Age of the earth...Young or old?

[Binyawmene]

That is absolute nonsense.

You are welcome to demonstrate gravity on earth without the sun and moon.

 

[David1701]

Sure. The simple answer is mass. The law of gravity is what goes up must come back down. Gravity is "an invisible force that pulls objects toward each other. Earth's gravity is what keeps you on the ground and what makes things fall." The gravity of Earth comes from the mass distribution within Earth and the centrifugal force from the Earth's rotation.

The centrifugal force is in opposition to Earth's gravity. Gravity is the reason why we don't fly off the Earth, due to the Earth's rotation.

Without the sun and the moon, there would be no gravity.

This is nonsense.

It's obvious the sun was there in Genesis 1:1 "God created the heavens"...

It's obvious that the sun was not there in Genesis 1:1, since God created the sun on Day 4.

...and Isaiah 45:12 "stretched out the heavens, and all their host" (outter space where planets, moons, and stars are located, and also earth Job 26:7) and without the gravitational pull between the sun and earth. The water on earth would be foating or even drifting off into space. And the moon came on the scene in Genesis 1:9 "waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place" (Proverbs 8:29, Job 26:10) without the gravitational pull of the earth and moon, then earth would reamin a water-world so to speak.

Well, without the moon's gravitational pull, there would be no tides, so that the oceans and seas would stagnate and die.

 

[makesends]

You clearly either didn't read my post fully, or didn't understand it; nor did you understand the Scripture.

The blood of all the prophets, shed from the foundation of the world, means starting at the foundation of the world, not that they were all slain then! In other words, Abel was slain near the foundation of the world, and other prophets were slain later.

I neither assumed that you claimed that Abel's murder was billions of years ago, neither was that what I posted. What I posted meant that Abel's murder was near the foundation of the world, not billions of years later.

That's not good reasoning.

Then was the Lamb slain "from the foundation of the world" progressively slain?

Were those chosen "from the foundation of the world" some chosen "near" the beginning, and the rest chosen as they came along —some not yet chosen because they haven't been born?

If you can't even understand simple posts and Scriptures, then you are far out of your depth for this kind of discussion.

Watch that like the rest of us, the standard you use against another person will be used to measure YOU.

 

[makesends]

You are welcome to demonstrate gravity on earth without the sun and moon.

Haha! But you have no way to demonstrate gravity on earth due to the existence of the sun and moon.

 

[Binyawmene]

The centrifugal force is in opposition to Earth's gravity. Gravity is the reason why we don't fly off the Earth, due to the Earth's rotation.

I don't understand the point you are trying to make here. But, yes, "due to the earth's rotation." Common sense. It takes both the earth and the sun to create gravity on earth and also in space. The earth's rotation. Without the gravity pull of the sun, then the earth itself will just float in space. And the water on earth will float away too. Can you demonstrate earth's gravity without the sun and moon? Or, if that question is too hard, then here is another question. What caused the earth to spin on its axis?

a). A gravitational pull between the sun and earth.
b). The earth spin on its axis without the sun.
c). There was no gravity, and the earth didn't spin on its axis since there is no sun.

It's obvious that the sun was not there in Genesis 1:1, since God created the sun on Day 4.

This is nonsense.

Well, without the moon's gravitational pull, there would be no tides, so that the oceans and seas would stagnate and die.

That's correct. So why are you saying God created the sun and moon on day 4?

 

[Binyawmene]

Haha! But you have no way to demonstrate gravity on earth due to the existence of the sun and moon.

I know, right. lol.

 

[David1701]

That's not good reasoning.

Then was the Lamb slain "from the foundation of the world" progressively slain?

Were those chosen "from the foundation of the world" some chosen "near" the beginning, and the rest chosen as they came along —some not yet chosen because they haven't been born?

Watch that like the rest of us, the standard you use against another person will be used to measure YOU.

You have misunderstood as well, although not quite as badly as the other poster.

Jesus was slain from the foundation of the world, because God had already decided that would happen, from the foundation of the world; also, since it only applies to one person and one event, at one time, the contextual elements are entirely different. You are comparing apples and oranges.

