from creation to the final judgment, then this would totally contradict all those parables, (such as the leaven of the kingdom of heaven permeating the entire bread dough), which Christ gave to show the prevailing influence of the gospel throughout the entire world of nations. Scripture does not contradict itself. "The scriptures cannot be broken". Your presentation of what the "narrow gate" is does not reconcile these different scriptures with each other.

 

[Arial]

Yes, it does. The "narrow gate" which Christ was presenting was for the "lost sheep of the house of Israel", which He said He was sent to.

He also said "I have other sheep not of this pasture."

Why do you think Christ said those people would be saying "Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in your name, and cast out demons...?" etc. This was the nation of Israel claiming that they had an identity as God's people, but who were basing their claim as children of God on their ethnic standing and having done works in the name of their Lord.

Does that negate the universal truth of what He was saying? There are many Gentiles today standing in the church in that same boat.

If you adopt the conditions of the "narrow gate" to represent the total percentage of all mankind from creation to the final judgment, then this would totally contradict all those parables, (such as the leaven of the kingdom of heaven permeating the entire bread dough), which Christ gave to show the prevailing influence of the gospel throughout the entire world of nations.

A good place go with that argument is how does it contradict the parables---and surely you don't mean all of them as they were not all dealing with the same thing.

 

[3 Resurrections]

He also said "I have other sheep not of this pasture."

Yes, of course, that's not under debate. What I am emphasizing, though, is that Christ was sent FIRST to the Jews, as Peter said on the day of Pentecost in Acts 3:25-26. "Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed. Unto you FIRST God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities."

As Paul and Barnabas had once said in Acts 13:46, it was necessary that the gospel was FIRST presented to the Jews ("to the Jew FIRST, and also to the Greek"). This was necessary because of Daniel's prophecy that the Messiah would "confirm the covenant with many" of Daniel's people for that last 70th week from AD 30 until AD 37. After that last 70th week period of the prophecy had expired in AD 37, and the majority of the Jews had rejected Christ as the Messiah with only the "remnant" becoming believers, then the explosion of evangelistic emphasis went instead to the nations of the world, with Paul as the "Apostle to the Gentiles".

So there is a sort of dividing line between the end of the 70-week prophecy period and the ministry of Paul the Apostle being commissioned by God to go to the Gentiles. The "narrow gate" applied to those Israelites in that last 70th week period, when Christ was sent to the "lost sheep of the house of Israel" FIRST. The gospel evangelism started at Jerusalem, then all Judea, then to Samaria, then unto the ends of the earth, in that order of progression. Scripture says that the Gentiles gladly received this news, in contrast to Christ coming to His own, and His own receiving Him not.

Does that negate the universal truth of what He was saying? There are many Gentiles today standing in the church in that same boat.

No, those who were Gentiles in Christ's day would not have claimed status as a child of God due to their ethnic standing, but this WAS a problem with the ethnic Jews who thought that merely being born a physical descendent of Abraham made them automatically a member of God's kingdom. This was ethnic, unbelieving Jews protesting their being cast aside by saying "Lord, Lord..."

A good place go with that argument is how does it contradict the parables---and surely you don't mean all of them as they were not all dealing with the same thing.

The parable I am speaking of is Christ's example comparing the kingdom of heaven to the leaven in the bread dough, and the symbolism of the growth of the mustard seed. We also have Daniel's "rock" kingdom growing to fill the whole world, and the promised increase of Christ's government and peace which would have no end. All of these examples set side by side with the "narrow gate" description don't present the same picture. These are antithetical to each other. So the "narrow gate" can't possibly be referring to the ENTIRETY of humanity being limited to just a tiny fraction of them receiving salvation. There are too many examples of the prevailing power of the Holy Spirit bringing MANY sons into glory - not just a few by comparison. The percentage of all mankind who receives salvation is much, much higher than those who do not.

 

[Arial]

Yes, of course, that's not under debate. What I am emphasizing, though, is that Christ was sent FIRST to the Jews, as Peter said on the day of Pentecost in Acts 3:25-26. "Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed. Unto you FIRST God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities."

That is not being disputed. What was in question was the narrow gate passage only applying to Israel.

No, those who were Gentiles in Christ's day would not have claimed status as a child of God due to their ethnic standing, but this WAS a problem with the ethnic Jews who thought that merely being born a physical descendent of Abraham made them automatically a member of God's kingdom. This was ethnic, unbelieving Jews protesting their being cast aside by saying "Lord, Lord..."

I will repeat the question. Does that negate the fact that it also applies to Jew and Gentile alike? That it is a true statement period?

. The percentage of all mankind who receives salvation is much, much higher than those who do not.

Would you care to prove that? I think I will stick with what Jesus said about it, and the evidence before our eyes.

 

[Josheb]

That is not being disputed. What was in question was the narrow gate passage only applying to Israel.

If the centurion of Matthew 8 is the same centurion of Acts 10 then definitely not applicable only to (bloodline) Israel.

I will repeat the question. Does that negate the fact that it also applies to Jew and Gentile alike? That it is a true statement period?

Would you care to prove that? I think I will stick with what Jesus said about it, and the evidence before our eyes.

(taps fingers with chin in other hand awaiting answers)
.

 

[Josheb]

Yes, it does. The "narrow gate" which Christ was presenting was for the "lost sheep of the house of Israel", which He said He was sent to. Only a "remnant" of His own people of the nation of Israel would find that "narrow gate" compared to the many of His own people who rejected Him as the prophesied Messiah. Why do you think Christ said those people would be saying "Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in your name, and cast out demons...?" etc. This was the nation of Israel claiming that they had an identity as God's people, but who were basing their claim as children of God on their ethnic standing and having done works in the name of their Lord.