Those chosen from the foundation of the world were chosen at that time. There was just the one choice, not a progression of choices. Again, you are trying to compare things that differ.

The level of discussion, by some posters, is not very high...

 

[David1701]

I don't understand the point you are trying to make here. But, yes, "due to the earth's rotation." Common sense. It takes both the earth and the sun to create gravity on earth and also in space. The earth's rotation. Without the gravity pull of the sun, then the earth itself will just float in space. And the water on earth will float away too. Can you demonstrate earth's gravity without the sun and moon? Or, if that question is too hard, then here is another question. What caused the earth to spin on its axis?

a). A gravitational pull between the sun and earth.
b). The earth spin on its axis without the sun.
c). There was no gravity, and the earth didn't spin on its axis since there is no sun.



This is nonsense.



That's correct. So why are you saying God created the sun and moon on day 4?

Gravity exists on all bodies of matter. It does not take the sun to create gravity on Earth.

God caused the Earth to spin.

The Bible states that God created light on Day 1, but he did not create the sun until Day 4. If you think that that is nonsense, then you do not believe the Bible.

Here's what God says about Day 4 of the creation week.

Gen. 1: 14-19 (VW)
14 Then God said, Let there be luminaries in the firmament of the heavens, to distinguish the day from the night; and let them be for signs and seasons, and for days and years;
15 and let them be for luminaries in the firmament of the heavens to give light upon the earth: thus.
16 And God made two great luminaries: the greater luminary to rule the day, and the lesser luminary to rule the night, and also the stars.
17 And God set them in the firmament of the heavens to shine upon the earth,
18 and to rule over the day and over the night, and to separate the light from the darkness. And God saw that it was good.
19 Thus, the evening and the morning: Day Four.

As you can see, God created the sun, moon and stars on Day 4.

 

[JIM]

You are welcome to demonstrate gravity on earth without the sun and moon.

No, you are the one who has declared, contrary to anything ever found in science literature, that without the sun and the moon there is no gravity. Thus, it is up to you to demonstrate the nonsense you have stated.

 

[Binyawmene]

As you can see, God created the sun, moon and stars on Day 4.

There was a sun in Genesis 1:1 because of the stretching out of the heavens. God has fine-tuned all the laws, constants, and equations of physics for life to exist on earth (Psalms 8:3, and earth hang on nothing because of gravity Job 26:7) and in verse 2 there was darkness over the face of the deep. If you were looking up into space (face of the deep), then you wouldn't be able to see the constellations of the south (Job 9:9, Job 38:31).

Why? Because in verse 3 there was also water on earth. Not only was there gravity to hold the water in place, but also a hydrologic cycle between the sun and earth (Job 38:9). The lights from space was already present and shinning but could not pass through the early earth's atmosphere. It would be like standing on the planet Venus and looking up. You would not be able to see any lights from space because of the oblique atmosphere. So when God said, "Let there be light;" he is not creating the sun's light itself since the sun is already there, rather the early earth's atmosphere changes from oblique to translucent atmosphere. And the earth's atmosphere would naturally take an unspecified long period of time to change.

It was enough light to separate "light" from "darkness" but when looking up into space you still would not be able to see any moons, stars, and planets. You cannot see visible objects in space from a translucent atmosphere. Now in Genesis 1:14-18, the plant life was already created and need light to grow. The plants were giving off oxygen into the atmosphere. After an unspecified long period of time the atmosphere became transparent to the point that our sun and moon, and the planets and stars was made visible. Not made in the sense of created, but made to appear so that you can mark the seasons, days, and years.

 

[Binyawmene]

No, you are the one who has declared, contrary to anything ever found in science literature, that without the sun and the moon there is no gravity. Thus, it is up to you to demonstrate the nonsense you have stated.

Since you can't demonstrate the gravity on earth without the sun and moon. Can you Scripturally explain how water didn't float and drift away in Genesis 1:3? A Bible verse? God of the gaps? You can't explain it, so God did it. But there is no Bible verse to demonstrate it. All you can do is appeal to common sense and basic science that there is gravity.

 

[David1701]

There was a sun in Genesis 1:1 because of the stretching out of the heavens. God has fine-tuned all the laws, constants, and equations of physics for life to exist on earth (Psalms 8:3, and earth hang on nothing because of gravity Job 26:7) and in verse 2 there was darkness over the face of the deep. If you were looking up into space (face of the deep), then you wouldn't be able to see the constellations of the south (Job 9:9, Job 38:31).

Why? Because in verse 3 there was also water on earth. Not only was there gravity to hold the water in place, but also a hydrologic cycle between the sun and earth (Job 38:9). The lights from space was already present and shinning but could not pass through the early earth's atmosphere. It would be like standing on the planet Venus and looking up. You would not be able to see any lights from space because of the oblique atmosphere. So when God said, "Let there be light;" he is not creating the sun's light itself since the sun is already there, rather the early earth's atmosphere changes from oblique to translucent atmosphere. And the earth's atmosphere would naturally take an unspecified long period of time to change.

It was enough light to separate "light" from "darkness" but when looking up into space you still would not be able to see any moons, stars, and planets. You cannot see visible objects in space from a translucent atmosphere. Now in Genesis 1:14-18, the plant life was already created and need light to grow. The plants were giving off oxygen into the atmosphere. After an unspecified long period of time the atmosphere became transparent to the point that our sun and moon, and the planets and stars was made visible. Not made in the sense of created, but made to appear so that you can mark the seasons, days, and years.

I see; so, Moses got it all wrong! Well, isn't it great that we have your "wisdom" to correct him!

 

[makesends]

I don't understand the point you are trying to make here. But, yes, "due to the earth's rotation." Common sense. It takes both the earth and the sun to create gravity on earth and also in space. The earth's rotation. Without the gravity pull of the sun, then the earth itself will just float in space. And the water on earth will float away too. Can you demonstrate earth's gravity without the sun and moon? Or, if that question is too hard, then here is another question. What caused the earth to spin on its axis?

a). A gravitational pull between the sun and earth.
b). The earth spin on its axis without the sun.
c). There was no gravity, and the earth didn't spin on its axis since there is no sun.

The only sense I can make of what you are saying here is if you would instead say that the sun and moon affect the force of the earth's gravity. They do NOT create the earth's gravity. It has its own, just as the sun and the moon have their own.

 

[makesends]

David1701 said:
You clearly either didn't read my post fully, or didn't understand it; nor did you understand the Scripture.

The blood of all the prophets, shed from the foundation of the world, means starting at the foundation of the world, not that they were all slain then! In other words, Abel was slain near the foundation of the world, and other prophets were slain later.

I neither assumed that you claimed that Abel's murder was billions of years ago, neither was that what I posted. What I posted meant that Abel's murder was near the foundation of the world, not billions of years later.

You have misunderstood as well, although not quite as badly as the other poster.

Jesus was slain from the foundation of the world, because God had already decided that would happen, from the foundation of the world; also, since it only applies to one person and one event, at one time, the contextual elements are entirely different. You are comparing apples and oranges.

Those chosen from the foundation of the world were chosen at that time. There was just the one choice, not a progression of choices. Again, you are trying to compare things that differ.

The level of discussion, by some posters, is not very high...

So if "from the foundation of the world" world means from the foundation of the world for election and atonement, being one-time acts of God, whether predetermined or not, how does, "The blood of all the prophets, shed from the foundation of the world, means starting at the foundation of the world, not that they were all slain then! In other words, Abel was slain near the foundation of the world, and other prophets were slain later.", mean that the slaying began near the foundation of the world, and not that it was a done thing "from the foundation of the world." Are you implying that God had not decided from the foundation of the world that these prophets would be slain? Did it happen in a vacuum?

Christ's sacrifice, and the Salvation of the Elect, are done in this temporal realm, yet God says they are accomplished. So with everything that God has decided. I am a bit curious what you think God has not decided.

 

[Sereni-tea]

The Bible is FULL of such things, including narrative passages (in fact, often narrative passages).

Here are some examples.