If you adopt the conditions of the "narrow gate" to represent the total percentage of all mankind from creation to the final judgment, then this would totally contradict all those parables, (such as the leaven of the kingdom of heaven permeating the entire bread dough), which Christ gave to show the prevailing influence of the gospel throughout the entire world of nations. Scripture does not contradict itself. "The scriptures cannot be broken". Your presentation of what the "narrow gate" is does not reconcile these different scriptures with each other.

The number of people saved from sin can be multitudinous (Rev. 7:9) and still numerically smaller than those not saved. The appeal to a remnant proves that.

 

[3 Resurrections]

I will repeat the question. Does that negate the fact that it also applies to Jew and Gentile alike? That it is a true statement period?

NO, that "narrow gate" applied to Israel, and only to that generation of Israel which Christ ministered to personally. It did not apply to the Gentiles. The OT prophets predicted that the Gentiles would come to the light in massive numbers.

Would you care to prove that? I think I will stick with what Jesus said about it, and the evidence before our eyes.

Apparently you don't think much of the optimistic statements of the scriptures that portray the growth of the kingdom of God in increasing numbers that will fill the earth with its effects. I find that opinions about the promised progress of God's kingdom in this world are flavored by people's news feeds. The Holy Spirit operates like the wind, and you won't necessarily see this on the evening news, which caters to the thought that "if it bleeds, it leads." We are not capable of seeing with our own eyes the inner workings of the Holy Spirit in people of every nation. God has better "eyesight" than ours.

Consider this also: The majority of conceived mankind over human history has never seen the light of day, but dies in utero or has been aborted, or has died by some childhood disease. Now, I am not saying that unborn infants or babies and young children are automatically considered to be children of God, or that there is anything such as a mythical "age of accountability". However, God does seem to give merciful consideration for those in the scriptures who don't even know their right hand from their left, or are never exposed to the presentation of the gospel. If the majority of humanity has God giving some level of merciful consideration to their case, add to that the number of adults who receive salvation, and you are already talking about the majority of mankind being present in heaven after the final judgment.

 

[Josheb]

NO, that "narrow gate" applied to Israel, and only to that generation of Israel which Christ ministered to personally. It did not apply to the Gentiles. The OT prophets predicted that the Gentiles would come to the light in massive numbers.

Do you also believe that about all else Jesus is recorded to have said in the gospels? It was only for Israel?

 

[Josheb]

Apparently you don't think much of....

If you do not keep the posts about the posts, I will report your posts.

Start over. Keep the other poster out of the content and make sure the posts are topically relevant to the op (all means all).

 

[3 Resurrections]

Start over. Keep the other poster out of the content and make sure the posts are topically relevant to the op (all means all).

I thought the subject of the OP was what percentage of humanity receives salvation - all, some, a few, most, whatever ratio scripture describes. That is what I'm discussing. Isn't that the topic?

 

[Arial]

NO, that "narrow gate" applied to Israel, and only to that generation of Israel which Christ ministered to personally. It did not apply to the Gentiles. The OT prophets predicted that the Gentiles would come to the light in massive numbers.

So does that mean that whatever Jesus said to Israel, which is everything He said, only applies to Israel and no one else ever?

How many are in a massive number? Are there more in one massive number than any other massive number? And if it is a massive number of Gentiles who come to the light is that the few who find the narrow gate? I can't find any logic or reason in what you say.

Apparently you don't think much of the optimistic statements of the scriptures that portray the growth of the kingdom of God in increasing numbers that will fill the earth with its effects. I find that opinions about the promised progress of God's kingdom in this world are flavored by people's news feeds. The Holy Spirit operates like the wind, and you won't necessarily see this on the evening news, which caters to the thought that "if it bleeds, it leads." We are not capable of seeing with our own eyes the inner workings of the Holy Spirit in people of every nation. God has better "eyesight" than ours.

What are you talking about? What does any of it have to do with the wide and narrow gates?

Consider this also: The majority of conceived mankind over human history has never seen the light of day, but dies in utero or has been aborted, or has died by some childhood disease. Now, I am not saying that unborn infants or babies and young children are automatically considered to be children of God, or that there is anything such as a mythical "age of accountability". However, God does seem to give merciful consideration for those in the scriptures who don't even know their right hand from their left, or are never exposed to the presentation of the gospel. If the majority of humanity has God giving some level of merciful consideration to their case, add to that the number of adults who receive salvation, and you are already talking about the majority of mankind being present in heaven after the final judgment.

Consider it? There is way to much speculation involved for me to consider it. It doesn't change the fact that Jesus said many would go to destruction and few would go into His kingdom. Many is not a number. And few usually denotes three in our everyday language. Jesus was making a comparison. Many, few. WIde, narrow. Destruction, life. Many is more than few. I believe Him. He wasn't speculating or being illogical.

 

[3 Resurrections]

What are you talking about? What does any of it have to do with the wide and narrow gate

The "many" and the "few" were Christ's comments regarding His own people and that generation. Not everything which Christ said applied to everyone across the board for all of human history. Some things were specifically for His own generation to experience, and no other generation (like the return in that generation of the seven-fold numbers of unclean spirits more wicked than the ones Christ cast out of His fellow Israelites). I believe that limited application of some things Christ said also included His comments about the "many" of His generation of fellow Israelites who would reject Him and the "few" (the "remnant") who would believe and follow Him.