Genesis 32:1--33:20


A Jacob continues his journey to Canaan (32:1a)
B Angels of God encounter Jacob and he names the place "two camps" (32:1b-2)
C Jacob's entourage to Esau (32:3-6)
D Jacob fearfully prepares to meet Esau (32:7-21)
E Jacob and his entourage prepares to meet Esau (32:7-21)
X Jacob wrestles with a "man" and his name is changed to "Israel" (32:24-32)
E' Jacob prepares entourage to meet Esau (33:1-2)
D' Jacob meets Esau and bows seven times (33:3)
C' Jacob and Esau greet each other (33:4-7)
B' Jacob explains his "two camps" to Esau and departs (33:8-16)
A' Jacob arrives in Canaan (33:17-20)

In an extended chiasmus, like the one above, other chiastic structures may be contained.


Genesis 32:1-31


A The angels of God encounter Jacob -- place name changed to "Mahanaim" (1-2)
B Jacob sent messengers, listing possessions to Esau (3-8)
X Jacob's prayer to the LORD (9-12)
B' Jacob sent messengers and gifts to Esau (13-21)
A' A "man" opposes Jacob, blesses and changes his name to Israel, after which Jacob
renames the place as "Peniel" (22-31)


Jacob's invocation in verses 9-12 may also be structured as follows.


Genesis 32:9-12


Introduction: Jacob's invocation (9a)


A God's message to Jacob while in Haran (9b)
B God's promise of prosperity to Jacob (9c)
C Jacob's confession (10a)
D Jacob left Canaan only with a staff (10b)
X The Jordan River: a place of contrast (10c)
D' Jacob returns to Canaan with "two camps" (10d)
C' Jacob's petition (11)
B' God's promise of prosperity to Jacob (12a)
A' God's message to Jacob while in Canaan (12b)


and


Genesis 32:22-31

A Jacob did not cross the Jabbok that night, but remained alone (22-24a)
B A "man" wrestles with Jacob (24b-25)
C The "man's" request to Jacob (26a)
D Jacob requests a blessing (26b)
E The "man" asks Jacob his name (27a)
X Jacob's name changed to "Israel" (27b-28)
E' Jacob asks the "man" his name (29a-b)
D' The "man" blesses Jacob (29c)
C' Jacob's response by naming the place "Peniel" (30a)
B' Jacob says that he has seen God "face to face" (30b)
A' The sun rose upon Jacob as he crossed over Penuel alone (31)



Genesis 38:1-30


Introduction: Judah leaves his father's homestead and fathers three sons (1-5)


A The childless widow (6-11)


B a Tamar exchanges her widow's garb for that of a prostitute (14)
b Judah's proposition to Tamar (15-16b)
x Exchange of pledges (16c-18b)
b' Judah's consummation with Tamar (18c)
a' Tamar exchanges her prostitute's garb for that of a widow (19)


X a The kid is sent for the pledge; Tamar is not found (20)
b The Adullamite's inquiry about the prostitute (21a)
x The town people's response (21b)
b' The Adullamite's report to Judah (22)
a' The pledge is forfeited; Tamar is not found (23)


B' a Judah is informed that Tamar has a child by harlotry (24a-b)
b Judah's edict that Tamar should be burned (24c)
x Judah recognizes the items of his pledge (25-26a)
b' Judah's edict that Tamar is more righteous than he (26b)
a' Judah does not have relations with Tamar again (26c)


A' The birth of twins to a widow (27-30)

etc., etc., etc.

Yes, you have identified other passages with chiasmus. Indeed many passages in Scripture have this structure.
Now tell me how they also have:

• intricate structure
• rhythm
• parallelism
• repetition
• lavish use of number symbolism

since that is what I asked. The point is that Genesis 1 has all of these together. Not just one of them.

 

[Binyawmene]

The only sense I can make of what you are saying here is if you would instead say that the sun and moon affect the force of the earth's gravity. They do NOT create the earth's gravity. It has its own, just as the sun and the moon have their own.

I'm certain you don't know, or you would have demonstrated gravity. I know the difference between gravity on earthy and gravity in space. I also understand what you are saying, and I agree. Sure, the moon affects the sea tides, and the sun affects the atmosphere, without the sun there would be no water cycle or rain. However, what I am saying is that the "earth gravity" is caused by the sun and moon too.

The earth's gravity basically originates at the center of the earth's core. It's a force (so to speak) that is tugging you and everything else on earth to the center of the earth. Your car. Trees. etc. Even tugging at the sun and moon, which cause the earth to spin on its axis, and also to rotate around the sun. This force is very weak and cannot push you through the floor of your house. And push you all the way down into the 'fiery' center core of the earth. It can only tug. Why weak and can only tug? Because the sun's gravitational pull on the center of the earth's core and the earth's core gravitational pull on the sun. The sun is bigger and stronger which causes the force to be weak. Same with the moon. But the earth is bigger and strong than the moon. So, there is a gravitational or another force that is strong and is pushing upward from both the sun/moon and the earth itself. The ground (the solid surface of the earth) causes a balance between the tugging and the pushing is what we call gravity.

If you believe the sun and earth was created on the 4th. day, then can you demonstrate gravity on earth without the sun and moon? Why didn't the water float or drift away? Because there is a sun and gravity.

 

[CrowCross]

Sure. The simple answer is mass. The law of gravity is what goes up must come back down. Gravity is "an invisible force that pulls objects toward each other. Earth's gravity is what keeps you on the ground and what makes things fall." The gravity of Earth comes from the mass distribution within Earth and the centrifugal force from the Earth's rotation. Without the sun and the moon, there would be no gravity. It's obvious the sun was there in Genesis 1:1 "God created the heavens" and Isaiah 45:12 "stretched out the heavens, and all their host" (outter space where planets, moons, and stars are located, and also earth Job 26:7) and without the gravitational pull between the sun and earth. The water on earth would be foating or even drifting off into space. And the moon came on the scene in Genesis 1:9 "waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place" (Proverbs 8:29, Job 26:10) without the gravitational pull of the earth and moon, then earth would reamin a water-world so to speak.

You contradicted yourself...

You said in the above post...

The gravity of Earth comes from the mass distribution within Earth and the centrifugal force from the Earth's rotation. Without the sun and the moon, there would be no gravity.......are you now saying without the sun and moon there would be no mass distribution within Earth or centrifugal force from the earth rotation???

 

[Sereni-tea]

And I've pointed out that your claim is untrue. The heavens and the earth were created on Day 1, then light was created, also on Day 1.

The heavens and the earth were created on Day 1, as was light, but not the sun, moon or stars. So wait, what do we mean by heavens?

And I've pointed out that light was created on Day 1, then the sun was created on Day 4.

Yes, you have pointed it out, but you haven't explained how there was light called 'Day' (when there was no sun) in a 'straight-forward' manner.

Conjectures about what the "waters above" are (e.g. clouds) are irrelevant to our discussion.

Irrelevant to our discussion about the plain meaning of the text? I disagree.

Genesis 2 is mostly a recap of Day 6, with much more detail.

Except the 'order' (this happened, then that happened, etc) doesn't mesh too well with Genesis 1.

What do you mean by "interpreted"? God put Adam into a deep sleep for surgery (as we do nowadays). There is absolutely nothing difficult to understand about this, and there is no need for esoteric "interpretations"; it means what is says and says what it means (there's an antimetabole for you).

And this idea is supported where else in Scripture? There is nothing difficult because it is what we in our modern world understand. But is it the way the ancient thought? What did they know about surgery? Would they really have understood it this way?

Straightforward, yes; everyday, no.

Really? Straight-forward? Does your idea of straight-forward mean reading the English words without giving the original Hebrew any thought?

Because you have used those claimed contexts to contradict the plain meaning, resulting in an esoteric interpretation requiring arcane knowledge. This is not how to interpret the Bible.

You are very wrong. Hermeneutics requires a good understanding of the literary and cultural contexts of a passage. By arcane knowledge do you mean the original Hebrew text and its original ancient Israelite culture?

 

[CrowCross]

Without the sun and the moon, there would be no gravity.

This is nonsense.

I agree David1701

 

[CrowCross]

Except the 'order' (this happened, then that happened, etc) doesn't mesh too well with Genesis 1.

There is no problem with the order.